Page 697 of 712 FirstFirst ... 197597647687695696697698699707 ... LastLast
Results 13,921 to 13,940 of 14229
  1. #13921
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Weíre all gonna die eventually, so why bother living?
    Good point. Goodbye, cruel world!


    Oh, and before I go, I don't think having a goal to get rid of restrictions would help at all. The Venn diagram of people who truly detest the restrictions has a lot of overlap with the circle of people who will never get the shot no matter what. A lot of them are already ignoring the restrictions anyway, or think that there is no pandemic.

  2. #13922
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Good point. Goodbye, cruel world!


    Oh, and before I go, I don't think having a goal to get rid of restrictions would help at all. The Venn diagram of people who truly detest the restrictions has a lot of overlap with the circle of people who will never get the shot no matter what. A lot of them are already ignoring the restrictions anyway, or think that there is no pandemic.
    Which is PRECISELY why we are not attending the family reunion in Virginia in June. We may go another weekend and visit only with those who have been vaccinated. I have no problem telling the others, "We'd love to see you, but you're not vaccinated, and we're not socializing with the un-vaccinated."

  3. #13923
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    COVID USA Numbers as of Apr 21

    The seven-day average for new cases, after a surge in the past month, is now declining -- 10 percent in the past week, which reverses a month-long trend of increases. The average daily rate for new cases is 65,200 (Worldometer).

    The seven-day average for deaths is declining still, but more slowly than two weeks ago. The flatness of the numbers is due, no doubt, to the recent increase in cases. The seven-day average for deaths is 736, the lowest average since October 19 -- six months ago. The next target will be the July 2020 low of 513, which is the lowest point after the COVID pandemic began to rage at the end of March in 2020.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  4. #13924
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Good point. Goodbye, cruel world!


    Oh, and before I go, I don't think having a goal to get rid of restrictions would help at all. The Venn diagram of people who truly detest the restrictions has a lot of overlap with the circle of people who will never get the shot no matter what. A lot of them are already ignoring the restrictions anyway, or think that there is no pandemic.
    For that group, is the quickest way to herd immunity is to let them all just get it and see what happens? Rip the bandage off so to speak?

    Assuming hospital capacity of course.

  5. #13925
    I'll be pretty surprised if we get to 65% of the adult population in NC vaccinated until they take it off of EUA and expressly state that employers can mandate it (barring a legitimate health reason / sincerely held religious belief).

    I'll bee very happy, but pretty surprised.

  6. #13926
    Quote Originally Posted by mpj96 View Post
    I'll be pretty surprised if we get to 65% of the adult population in NC vaccinated until they take it off of EUA and expressly state that employers can mandate it (barring a legitimate health reason / sincerely held religious belief).

    I'll bee very happy, but pretty surprised.
    I'd be pretty surprised if many employers mandate it even after it is past EUA. I just don't think they want to fight that battle and would rather offer carrots and maybe some very light sticks in terms of inconvenience. Some states even have bills that would bar such requirements, and of course some governors have ordered no vaccine passports. I also doubt many businesses will want to jump out in front in terms of requiring vaccination from their customers. International travel should continue to be out front, but I'd still be surprised if domestic travel requires. College requirements from students should provide some boost. I could see Cameron requiring it. I just don't see many concert and sporting event venues, restaurants, etc. jumping into the fray as it has gotten too politicized. It may be a slow process to get holdouts to change.

  7. #13927
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    I think most state governments (as well as the U.S. Government) understand the hideous pushback they'll get if they try to require vaccinations.

    OTOH, I've heard a series of industry leaders (e.g. the president of Delta Airlines) talking about the need for some type of a vaccination passport (again, not government issued). They have to figure out a way to boost customer confidence while at the same time not scaring off the know nothings. A tough balance.

  8. #13928
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    I think a lot of it will come down to money. If vaccination status becomes highly correlated with SEC, you will see private entities react in some way. Things will change. Exactly how is hard to say right now, but things will change. One thing I will predict, airlines may offer two types of flights with one type being for vaccinated passengers only. Those tickets will cost more. Some people will pay the extra.

