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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by House P View Post
    The 1991 season ended OK, so that is the precedent that I am going with!
    Negative...you miss the part about losing to UNC! Unacceptable. That team was a failure.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    Negative...you miss the part about losing to UNC! Unacceptable. That team was a failure.
    Pot. Kettle.

    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  3. #143
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is online now Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    Is it me, or does Tre's D seem to be a tad on the leaky side recently? I know the numbers have Duke as a top 10 D but it seems like any team with a touch of athleticism can get whatever they want on offense. I would think that Tre, JGold, Cas, Wendell and Vernon would be a pretty good defensive unit.
    This is an interesting observation that I wouldn't doubt, although it was hard to pinpoint Tre's defense in an overall subpar team effort yesterday. I will say that last year he was able to focus entirely on his D, and be a secondary offensive piece. Now he's exerting more effort offensively, which may be coming at a price on the defensive end.

    It actually reminds me of a similar situation at Michigan: last year, Jon Teske was the fifth option offensively, and focused on cleaning up the glass and being a defensive stopper at the rim. This year he's been the Wolverine's second option offensively, and his defense fell off a cliff. I think that comes from a combination of playing more minutes and having to exert a ton of effort offensively. Notably, over the past few weeks with Michigan's backup center stepping up big time, allowing Teske more rest, his and the team's defense has stepped back up considerably.
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  4. #144
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    I'm late to this thread but having watched K's press conference, I cannot imagine a greater criticism that K can level at his team than "we were not competitive".

  5. #145
    Frustrating game to watch. Hats off to the Pack (now repeat the effort with FSU and @cheats). Johnson was lights out

    We were clearly out of focus. If nothing else, free throws are the indicator (10 of 22 - really?). Some horrendous passes. Daniels in the first 10 minutes off the ball screen and Funderburk not being blocked out in the second half. Not communicating on defense or offense. Where is the drive and kick? Lots of poor positioning on rebounds. Even the coaching seemed passive.

    We have looked awful in our other 3 losses. This one can go with them.

    Next game

    PS - Greenberg should not do games. Enough said on that.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lar77 View Post
    Greenberg should not do games. Enough said on that.
    Amen to that. That was one of the least impartial performances I've ever seen from a commentator of a national TV broadcast. It was infuriating to hear him talk nonstop about what State needed to do to win the game, even when they were already up by 20. Somebody just give that guy a NC State cheerleader outfit.

  7. #147
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    I predict this winter storm will be a bigger debacle than Duke's performance last night. Is that possible?

  8. #148
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    Coach K Press Conference

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS7Kmil3pTQ

    Pretty sobering stuff. I think Coach K is basically saying we're good, but not quite as good as our record would indicate. During the press conference he said "We're not that good. We're 'good', and we've accomplished 'very good.' We don't have the consistency of 'really good' with every player."

    Not trying to be pessimistic, it's just being realistic. We're need more consistency, especially from guys not named Tre Jones and Vernon Carey, but we also need those 2 guys to play better.

    Tre's shooting 43%, that's not ideal when he's the only guy who can consistently create offense. His shot selection at times has not been great. I'm really not a fan of the contested pull 3s with 25 seconds on the shot clock. He can hit those, but we can get a better shot than that. Vernon has limitations defending on the perimeter that I'm not sure can be fixed. Matthew Hurt is either great, or unplayable, nothing in between. We've looked the best when Cassius Stanley is playing at a high level on both ends, but he has not played his best the past 4 games. Wendell Moore has basically gone MIA since his big game at UNC.

    I'm hoping we can get those other guys involved more going forward, and they need to step it up. I'm looking forward to this team playing with some urgency this Saturday.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS7Kmil3pTQ

    Pretty sobering stuff. I think Coach K is basically saying we're good, but not quite as good as our record would indicate. During the press conference he said "We're not that good. We're 'good', and we've accomplished 'very good.' We don't have the consistency of 'really good' with every player."
    "We don't have the consistency of 'really good' with every player" really sums up this team better than anything I've ever heard or read.

