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  1. #201
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Morganton, NC
    Sorry if this was already noted. With maybe 8-10 (?) minutes left in game the entire Ladies squad came in and sat in lower level on the end, just past Duke's bench.

    I assume after their practice. They were really getting into it! Way cool!

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by House P View Post
    That makes sense. It is likely that I (mis)read “determine which team caused the ball to go out of bounds” as “which team touched the ball last”. But, as you point out, touching the ball while standing out of bounds may also be considered as causing “the ball to go out of bounds” even if the ball itself isn’t technically out of bounds yet. I guess I would have to look at the rule book more closely to determine if a player stepping out of bounds while in possession of the ball is considered “the ball” (and not the player) being out of bounds.

    As far as the vague wording, the phrase “caused the ball to go out of bounds” also seems odd to me. Clearly the FSU player “caused the ball to go out of bounds” by slapping it away from Carey. This would be true even if it the FSU player was tanking in bounds and the ball touched Carey last. Vern wasn’t going to “cause the ball to go out of bounds” without the FSU player intervening.

    #### Edit ####

    i think I just clarified my own question. Here is what the rule book says about a player being out of bounds who touches the ball.

    Rule 7. Section 1. Article 2.
    “The ball shall be out of bounds when it touches a player who is out of bounds, any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary, the supports or back of the backboard, or the ceiling or overhead equipment”.

    So, it appears that touching the ball while standing out of bounds causes the ball to be out of bounds
    .
    great sleuthing. that would be my interpretation as well.

    ALso "caused the ball to go X" is also used when determining backcourt violations, and if i recall, the wording is defined somewhere as "touched it last," so absent the FSU player standing out of bounds, vernon still caused it to go out of bounds.
    Dear kindly Sergeant Swofford
    You gotta understand
    It's just a class was offered
    every student in the land!
    Our students all are flunkies
    Our teachers all are chumps
    Golly Moses, a total garbage dump!

    Gee, Officer Swofford
    We're down on our knees
    'Cause we don't want to take down such a banner as these
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    What are we to do?
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    Swoff you!

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    great sleuthing. that would be my interpretation as well.

    ALso "caused the ball to go X" is also used when determining backcourt violations, and if i recall, the wording is defined somewhere as "touched it last," so absent the FSU player standing out of bounds, vernon still caused it to go out of bounds.
    but if the ball was out of bounds the moment the out of bounds player touched it he could not have then caused it to go out of bounds off of Carey. It was already out of bounds. It's not like he jumped up from in bounds and then threw it off Carey to go out. He was out of bounds when he touched the ball, causing it to be out of bounds, it doesn't matter that Carey touched it after the fact.

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    but if the ball was out of bounds the moment the out of bounds player touched it he could not have then caused it to go out of bounds off of Carey. It was already out of bounds. It's not like he jumped up from in bounds and then threw it off Carey to go out. He was out of bounds when he touched the ball, causing it to be out of bounds, it doesn't matter that Carey touched it after the fact.
    Correct. As I mentioned earlier in the thread though, the officials would have needed to be looking at where the FSU defender was, and to have found the one angle that showed him out of bounds. Clearly they were not, and instead focused on the hands and ball.

    It was a blown call, probably because they just simply didn’t consider that a player out of bounds would be making a play on the ball. I mean, that isn’t a ringing endorsement of their performance. Obviously they made a significant good there. But it is perhaps at least understandable.

    I also don’t think they handled the Hurt situation right. Forrest most certainly wasn’t in Hurt’s “cylinder.” Maybe one could say that Williams (the guy behind hurt who eventually jabbed Forrest in the face) foiled. But Hurt kind of fell into Forrest’s path, not the other way around. To be clear, I don’t think Hurt committed a foul. But if one was committed, it was by Williams, and not a “cylinder” foul.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    but if the ball was out of bounds the moment the out of bounds player touched it he could not have then caused it to go out of bounds off of Carey. It was already out of bounds. It's not like he jumped up from in bounds and then threw it off Carey to go out. He was out of bounds when he touched the ball, causing it to be out of bounds, it doesn't matter that Carey touched it after the fact.
    so absent the FSU player standing out of bounds, vernon still caused it to go out of bounds.
    I think you misread what I wrote. It was a hypothetical.
    Dear kindly Sergeant Swofford
    You gotta understand
    It's just a class was offered
    every student in the land!
    Our students all are flunkies
    Our teachers all are chumps
    Golly Moses, a total garbage dump!