    Will employers start being sued when their employees get sick? I think they probably will. If a business does not provide paid sick leave and/or does not require that their employees get vaccinated and an outbreak occurs that can be traced to the place of employment? Yeah, there will be lawsuits.

  9. #13929
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke79UNLV77 View Post
    I'd be pretty surprised if many employers mandate it even after it is past EUA. I just don't think they want to fight that battle and would rather offer carrots and maybe some very light sticks in terms of inconvenience. Some states even have bills that would bar such requirements, and of course some governors have ordered no vaccine passports. I also doubt many businesses will want to jump out in front in terms of requiring vaccination from their customers. International travel should continue to be out front, but I'd still be surprised if domestic travel requires. College requirements from students should provide some boost. I could see Cameron requiring it. I just don't see many concert and sporting event venues, restaurants, etc. jumping into the fray as it has gotten too politicized. It may be a slow process to get holdouts to change.
    Customers? No. Not ever. Employees? Yes.

    There are a ton of hospitals and nursing homes that presently do not mandate the covid vaccine but mandate the flu vaccine. That will change when EUA goes away. Those are big employers.

    Companies are offering lots of carrots. Those who are persuaded by carrots have already gotten it. In the meantime we keep having to mask, take temperatures, contact trace, etc. to accommodate a recalcitrant group. Some folks just won't get on board until you tell them they have to get on board. The vaccine is now readily available. When it is no longer EUA you will start to see employers mandate. That will be enough to get another 10 to 15% vaccinated.

  10. #13930
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I think most state governments (as well as the U.S. Government) understand the hideous pushback they'll get if they try to require vaccinations.

    OTOH, I've heard a series of industry leaders (e.g. the president of Delta Airlines) talking about the need for some type of a vaccination passport (again, not government issued). They have to figure out a way to boost customer confidence while at the same time not scaring off the know nothings. A tough balance.
    The government does not need to mandate vaccines. They need to take it off of EUA so that employers start mandating it.

    100% in favor of a vaccine passport. Would love to be able to flash a vaccine passport to go back to pre-spring 2020 activities. Live music, sporting events, travel? Sign me up.

  11. #13931
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    For that group, is the quickest way to herd immunity is to let them all just get it and see what happens? Rip the bandage off so to speak?

    Assuming hospital capacity of course.
    Sorry, but I'll disagree with the bolded. Call me Scrooge.

  12. #13932
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Sorry, but I'll disagree with the bolded. Call me Scrooge.
    Yeah, I dig it.

    At some point, there are three groups of folks:

    1. Those who chose to get the vaccine.
    2. Those who decline and choose to take the risk.
    3. Those who, for medical conditions, have to shelter no matter what until this thing is done.

    So isnít the quickest way to the end ó herd immunity ó to simply open everything up after those that want the vaccine have it; and then build herd immunity through (1) vaccines or (2) for a mass-critical portion of the unvaccinated to get it? That gives groups 1 and 2 what they want, and gets us to the end so we can liberate group 3 more quickly.

    If we wait for some mythical percentage to get the vaccine, I just donít see that happening. Instead I see endless booster shots and mutations that may ultimately penetrate the vaccine. So shoot up those that want it; let the virus run its course on those that donít; and get to the end so group 3 can resume life.

    Is this wrong?

  13. #13933
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Yeah, I dig it.

    At some point, there are three groups of folks:

    1. Those who chose to get the vaccine.
    2. Those who decline and choose to take the risk.
    3. Those who, for medical conditions, have to shelter no matter what until this thing is done.

    So isnít the quickest way to the end ó herd immunity ó to simply open everything up after those that want the vaccine have it; and then build herd immunity through (1) vaccines or (2) for a mass-critical portion of the unvaccinated to get it? That gives groups 1 and 2 what they want, and gets us to the end so we can liberate group 3 more quickly.

    If we wait for some mythical percentage to get the vaccine, I just donít see that happening. Instead I see endless booster shots and mutations that may ultimately penetrate the vaccine. So shoot up those that want it; let the virus run its course on those that donít; and get to the end so group 3 can resume life.