    We've looked the best when Cassius Stanley is playing at a high level on both ends, but he has not played his best the past 4 games.
    Cassius Stanley on 3 pointers the first 16 games: 15/34 = 44%
    Cassius Stanley on 3 pointers the last 8 games: 6/31 = 19%

    Reversing this trend (assuming it's capable of being reversed and the first part of the season wasn't a fluke) would certainly make us a better offensive team, even if three point shooting isn't a big part of his game. It would diversify our offense and open things up for his teammates.

  10. #150
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    Cross posting from the other thread:


    If you look at Barttorvik, the number of "bad" (below 80) games we've had each of the past 9 seasons before March. It's unprecedented for us to have so many bad games in season before March.

    2020: 6 (59, 66, 69, 75, 73, 21)
    2019: 3 (78, 58, 44)
    2018: 5 (62, 74, 72, 74, 79)
    2017: 4 (40, 71, 62, 79)
    2016: 3 (77, 75, 37)
    2015: 4 (78, 75, 48, 68)
    2014: 4 (72, 76, 76, 70)
    2013: 5 (79, 29, 77, 74, 69)
    2012: 4 (59, 56, 74, 78, 37)

    I am not downplaying the potential of this team, but we should heed K's word that this is merely a good team that has a very good record on paper.

    The 2016 played in a very tough ACC so their records and stats were a bit skewed.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS7Kmil3pTQ

    Pretty sobering stuff. I think Coach K is basically saying we're good, but not quite as good as our record would indicate. During the press conference he said "We're not that good. We're 'good', and we've accomplished 'very good.' We don't have the consistency of 'really good' with every player."

    Not trying to be pessimistic, it's just being realistic. We're need more consistency, especially from guys not named Tre Jones and Vernon Carey, but we also need those 2 guys to play better.

    Tre's shooting 43%, that's not ideal when he's the only guy who can consistently create offense. His shot selection at times has not been great. I'm really not a fan of the contested pull 3s with 25 seconds on the shot clock. He can hit those, but we can get a better shot than that. Vernon has limitations defending on the perimeter that I'm not sure can be fixed. Matthew Hurt is either great, or unplayable, nothing in between. We've looked the best when Cassius Stanley is playing at a high level on both ends, but he has not played his best the past 4 games. Wendell Moore has basically gone MIA since his big game at UNC.

    I'm hoping we can get those other guys involved more going forward, and they need to step it up. I'm looking forward to this team playing with some urgency this Saturday.
    Good comments; checked on numbers for Cassius Stanley
    Last 4 games played (BC, UNC, FSU, not ND due to eye poke, NCSU)
    17-45 FG 37.8%
    2-10 3-pt 20%

    42 points total, of which 22 were vs UNC, not in double figures in other 3 games

    He's an important guy to get going

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    The last time was 2013, a year we made the Elite Eight. It happened twice that season - a 27-point drubbing by Miami, and a 22-point loss to Louisville in the NCAAT.



    I'm not going to re-watch the game to see exactly what happened on State's PNRs. But for the game, in addition to shooting 40.7% on layups, State shot 41.9% on two-point jumpers, which to me doesn't scream "easy looks" or "torched our bigs on jumpers." As for their threes, only three of them were assisted and one of those (by Funderburk) was not a PNR. Not sure if the other two assisted threes were on PNR or not.

    To me, our defensive problems were not turning them over and them hitting an unnatural percentage from three. We may not have done great on PNRs, but I just don't think that was the major problem.



    Kyle Singler started and played 24 minutes in a game Duke lost 74-47. Justise Winslow started and played 27 minutes in a game we lost by 16 at home. Grayson Allen started and played 38 minutes in a 14-point loss at Pitt, started and played 26 minutes in a 16-point loss at FSU, and played 17 minutes in the second half against South Carolina when we lost the half by 14. Jason Williams lost by double-digits three times to Maryland (and almost twice more). Shane Battier participated in two of those double-digit beatings (and both the "almosts"). Christian Laettner lost by 20 at home to UNC in 1989, and he and Bobby Hurley both lost by 17 at Virginia and 22 to UNC (in a year we won the national championship), not to mention losing by 30 to UNLV in 1990.