    Gee, Officer Swofford
    We're down on our knees
    'Cause we don't want to take down such a banner as these
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    What are we to do?
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    Swoff you!

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Correct. As I mentioned earlier in the thread though, the officials would have needed to be looking at where the FSU defender was, and to have found the one angle that showed him out of bounds. Clearly they were not, and instead focused on the hands and ball.

    It was a blown call, probably because they just simply didn’t consider that a player out of bounds would be making a play on the ball. I mean, that isn’t a ringing endorsement of their performance. Obviously they made a significant good there. But it is perhaps at least understandable.

    I also don’t think they handled the Hurt situation right. Forrest most certainly wasn’t in Hurt’s “cylinder.” Maybe one could say that Williams (the guy behind hurt who eventually jabbed Forrest in the face) foiled. But Hurt kind of fell into Forrest’s path, not the other way around. To be clear, I don’t think Hurt committed a foul. But if one was committed, it was by Williams, and not a “cylinder” foul.

    I respectfully disagree. I am a huge Duke fan/alumnus but to me it appears that earlier in the play, prior to Matthew's corraling the ball, he uses both hands to grab Patrick Williams' left arm)at the shoulder and elbow) and direct him away from the ball. One could argue that Williams' box-out technique was a bit aggressive. I personally feel that Matthew committed a foul to allow him to get in position to rebound the ball, but I give him credit for really wanting that key rebound. Just my opinion, and not likely to be shared by others on DBR. LGD.
    "Play and practice like you are trying to make the team." --Coach K

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanarkel View Post
    I respectfully disagree. I am a huge Duke fan/alumnus but to me it appears that earlier in the play, prior to Matthew's corraling the ball, he uses both hands to grab Patrick Williams' left arm)at the shoulder and elbow) and direct him away from the ball. One could argue that Williams' box-out technique was a bit aggressive. I personally feel that Matthew committed a foul to allow him to get in position to rebound the ball, but I give him credit for really wanting that key rebound. Just my opinion, and not likely to be shared by others on DBR. LGD.
    That stuff happened all game long and was never called on either team. In context of this game, no foul.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Eh, I guess technically so, but I think that's a loose interpretation. He was the second "biggest" guy on the floor for us for the final minute of regulation and the first 2 minutes of overtime before fouling out. But, that last minute was largely scramble/foul ball, and UNC was playing 4 guards too. And in overtime, UNC lost Bacot and Black relatively quickly, so they were essentially playing 3 guards and a wing forward. Stanley had maybe 2-3 possessions of actual basketball (early in OT) where he was loosely a PF (defending Brooks). But given the extreme circumstances, I'm not sure I'd consider that meaningful time at the PF spot. More happenstance than anything else. He definitely didn't play there before the UNC game, and didn't play there against FSU. So I'd stand by the Hurt/White/Moore/DeLaurier quartet is our group of PFs. Stanley and Robinson have each played only a few possessions of PF in meaningful minutes, and Stanley's were in pretty extreme circumstances. I wouldn't really consider either of those last two as being really part of the mix. Even Baker has played more PF than Stanley. DeLaurier is pretty borderline on the PF list as well, although he does occasionally play alongside Carey (including in the UNC game). It's really been Hurt/White/Moore at PF.

    White's loss of PT has been largely correlated with the return of Moore, and especially with the shift to playing Moore at PF more often. When it was just Hurt and Baker with whom he was competing, White had the edge as the defense and rebounder of the trio. But Moore offers most of what White does but more versatility offensively. So it's harder to justify White playing as much.

    Now, maybe we'll see a shift. Well, I'd expect to see some shift just based on level of competition. But against tougher teams, it's not hard to envision Moore and Hurt being the options at PF and White getting marginalized. Especially if Goldwire continues to shoot reasonably well from 3. Because Goldwire at the 2, Stanley at the 3, and Moore at the 4 gives the team a ton of defensive versatility and ballhandling prowess. As Troublemaker essentially said, Moore is a shaky offensive player at the 3, but a terrific offensive player at the 4. So if he can defend and rebound there, it gives us a much more diversity in attack on offense.
    Agree with all of this and would add that K knows that White will not sulk on the bench, and will undoubtedly be ready when called upon if needed.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    That stuff happened all game long and was never called on either team. In context of this game, no foul.
    Rewatched the game in full, and I don't see another play approaching that uber-aggressive boxout by Williams(there are actually only a few true boxouts in the entire game)with Hurt's two-handed arm grab of Williams to reposition him. Call it what you will...
    "Play and practice like you are trying to make the team." --Coach K

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    So let’s get to the heart of the matter with Matthew’s play at the end of the game. FSU, I’ll call them the road team, gets the ball down by 3 with very little time left. Duke, I’ll call them the home team, fouls the road team sending their point guard to the line. The road teams point guard makes the first and then makes an awesome play of bouncing the ball off the front of the rim. He then collects the ball because the home team forgets to box out or perhaps their coach forgot to tell them to box out. The point guard hits a shot at the buzzer to send the game to overtime. In overtime the home team goes up by 5 with 20 seconds left and then forgets to play defense or was told by the coach to stop playing defense. The road team scores 7 points in 16 seconds to win. So did I dream up this scenario or have I seen it before. And that is why FSU I mean Duke wins on the road

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanarkel View Post
    Rewatched the game in full, and I don't see another play approaching that uber-aggressive boxout by Williams(there are actually only a few true boxouts in the entire game)with Hurt's two-handed arm grab of Williams to reposition him. Call it what you will...
    Wellhell Jay, I guess Duke gets all the calls...

    And I didn't go back and re watch the entire game, specifically looking for a similar play...I just saw it in context of the game...you know, like the REFS SAW IT.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  12. #212
    The ESPN website has changed its headline for the Duke-FSU highlight video. It now reads “Late call helps Hurt seal victory for Duke”. Originally it read “controversial call helps Duke seal victory”. I wonder why they changed it...did they get complaints, or did they actually look at the video.

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooold View Post
    The ESPN website has changed its headline for the Duke-FSU highlight video. It now reads “Late call helps Hurt seal victory for Duke”. Originally it read “controversial call helps Duke seal victory”. I wonder why they changed it...did they get complaints, or did they actually look at the video.
    It was actually a well fought rebound and making FT's that Hurt used to earn that victory.

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Tooold View Post
    The ESPN website has changed its headline for the Duke-FSU highlight video. It now reads “Late call helps Hurt seal victory for Duke”. Originally it read “controversial call helps Duke seal victory”. I wonder why they changed it...did they get complaints, or did they actually look at the video.
    i prefer "duke wins despite blown review call"
    Dear kindly Sergeant Swofford
    You gotta understand
    It's just a class was offered
    every student in the land!
    Our students all are flunkies
    Our teachers all are chumps
    Golly Moses, a total garbage dump!

    Gee, Officer Swofford
    We're down on our knees
    'Cause we don't want to take down such a banner as these
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    What are we to do?
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    Swoff you!

  15. #215

    GOAT - demonstrated yet again

    I just went back and listened to the Press Conference from this game (again). At the end, Coach K is talking about how the assistant coaches (primarily the scout coach for this game, Nate James) didn't do their usual "fill" of information to the guys. There was an acknowledgement that given where they were (less than 48 hours after a tremendous and emotionally draining win), the amount of stuff about FSU they could effectively share with the players was quite small. So instead of talking about each FSU player separately (and there are 9 good players on FSU's Team), they created 3 buckets: shooters, drivers and bigs and told the guys what to do when they happened to be guarding one of those three types of players. This is masterful teaching. You give the players what they need to know in a toned-down, consumable chunk of information and let 'um play. Coach K's leadership and teaching ability cannot be overstated. We Duke fans are truly blessed.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanarkel View Post
    Rewatched the game in full, and I don't see another play approaching that uber-aggressive boxout by Williams(there are actually only a few true boxouts in the entire game)with Hurt's two-handed arm grab of Williams to reposition him. Call it what you will...
    Yeah, I respectfully disagree with this interpretation, which seems to be the one that FSU fans are also advocating. Williams had his arms spread-eagle and was trying to push Hurt away from the baseline in a very aggressive manner. Hurt did, indeed, use both arms to try to push William's left arm away from his body. In my view, the initial foul is actually on Williams—you don't get to extend your arms to corral the opposing player away from the play... That isn't boxing out, it's pushing the player away from the play. Sure, Hurt also can't use his arms to push Williams away, but in the context of the play, it's a wash—both players are effectively fouling each other. The unfortunate thing for Williams happened to be that he pushed Matthew directly to where the ball actually went off the rim, putting Hurt in great position to grab the rebound. And because Matthew is 6'10", he simply had to jump and extend his arm to corral the ball. In retrospect, unlucky play for Williams. But the no-call on each player's contact, in my opinion, was spot on and consistent with the contact that the officials had been allowing all game long.

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