    Is this wrong?
    No.

    Free Group 3! Free Group 3!

  14. #13934
    I just read an article suggesting that it's likely we will never reach herd immunity, certainly not worldwide. Is there a quantifiable definition of herd immunity? Not to be a pessimist...I see masks and social distancing continuing in some circles for perhaps decades. I guess it will become the "new normal."

    I really hope my children will be allowed to hug a classmate during their elementary school years someday without being admonished...I think we may be underestimating the social/developmental impacts for young children if it persists for several years (which I hope it doesn't), but if there continues to be even some community spread, many communities and school districts will continue to choose to have protocols in place that emphasize the dangers of being near others. My community is nowhere close to normal (despite below a 1% positivity rate) and will still be operating a remote model (at least giving it as an option) for schooling next school year.

    As an adult, I'm certainly less worried for my own social development.
    Last edited by Bluedog; 04-22-2021 at 07:10 PM.

  15. #13935
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Yeah, I dig it.

    At some point, there are three groups of folks:

    1. Those who chose to get the vaccine.
    2. Those who decline and choose to take the risk.
    3. Those who, for medical conditions, have to shelter no matter what until this thing is done.

    So isnít the quickest way to the end ó herd immunity ó to simply open everything up after those that want the vaccine have it; and then build herd immunity through (1) vaccines or (2) for a mass-critical portion of the unvaccinated to get it? That gives groups 1 and 2 what they want, and gets us to the end so we can liberate group 3 more quickly.

    If we wait for some mythical percentage to get the vaccine, I just donít see that happening. Instead I see endless booster shots and mutations that may ultimately penetrate the vaccine. So shoot up those that want it; let the virus run its course on those that donít; and get to the end so group 3 can resume life.

    Is this wrong?
    That's how you get endless mutations.

    Group 2 is holding Group 3 hostage. That has to stop. This thing will never be done, covid is endemic (my opinion, not completely proven, but I can't see us getting rid of covid, it's here to stay). Group 2 needs to feel intense societal pressure to take what medical precautions are available or stay out of public places. Vaccine refusers are the 21st century's smokers.

  16. #13936
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    That's how you get endless mutations.

    Group 2 is holding Group 3 hostage. That has to stop. This thing will never be done, covid is endemic (my opinion, not completely proven, but I can't see us getting rid of covid, it's here to stay). Group 2 needs to feel intense societal pressure to take what medical precautions are available or stay out of public places. Vaccine refusers are the 21st century's smokers.
    I agree. But if one believes (as I do) that the vast majority of these folks will never change their mind, don’t we open things up and try to run the course quickly rather than going through a prolonged loop? It seems the longer it goes, the more varieties of mutations are inevitable.

    I wish we could change their minds, but I would go into PPB territory to state why I think that will not happen or the parties at blame for that.

  17. #13937
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I agree. But if one believes (as I do) that the vast majority of these folks will never change their mind, donít we open things up and try to run the course quickly rather than going through a prolonged loop? It seems the longer it goes, the more varieties of mutations are inevitable.

    I wish we could change their minds, but I would go into PPB territory to state why I think that will not happen or the parties at blame for that.
    We aren't going to change their minds which is why we have to change the rules. No, you can't travel to Cancun. No, you can't take a cruise. No, you can't sit in a luxury box at the stadium. No, you can't move into assisted living. No, you can't coach Little League. No, you can't play high school sports. No, you can't work here. You want to opt out of rules society has deemed necessary? Ok, but that means you are also opting out of some of things society has to offer.

    Will all of these things become off limits to the unvaccinated? I sure hope so. We've been losing 30,000 - 60,000 people to the flu every year when we really didn't need to. Smoking was something you could do almost anywhere for a very long time until, kinda suddenly, it wasn't. Granted you can see someone smoking, so, enforcing vaccinations will be a bit harder but you have to fill out CORI forms to coach Little League, turning in a proof of vaccination form wouldn't be any different.