    Sometimes you just get beat.
    My main point was those guys hated losing and busted their rear ends to win. I can't remember Coach K ever saying any of those guys were not competitive. In public anyway. I'm sure there were games the team that those players were on maybe were flat a few times but not as many as this years team. Tre is the one guy that I would say shows toughness every game.
    As for the PNR, it seemed State was ready for our man2man and ran that play many times with success. It did seem to me that the State screener would move slightly when setting the pick and I don't think it was called but one time. But that didn't lose the game but coming out flat had a lot to do with the loss.

    GoDuke!

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS7Kmil3pTQ

    Pretty sobering stuff. I think Coach K is basically saying we're good, but not quite as good as our record would indicate. During the press conference he said "We're not that good. We're 'good', and we've accomplished 'very good.' We don't have the consistency of 'really good' with every player."

    Not trying to be pessimistic, it's just being realistic. We're need more consistency, especially from guys not named Tre Jones and Vernon Carey, but we also need those 2 guys to play better.

    Tre's shooting 43%, that's not ideal when he's the only guy who can consistently create offense. His shot selection at times has not been great. I'm really not a fan of the contested pull 3s with 25 seconds on the shot clock. He can hit those, but we can get a better shot than that. Vernon has limitations defending on the perimeter that I'm not sure can be fixed. Matthew Hurt is either great, or unplayable, nothing in between. We've looked the best when Cassius Stanley is playing at a high level on both ends, but he has not played his best the past 4 games. Wendell Moore has basically gone MIA since his big game at UNC.

    I'm hoping we can get those other guys involved more going forward, and they need to step it up. I'm looking forward to this team playing with some urgency this Saturday.
    I tend to agree with all of this. Coming into the season, there were real concerns about the squad talentwise. We came out like gangbusters in November and early December. But since ACC play has started, we haven't looked so good. In short, we're probably now playing more like the team we thought we would have as of September/October rather than the team that we thought we had in November/early December. Fortunately, the conference is historically weak, so some of our struggles have been masked. But there are reasons for concern.

    Unlocking Moore, Stanley, and Hurt to be more consistent would be huge. Each of them has had moments (in Stanley's case, more than just moments) where they have been studs. But they also completely disappear. We don't need them to be studs night in and night out, but it's really hard to feel good about the team's chances when there is so much volatility in their performance. Getting at least somewhat more consistency would be huge. Last night was unfortunately a clunker for all 3 at the same time, AND we had a less than stellar night from Jones, AND our defense struggled. Bad combination, and it resulted in the worst performance in over a decade.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS7Kmil3pTQ

    Pretty sobering stuff. I think Coach K is basically saying we're good, but not quite as good as our record would indicate. During the press conference he said "We're not that good. We're 'good', and we've accomplished 'very good.' We don't have the consistency of 'really good' with every player."

    Not trying to be pessimistic, it's just being realistic. We're need more consistency, especially from guys not named Tre Jones and Vernon Carey, but we also need those 2 guys to play better.

    Tre's shooting 43%, that's not ideal when he's the only guy who can consistently create offense. His shot selection at times has not been great. I'm really not a fan of the contested pull 3s with 25 seconds on the shot clock. He can hit those, but we can get a better shot than that. Vernon has limitations defending on the perimeter that I'm not sure can be fixed. Matthew Hurt is either great, or unplayable, nothing in between. We've looked the best when Cassius Stanley is playing at a high level on both ends, but he has not played his best the past 4 games. Wendell Moore has basically gone MIA since his big game at UNC.

    I'm hoping we can get those other guys involved more going forward, and they need to step it up. I'm looking forward to this team playing with some urgency this Saturday.
    Coach K's comment that we (the players) were not hungry, implying the team didn't play as hard as they needed to and perhaps didn't care enough to do so. I don't believe the kids don't care or try enough. I see it differently in that NCST played a smart game on offense and defense and they were he better team.

    Our kids have been together long enough and been coached enough that their capabilities and weaknesses are established. NCST knew that spreading our defense out and driving against it has worked in the past and they had the right type guards to make it work well. They also knew they could crash the glass and get a lot of opportunities inside. Finally, they knew we sometimes overplayed defense on the ball opening 3 point shooting opportunnites. NCST made the most of their opportunites while we didn't.

    Missed FTs was glaring (10-22) and maybe worse since some of those were on 1 and 1 fouls.

    Our offense was built around 2 players. We are lucky to have such a capable player as Vernon. Tre was primarily a defesive player last year and have improved offensively this year but is not really a guard that can get anything he wants nor is he a very high percentage shooter. He is good offensively but he needs to involve others so that they can contribute. It was either get the ball to Vernon or try to take NCST on using a one on one basis. Maybe the other alternatives are not capable and if so we are not that good. The alternative is coach K insists on spreading the ball around and trying to see if Hurt, Stanley, Moore and AOC can produce. I don't think enough was done last night to get more out of our 3rd and 4th options.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Coach K's comment that we (the players) were not hungry, implying the team didn't play as hard as they needed to and perhaps didn't care enough to do so. I don't believe the kids don't care or try enough. I see it differently in that NCST played a smart game on offense and defense and they were he better team.

    Our kids have been together long enough and been coached enough that their capabilities and weaknesses are established. NCST knew that spreading our defense out and driving against it has worked in the past and they had the right type guards to make it work well. They also knew they could crash the glass and get a lot of opportunities inside. Finally, they knew we sometimes overplayed defense on the ball opening 3 point shooting opportunnites. NCST made the most of their opportunites while we didn't.

    Missed FTs was glaring (10-22) and maybe worse since some of those were on 1 and 1 fouls.

    Our offense was built around 2 players. We are lucky to have such a capable player as Vernon. Tre was primarily a defesive player last year and have improved offensively this year but is not really a guard that can get anything he wants nor is he a very high percentage shooter. He is good offensively but he needs to involve others so that they can contribute. It was either get the ball to Vernon or try to take NCST on using a one on one basis. Maybe the other alternatives are not capable and if so we are not that good. The alternative is coach K insists on spreading the ball around and trying to see if Hurt, Stanley, Moore and AOC can produce. I don't think enough was done last night to get more out of our 3rd and 4th options.
    I agree with that, and would only add that Baker is also a potential 3rd, 4th option.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Coach K's comment that we (the players) were not hungry, implying the team didn't play as hard as they needed to and perhaps didn't care enough to do so. I don't believe the kids don't care or try enough. I see it differently in that NCST played a smart game on offense and defense and they were he better team.

    Our kids have been together long enough and been coached enough that their capabilities and weaknesses are established. NCST knew that spreading our defense out and driving against it has worked in the past and they had the right type guards to make it work well. They also knew they could crash the glass and get a lot of opportunities inside. Finally, they knew we sometimes overplayed defense on the ball opening 3 point shooting opportunnites. NCST made the most of their opportunites while we didn't.

    Missed FTs was glaring (10-22) and maybe worse since some of those were on 1 and 1 fouls.

    Our offense was built around 2 players. We are lucky to have such a capable player as Vernon. Tre was primarily a defesive player last year and have improved offensively this year but is not really a guard that can get anything he wants nor is he a very high percentage shooter. He is good offensively but he needs to involve others so that they can contribute. It was either get the ball to Vernon or try to take NCST on using a one on one basis. Maybe the other alternatives are not capable and if so we are not that good. The alternative is coach K insists on spreading the ball around and trying to see if Hurt, Stanley, Moore and AOC can produce. I don't think enough was done last night to get more out of our 3rd and 4th options.
    I think the biggest takeaways I had from last night were:
    1. How troublesome the high ball screen action was for us defensively, and how willing and able NC State was at getting it.
    2. Offensively, how little "plan B" we had. Everything seemed to be "Route 1" stuff: direct entry passes to a posting Carey; one on one drives from a guard/wing. We seemed very unable to run any semblance of coordinated offense. Considering that State ISN'T a good defensive team, that should be concerning.

    The rest I feel like was just somewhat aberrant: State's 3pt shooting, our FT shooting, our unforced turnovers. But even if we take the aberrant part away, I think we still underperformed due to points 1 and 2 above. And I'm not sure how easily it will be to address those two things.

    Offensively, we can only really rely on two things: Jones creating midrange shots for himself and sometimes getting to the rim, and Carey posting up. Everything else feels iffy at best. Hurt is skilled but slow and weak, and just disappears too much. Moore is just way too sloppy with the ball to be a trusted offensive player. Stanley doesn't dribble well enough or shoot well enough to be relied upon offensively. O'Connell has talent but makes too many mistakes. Baker is too one-dimensional. And everyone else is just really limited offensively. It feels like we've been playing a delicate balancing act, and the cracks are starting to show. Hopefully they can make adjustments, but it's still a team full of mostly one-way players that Coach K is trying to pull the right strings to make work. And that makes everything iffy. Thankfully it's a down year across college bball and especially so in the ACC. Otherwise, this team might have the potential to be one of our worst since the 2007 season. But because it's a down year overall, we've been just good enough at the right times to make it work. But games like last night show the downside this group is capable of given it's limitations.

  17. #157
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    Duke shooting in the 1st half from the boxscore
    https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/..._Box_Score.pdf

    FG % 1st Half: 13-37 35.1%
    3FG % 1st Half: 1-7 14.3%
    FT % 1st Half: 2-7 28.6%

    Stunningly bad. Yeah, NCSU was very effective offensively, but the Duke offense bears the responsibility of at least staying within striking distance.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think the biggest takeaways I had from last night were:
    1. How troublesome the high ball screen action was for us defensively, and how willing and able NC State was at getting it.
    2. Offensively, how little "plan B" we had. Everything seemed to be "Route 1" stuff: direct entry passes to a posting Carey; one on one drives from a guard/wing. We seemed very unable to run any semblance of coordinated offense. Considering that State ISN'T a good defensive team, that should be concerning.

    The rest I feel like was just somewhat aberrant: State's 3pt shooting, our FT shooting, our unforced turnovers. But even if we take the aberrant part away, I think we still underperformed due to points 1 and 2 above. And I'm not sure how easily it will be to address those two things.

    Offensively, we can only really rely on two things: Jones creating midrange shots for himself and sometimes getting to the rim, and Carey posting up. Everything else feels iffy at best. Hurt is skilled but slow and weak, and just disappears too much. Moore is just way too sloppy with the ball to be a trusted offensive player. Stanley doesn't dribble well enough or shoot well enough to be relied upon offensively. O'Connell has talent but makes too many mistakes. Baker is too one-dimensional. And everyone else is just really limited offensively. It feels like we've been playing a delicate balancing act, and the cracks are starting to show. Hopefully they can make adjustments, but it's still a team full of mostly one-way players that Coach K is trying to pull the right strings to make work. And that makes everything iffy. Thankfully it's a down year across college bball and especially so in the ACC. Otherwise, this team might have the potential to be one of our worst since the 2007 season. But because it's a down year overall, we've been just good enough at the right times to make it work. But games like last night show the downside this group is capable of given it's limitations.
    Offensively, we've had our best games when everyone on the team is involved, and I think it has be on Tre to create more for others rather than himself. At some point this season, Tre began taking way more early shot clock pull-up jumpers than he ever did before, and our offensive numbers have been in steady decline over the past 2-3 weeks. One of our biggest strengths early on in the year was our offensive rebounding, and that's completely nullified when the point guard takes a pull up jump shot before anyone is position to rebound.

    Personally, I think Cassius is extremely underutilized in this offense. He's not an elite dribbler, but I don't think it's a major weakness of his game. He's very capable of going 1 on 1 and creating a decent shot for himself in iso situations. Apart from Vernon, Cassius certainly has as much of a physical/athletic advantage over his typical matchup as anyone. Towards the beginning of the season, and during his best stretch of games, Cassius was attacking the rim, scoring, and getting to the foul line with regularity. Certainly, the lack of steals and transition opportunities hurt him more than anyone last night, but he's probably our best perimeter scorer even in the half court, and I think he should get more touches.

    Cassius himself needs to be more aggressive (stop settling for 3s when they aren't going in, you have a freaking 46 inch vertical), but that's somewhat hard to do when the point guard is taking so many possessions for himself. Sometimes, we do need Tre to take over and look to aggressively score, but overall, I think he needs to look to distribute more and shoot less, and understand situations when he needs to look to get others going, as well as knowing when he needs to take over the game himself.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Duke shooting in the 1st half from the boxscore
    https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/..._Box_Score.pdf

    FG % 1st Half: 13-37 35.1%
    3FG % 1st Half: 1-7 14.3%
    FT % 1st Half: 2-7 28.6%

    Stunningly bad. Yeah, NCSU was very effective offensively, but the Duke offense bears the responsibility of at least staying within striking distance.
    Yep. That was one of the reasons I wasn't completely despondent at halftime (obviously not pleased, but at least hopeful). We had played about the worst half of basketball we'd played all season, but were still within striking distance of a very up-and-down opponent.

    Unfortunately, the offense didn't get better quickly enough, and the defense continued to struggle. Uggh, a gross loss all around. Credit to State for maintaining a very good gameplan and executing extremely well. But we certainly helped them out too.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Offensively, we've had our best games when everyone on the team is involved, and I think it has be on Tre to create more for others rather than himself. At some point this season, Tre began taking way more early shot clock pull-up jumpers than he ever did before, and our offensive numbers have been in steady decline over the past 2-3 weeks. One of our biggest strengths early on in the year was our offensive rebounding, and that's completely nullified when the point guard takes a pull up jump shot before anyone is position to rebound.

    Personally, I think Cassius is extremely underutilized in this offense. He's not an elite dribbler, but I don't think it's a major weakness of his game. He's very capable of going 1 on 1 and creating a decent shot for himself in iso situations. Apart from Vernon, Cassius certainly has as much of a physical/athletic advantage over his typical matchup as anyone. Towards the beginning of the season, and during his best stretch of games, Cassius was attacking the rim, scoring, and getting to the foul line with regularity. Certainly, the lack of steals and transition opportunities hurt him more than anyone last night, but he's probably our best perimeter scorer even in the half court, and I think he should get more touches.

    Cassius himself needs to be more aggressive, but that's somewhat hard to do when the point guard is taking so many possessions for himself. Sometimes, we do need Tre to take over and look to aggressively score, but overall, I think he needs to look to distribute more and shoot less, and understand situations when he needs to look to get others going, as well as knowing when he needs to take over the game himself.
    I agree that Stanley is the guy that has the best chance of stepping up. I think a big part of it is that he's stopped hitting his 3s. If you have to contest his 3pt shot, he's far more dangerous off the dribble. If you can sag off of him, he's not dynamic enough a ballhandler to create his shot consistently. Or at least he hasn't shown that to this point. But, yeah, they really need to get Stanley going again. Moore and Hurt have potential, too, but there's much more going on there. Stanley it just feels like he needs to be more aggressive and less deferential.

    What definitely needs to happen less is Goldwire chucking up so many shots. One of the backbreaker moments was when we were down 12 and starting to make State sweat in the second half. We got an offensive rebound, and kicked it back out. But rather than run offense to get the ball to one of our scorers, Goldwire forced up a 3. He missed, they got the ball, and I think they went down and scored. And we never really threatened. If we get a good shot in that possession, maybe we chip it to 9 or 10 with a lot of time left, and State's nerves come into play. But that shot felt like a bad shot when he started to take it, and turned out to be a bad shot for the team.

    Jones had quite a few bad shots/possessions as well, as you alluded to. But he's actually only shooting slightly more (and probably within the margin for error) in ACC play than overall for the season. I don't know that he's necessarily taking too many shots per se, but perhaps he is taking too many ill-advised shots.

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