PlagueWatch 2020-23 - Coronavirus

[jv001]

So you have a 36 year winning streak - no shot and no flu. Does that mean the streak will continue? Steven F Austin says hi.

Admit it, Jv, you’re not that young anymore. Do yourself a favor and put “get flu shot” on your to do list for the fall.

You're certainly correct Neals, I'm not that young anymore, even though the good Lord has blessed me with good health for the most part. Maybe I need to start a "don't jinx it" thread for my winning streak against the flu.

I would like to thank each of you that commented on this subject. I do have a question though. What causes the patient who actually got the vaccine to have a better recovery than say a person who did not get the vaccine? There has to be a scientific reason. Antibodies? Maybe I'm thinking too much.
Oh, I'm not afraid of needles. Been poked so many times, I'm used to it.

[JasonEvans]

Husband of weezie remarked that one of his Covid patients in hospital, 74 yr old F, has been in there over six weeks. Outwardly fine, no symptoms but still coming up positive. She can't leave until clear, of course. The hospital admin is freaking out over the price tag. Twice daily calls to him to check in on her possible discharge.

Why is the hospital freaking out about the price tag? Isn't her insurance company paying it? I would think an occupied bed is income. Is it that she is not requiring any other meaningful care so she is taking up a bed but not ringing up lots of other bills for tests and procedures and the such?

[OldPhiKap]

Why is the hospital freaking out about the price tag? Isn't her insurance company paying it? I would think an occupied bed is income. Is it that she is not requiring any other meaningful care so she is taking up a bed but not ringing up lots of other bills for tests and procedures and the such?

If she's Medicare or Medicaid, that may not be as profitable as a privately-insured patient.

[rsvman]

There was once a time when the flu vaccine was a live one, so you might have actually gotten the flu, but for many years now it has been "dead" and so there is zero chance...I still hear people claiming the flu shot gave them the flu (primarily because they don't like needles). But yeah, you can have a response which makes you feel unwell for a bit...

Sorry, but I have to correct this. There was never a time anyone could have gotten the flu from the flu vaccine. Full stop.

Yes, there was a live virus vaccine at one point, which, by the way, is still available (it came back). No, it was not possible to get the flu from the live virus vaccine. It was highly, and I mean highly attenuated. The attenuation was ridiculously stable. There has never, ever been a case of anybody getting the flu from the live attenuated flu vaccine. Not in the entire world. Ever.

Your post also makes it sound as if early flu vaccines were live but then were switched to killed. Truth is that the killed vaccine has been in use from the beginning, a company invented the live attenuated one and marketed it starting in the early 2000s, it was briefly "not recommended" by the ACIP (not because it caused flu but because for a year or two there were efficacy issues with regard to a single strain), and now it is back.

[rsvman]

You're certainly correct Neals, I'm not that young anymore, even though the good Lord has blessed me with good health for the most part. Maybe I need to start a "don't jinx it" thread for my winning streak against the flu.

I would like to thank each of you that commented on this subject. I do have a question though. What causes the patient who actually got the vaccine to have a better recovery than say a person who did not get the vaccine? There has to be a scientific reason. Antibodies? Maybe I'm thinking too much.
Oh, I'm not afraid of needles. Been poked so many times, I'm used to it.

The idea is that the vaccine provides a level of protection; in some people, perhaps not enough to prevent them from getting symptomatic disease, but still some level of protection. Yes, said protection is largely thought to be due to neutralizing antibodies.

[aimo]

Sorry, but I have to correct this. There was never a time anyone could have gotten the flu from the flu vaccine. Full stop.

Yes, there was a live virus vaccine at one point, which, by the way, is still available (it came back). No, it was not possible to get the flu from the live virus vaccine. It was highly, and I mean highly attenuated. The attenuation was ridiculously stable. There has never, ever been a case of anybody getting the flu from the live attenuated flu vaccine. Not in the entire world. Ever.

Your post also makes it sound as if early flu vaccines were live but then were switched to killed. Truth is that the killed vaccine has been in use from the beginning, a company invented the live attenuated one and marketed it starting in the early 2000s, it was briefly "not recommended" by the ACIP (not because it caused flu but because for a year or two there were efficacy issues with regard to a single strain), and now it is back.

A question: When they were offering (and maybe they still are) the nasal spray vaccine that had some live virus in it, why was it not recommended for people with asthma and other conditions? I assumed it was b/c of the live virus.

[sagegrouse]

Husband of weezie remarked that one of his Covid patients in hospital, 74 yr old F, has been in there over six weeks. Outwardly fine, no symptoms but still coming up positive. She can't leave until clear, of course. The hospital admin is freaking out over the price tag. Twice daily calls to him to check in on her possible discharge.

Why doesn't she just gather up her stuff and walk out the door? The food can't be that good.

[Bostondevil]

If she's Medicare or Medicaid, that may not be as profitable as a privately-insured patient.

She's 74, she's definitely on Medicare. She may also have supplemental private insurance. She's also going to be a cost outlier in any future study of the costs of treating Covid 19 patients, no matter her insurance.

[luvdahops]

She's 74, she's definitely on Medicare. She may also have supplemental private insurance. She's also going to be a cost outlier in any future study of the costs of treating Covid 19 patients, no matter her insurance.

Under Medicare, a hospital is generally reimbursed a fixed amount per episode of care, so each "extra" day beyond an average or median stay costs the hospital money. The uncertainty around treatment of COVID-19 patients is one reason why hospitals were a major focus of the CARES Act. But a stay of this duration is bound to be an outlier even with extra funding.

[cspan37421]

What causes the patient who actually got the vaccine to have a better recovery than say a person who did not get the vaccine? There has to be a scientific reason. Antibodies? Maybe I'm thinking too much.
Oh, I'm not afraid of needles. Been poked so many times, I'm used to it.

It's my understanding (very limited) that vaccines work because they prepare your immune system to recognize a threat of a certain type/structure/composition. When the real threat occurs, the immune system can respond more quickly to stamp it out than if it had not previously encountered similar-looking antigens. The vaccine thus "primes" the immune system. A basic Google search of reliable sources should provide further detail.

I'm not quite sure this is the question you asked, though. You asked about quicker recovery and may not have meant avoidance - I guess that could be a gray area. Maybe the mechanism is the same, though - your immune system springing into action to fight the invader.

One last word for all, I can't resist - items sold that promise to "boost your immune system" aren't necessarily good for you, and may cause harm (if they do what they say). A hyperactive immune system is a BAD thing, because it can result in your body attacking itself, not just harmful bacteria and viruses. There's a whole class of diseases and conditions called autoimmune disorders and trust me, you don't want them. Like many bodily functions, a healthy immune system is a balancing act - you don't want one too weak or too strong. So don't try to "boost" it without a clearly identified medical need.

[budwom]

Sorry, but I have to correct this. There was never a time anyone could have gotten the flu from the flu vaccine. Full stop.

Yes, there was a live virus vaccine at one point, which, by the way, is still available (it came back). No, it was not possible to get the flu from the live virus vaccine. It was highly, and I mean highly attenuated. The attenuation was ridiculously stable. There has never, ever been a case of anybody getting the flu from the live attenuated flu vaccine. Not in the entire world. Ever.

Your post also makes it sound as if early flu vaccines were live but then were switched to killed. Truth is that the killed vaccine has been in use from the beginning, a company invented the live attenuated one and marketed it starting in the early 2000s, it was briefly "not recommended" by the ACIP (not because it caused flu but because for a year or two there were efficacy issues with regard to a single strain), and now it is back.

I stand corrected, thanks for doing that!

[JasonEvans]

This is really concerning for those of us trying to get a sense of what is really happening in the country.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...opening-286143

Federal and state officials across the country have altered or hidden public health data crucial to tracking the coronavirus' spread, hindering the ability to detect a surge of infections as President Donald Trump pushes the nation to reopen rapidly.

In at least a dozen states, health departments have inflated testing numbers or deflated death tallies by changing criteria for who counts as a coronavirus victim and what counts as a coronavirus test, according to reporting from POLITICO, other news outlets and the states' own admissions. Some states have shifted the metrics for a “safe” reopening; Arizona sought to clamp down on bad news at one point by simply shuttering its pandemic modeling. About a third of the states aren’t even reporting hospital admission data — a big red flag for the resurgence of the virus.

I'm amazed that the politicians doing all this don't understand what needs to happen to get the economy moving. If I see folks without masks on, I won't think it is a safe. If I am not given access to the data, I won't think it is safe. And until I think it is safe, I am not going to resume my normal spending at retail stores, restaurants, entertainment venues, and the such. If even 20% of the country is worried about going out, the economy cannot function as it is supposed to... and there are a lot more than 20% of us who don't think it is safe at this point.

Sigh...

[Tripping William]

This is really concerning for those of us trying to get a sense of what is really happening in the country.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...opening-286143



I'm amazed that the politicians doing all this don't understand what needs to happen to get the economy moving. If I see folks without masks on, I won't think it is a safe. If I am not given access to the data, I won't think it is safe. And until I think it is safe, I am not going to resume my normal spending at retail stores, restaurants, entertainment venues, and the such. If even 20% of the country is worried about going out, the economy cannot function as it is supposed to... and there are a lot more than 20% of us who don't think it is safe at this point.

Sigh...

But Disney World is planning to reopen on July 11th, so there's that.

Edit to add: And masks will be required of guests ages 3 and older. Good luck!

[budwom]

Yeah, this isn't good news. We're becoming more and more adept at finding ways to buy stuff and not go in stores. Just bought a new TV via the phone...get hardware stuff set outside for us, same with the seafood store.

We can't imagine, at our ages, venturing into a restaurant, with either inside or outside seating. Not yet anyway, and quite unlikely for months to come.

[Bostondevil]

Under Medicare, a hospital is generally reimbursed a fixed amount per episode of care, so each "extra" day beyond an average or median stay costs the hospital money. The uncertainty around treatment of COVID-19 patients is one reason why hospitals were a major focus of the CARES Act. But a stay of this duration is bound to be an outlier even with extra funding.

Yep. I'm worried about hospitals - lots of them aren't able to do the stuff that keeps them in business right now. It's kinda scary. I've been worried about rural hospitals for years (with good reason).

[PackMan97]

This is really concerning for those of us trying to get a sense of what is really happening in the country.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...opening-286143



I'm amazed that the politicians doing all this don't understand what needs to happen to get the economy moving. If I see folks without masks on, I won't think it is a safe. If I am not given access to the data, I won't think it is safe. And until I think it is safe, I am not going to resume my normal spending at retail stores, restaurants, entertainment venues, and the such. If even 20% of the country is worried about going out, the economy cannot function as it is supposed to... and there are a lot more than 20% of us who don't think it is safe at this point.

Sigh...

You are so passionate about this that you forgot your customary signature tag at the end of your post!

You hit the nail on the head with your post. I frustrates me greatly that the "ReOpen" folks are perhaps the worst offenders when it comes to face masks. If you want to reopen, show that you care about the spread by giving even a minimal effort to slow the spread!

I've walked into and right out of a store because I didn't like what I saw. I didn't buy something from Home Depot because I couldn't find an employee to talk to that had a face mask on.

[rsvman]

A question: When they were offering (and maybe they still are) the nasal spray vaccine that had some live virus in it, why was it not recommended for people with asthma and other conditions? I assumed it was b/c of the live virus.

There was a mild asthma flare seen in clinical trials. This resulted not from the vaccine virus replicating unchecked but rather from the immune response.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Edit to add: And masks will be required of guests ages 3 and older. Good luck!

Every 3 - 10 year old kid laughs in Mickey's general direction.

[Bostondevil]

You are so passionate about this that you forgot your customary signature tag at the end of your post!

You hit the nail on the head with your post. I frustrates me greatly that the "ReOpen" folks are perhaps the worst offenders when it comes to face masks. If you want to reopen, show that you care about the spread by giving even a minimal effort to slow the spread!

I've walked into and right out of a store because I didn't like what I saw. I didn't buy something from Home Depot because I couldn't find an employee to talk to that had a face mask on.

I've stopped going to stores that don't have signs up on the door requiring face masks. But, flip side, I've become less worried about the spread outdoors. I wear a face mask when I'm walking anywhere near other people, but, I'm planning to start trying to meet with friends for outdoor picnic lunches (bring your own food and blanket) where we can sit at least 6 feet apart. You gotta take the mask off to eat.

[Deslok]

It's my understanding (very limited) that vaccines work because they prepare your immune system to recognize a threat of a certain type/structure/composition. When the real threat occurs, the immune system can respond more quickly to stamp it out than if it had not previously encountered similar-looking antigens. The vaccine thus "primes" the immune system. A basic Google search of reliable sources should provide further detail.

I'm not quite sure this is the question you asked, though. You asked about quicker recovery and may not have meant avoidance - I guess that could be a gray area. Maybe the mechanism is the same, though - your immune system springing into action to fight the invader.

One last word for all, I can't resist - items sold that promise to "boost your immune system" aren't necessarily good for you, and may cause harm (if they do what they say). A hyperactive immune system is a BAD thing, because it can result in your body attacking itself, not just harmful bacteria and viruses. There's a whole class of diseases and conditions called autoimmune disorders and trust me, you don't want them. Like many bodily functions, a healthy immune system is a balancing act - you don't want one too weak or too strong. So don't try to "boost" it without a clearly identified medical need.

As a type 1 diabetic in a family of autoimmune disorders(Graves’ disease, vertiligo, rheumatoid arthritis, we’ve all got different ones but all auto immune) I can attest to immune systems being overactive. Oddly, it’s something as time wears on, I’m at risk of not having an active enough immune system(so like now, I think I’ve been out shopping twice since February, and the idea of going somewhere where masks are prevalent is just a nonstarter)