  18. #13938
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    We aren't going to change their minds which is why we have to change the rules. No, you can't travel to Cancun. No, you can't take a cruise. No, you can't sit in a luxury box at the stadium. No, you can't move into assisted living. No, you can't coach Little League. No, you can't play high school sports. No, you can't work here. You want to opt out of rules society has deemed necessary? Ok, but that means you are also opting out of some of things society has to offer.

    Will all of these things become off limits to the unvaccinated? I sure hope so. We've been losing 30,000 - 60,000 people to the flu every year when we really didn't need to. Smoking was something you could do almost anywhere for a very long time until, kinda suddenly, it wasn't. Granted you can see someone smoking, so, enforcing vaccinations will be a bit harder but you have to fill out CORI forms to coach Little League, turning in a proof of vaccination form wouldn't be any different.
    That would require some sort of COVID passport which I just don’t see happening. Putting aside the policy of whether that would be a good idea or not (PPB rules and whatnot) I think that’s already off the table.

    Now, once the FDA actually approves the vaccine on a non-emergency use basis you can certainly require it at schools and some places of employment. Does anyone know what the time frame is for that?

  19. #13939
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    That would require some sort of COVID passport which I just don’t see happening. Putting aside the policy of whether that would be a good idea or not (PPB rules and whatnot) I think that’s already off the table.

    Now, once the FDA actually approves the vaccine on a non-emergency use basis you can certainly require it at schools and some places of employment. Does anyone know what the time frame is for that?
    I am thinking post approval. I think we can agree that international travel is a given - which will include cruise ships. But c'mon, you're a lawyer. This stuff will happen for CYA reasons. Can you imagine the lawsuits if some unvaccinated Little League baseball coach infects their whole team? You have to fill out a CORI form to coach Little League baseball, it's not that much of stretch to imagine needing to turn in a form indicating proof of vaccination. Everything situation I mentioned is under the control of private entities (or in the case of international travel, foreign governments.) I don't really see any of this happening because of deep concern for public health, I see this happening because of lawsuits.

  20. #13940
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    I am thinking post approval. I think we can agree that international travel is a given - which will include cruise ships. But c'mon, you're a lawyer. This stuff will happen for CYA reasons. Can you imagine the lawsuits if some unvaccinated Little League baseball coach infects their whole team? You have to fill out a CORI form to coach Little League baseball, it's not that much of stretch to imagine needing to turn in a form indicating proof of vaccination. Everything situation I mentioned is under the control of private entities (or in the case of international travel, foreign governments.) I don't really see any of this happening because of deep concern for public health, I see this happening because of lawsuits.
    CYA is not going to drive a bunch of employers and other private entities to require vaccines. In fact, the legal pitfalls of requiring vaccines probably outweigh the risk of not requiring vaccines in a typical situation. It is complicated to put together a program that complies with applicable laws, and even harder to ensure that a well designed program is properly enforced. And even then, you are exposed to lawsuits from people who are aggrieved by a vaccine requirement.

    On the other hand, hitting an employer for liability for an outbreak would be difficult in most instances. First, you have to show causation, which is not easy given the incubation period and invisible nature of infection.

    Second, you need a theory of liability. Letís say your theory is that the employer had a duty to protect its employees from infection and that the employer breached that duty by failing to require that all employees get a vaccine (subject to the required exceptions). The employer can point to applicable guidance from authorities, none of whom require vaccines, and argue that there was no breach. If the employer followed applicable guidance, thatís as close to a safe harbor as I can think of in this context.

    If someone is thinking about this differently, Iíd like to hear it. But my guess is that employers who require vaccines will do that because they think that is the right thing to do, regardless of the legal and employee relation risks.

Similar Threads

  1. Lacrosse: The 2020 Season
    By burnspbesq in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 215
    Last Post: 04-15-2020, 12:13 AM
  2. 2020 Final Four
    By szstark in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-09-2020, 12:00 PM
  3. MLB 2020 HOF Election
    By Blue in the Face in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 01-24-2020, 12:28 PM
  4. FB: 2020 Schedule is out
    By nocilla in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-22-2020, 07:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •