PlagueWatch 2020-23 - Coronavirus

[jv001]

My wife tested positive for Covid yesterday. She began coughing and sneezing, felt tired all the time and lost her taste of some foods. She never once ran a fever and had all three vaccines. I tested negative and have had all 3 vaccines as well. Even though most articles I've read say, since I've had all 3 vaccines, I don't have to quarantine but must wear a mask for 5 days, I'm still going to quarantine for the next 5 days. I think I owe that to my friends and loved ones. Lisa(wife) thinks she contracted the virus from one of her co-workers. The lady came to work Monday coughing with a runny nose. Lisa called her and told her that she (Lisa) had tested positive. The lady went to be tested and the result was positive. Her co-worker has all 3 vaccines as well. Lisa works in a medical practice, and all employees are required to wear masks and be vaccinated (3).

[acdevil]

My wife tested positive for Covid yesterday. She began coughing and sneezing, felt tired all the time and lost her taste of some foods. She never once ran a fever and had all three vaccines. I tested negative and have had all 3 vaccines as well. Even though most articles I've read say, since I've had all 3 vaccines, I don't have to quarantine but must wear a mask for 5 days, I'm still going to quarantine for the next 5 days. I think I owe that to my friends and loved ones. Lisa(wife) thinks she contracted the virus from one of her co-workers. The lady came to work Monday coughing with a runny nose. Lisa called her and told her that she (Lisa) had tested positive. The lady went to be tested and the result was positive. Her co-worker has all 3 vaccines as well. Lisa works in a medical practice, and all employees are required to wear masks and be vaccinated (3).

Sending good vibes your way.

A little strange that your wife’s co-worker would come to work with symptoms when she works at a medical practice. At this point, I think a large percentage of transmission is happening like this - people ignoring symptoms they are showing.

[ClemmonsDevil]

Sending good vibes your way.

A little strange that your wife’s co-worker would come to work with symptoms when she works at a medical practice. At this point, I think a large percentage of transmission is happening like this - people ignoring symptoms they are showing.

It's a strange situation, but culturally it has been ingrained in me to go to work when I didn't feel well. We are going to have to put a stop to that. You aren't being brave to go to work sick. You're being dangerous.

[acdevil]

It's a strange situation, but culturally it has been ingrained in me to go to work when I didn't feel well. We are going to have to put a stop to that. You aren't being brave to go to work sick. You're being dangerous.

No doubt. Used to be like that myself, but not anymore.

I used to (half) joke that I didn’t get a flu shot when I was in my 20s and single because getting the flu was the only way I could get some time off work.

[ClemmonsDevil]

No doubt. Used to be like that myself, but not anymore.

I used to (half) joke that I didn’t get a flu shot when I was in my 20s and single because getting the flu was the only way I could get some time off work.

And I used to joke that I would never take a sick day when I was actually sick. I wanted to be off work when I felt well. That joke is not aging well

[mpj96]

I am max vaxxed, my wife, kids are also max vaxxed. And though we live in Iredell County, NC I am firmly on the side of Neil Young.

CNC, I have no problem with your recharacterization of the quoted sentence (ie. I don't want to be around unvaccinated people). Your life, your choice. I wholeheartedly agree that getting vaccinated and taking reasonable precautions fits best with the brother's keeper philosophy.

My problem was your false assertion that people who aren't vaxxed are bad people and don't care about others. That is ludicrous and beneath the level of discourse that distinguishes this board. This is kind of a res ipsa loquitor kind of thing. It speaks for itself and if you don't get it I have no illusion that I am going to persuade you to the contrary.

Clemmonsdevil you may just be blowing off steam. If so, I understand. We all get frustrated and have to do that from time to time. Social media has a divisive impact. I certainly hope you aren't actually thinking of your own family and friends as bad people or telling them that you think they are. If you are then I am sorry for your loss and I hope your position there does not accurately reflect the "center" of the spectrum of possible responses.

My side of the spectrum was once known for being empathetic, rejecting dogmatism and perhaps being a little naive about the goodness of our fellow man. I wish that hadn't changed for so many, but so it goes. rust never sleeps.

[JStuart]

Thank you. You were more measured than I initially was planning to be.

As far as I am concerned, and it seems like many here agree with me, those who are too self-interested and stubborn to make minor sacrifices for the well-being of others should be shunned. There is a lot of very reasonable debate about what the appropriate level of sacrifice is and what the best policies are and how they should be adapted as the situation changes. But as far as I am concerned, those who are anti-vaccine and universally anti-mask (with some exceptions on anti-mask - I do not think we should be walking around 24/7 with masks for the rest of our lives) should be shunned and I don't want them in my life. They refuse to adapt and compromise and there should be consequences for their action. For most of them, not being friends with me is not a consequence, and at this point might be considered a benefit.

So I stand by my statement about not wanting to be around these people and I appreciate that other people here agree. As much as individualism was part of what this country was founded on, it was also founded on a concern for the greater good of society. Sometimes that involves some minor sacrifices. If someone doesn't care about me, then I don't particularly care about them, and I don't want to be around them. I am fortunate to live in a place where most people share this view. I send my children to public schools where concern for others is a core value that is taught every day. Being kind unto others is the core belief of every major religion I am aware of - this week's Bible portion for my religion (Judaism) is about kindness to strangers and the people around you.

If this offends you, then best of luck to you. Thanks for the flame. Keeps me warm on a cold winter's day...

Sporks -which I can't give out to you fine folks anyway- aren't good enough to express my complete agreement with the thoughts you all have made over the last page.
I'm hopeful that more folks will recognize this public health emergency, eventually, but I recognize it may be a futile hope..
Thanks to all of you for being this eloquent.
JStuart

[camion]

It's a strange situation, but culturally it has been ingrained in me to go to work when I didn't feel well. We are going to have to put a stop to that. You aren't being brave to go to work sick. You're being dangerous.

I used to soldier on and go to work when under the weather, but as I grew older (maybe wiser) I learned to ask myself question number 2 when the answer to question number 1 was, "Yes."

Question number 1: Can I do this?

Question number 2: Should I do this?


Note: Heeding question number 2 has allowed me to avoid much pain/conflict/misery when applied to situations besides illness.

[ClemmonsDevil]

I am max vaxxed, my wife, kids are also max vaxxed. And though we live in Iredell County, NC I am firmly on the side of Neil Young.

CNC, I have no problem with your recharacterization of the quoted sentence (ie. I don't want to be around unvaccinated people). Your life, your choice. I wholeheartedly agree that getting vaccinated and taking reasonable precautions fits best with the brother's keeper philosophy.

My problem was your false assertion that people who aren't vaxxed are bad people and don't care about others. That is ludicrous and beneath the level of discourse that distinguishes this board. This is kind of a res ipsa loquitor kind of thing. It speaks for itself and if you don't get it I have no illusion that I am going to persuade you to the contrary.

Clemmonsdevil you may just be blowing off steam. If so, I understand. We all get frustrated and have to do that from time to time. Social media has a divisive impact. I certainly hope you aren't actually thinking of your own family and friends as bad people or telling them that you think they are. If you are then I am sorry for your loss and I hope your position there does not accurately reflect the "center" of the spectrum of possible responses.

My side of the spectrum was once known for being empathetic, rejecting dogmatism and perhaps being a little naive about the goodness of our fellow man. I wish that hadn't changed for so many, but so it goes. rust never sleeps.

This is a very calm and measured response. I do think they are bad people but I appreciate your perspective and the way in which it was delivered. Sporks. Also if you grew up in Iredell County, my high school owned yours in basketball. And it doesn't matter which one you attended. It's true regardless.

[acdevil]

CNC, I have no problem with your recharacterization of the quoted sentence (ie. I don't want to be around unvaccinated people). Your life, your choice. I wholeheartedly agree that getting vaccinated and taking reasonable precautions fits best with the brother's keeper philosophy.

My problem was your false assertion that people who aren't vaxxed are bad people and don't care about others. That is ludicrous and beneath the level of discourse that distinguishes this board. This is kind of a res ipsa loquitor kind of thing. It speaks for itself and if you don't get it I have no illusion that I am going to persuade you to the contrary.

Clemmonsdevil you may just be blowing off steam. If so, I understand. We all get frustrated and have to do that from time to time. Social media has a divisive impact. I certainly hope you aren't actually thinking of your own family and friends as bad people or telling them that you think they are. If you are then I am sorry for your loss and I hope your position there does not accurately reflect the "center" of the spectrum of possible responses.

My side of the spectrum was once known for being empathetic, rejecting dogmatism and perhaps being a little naive about the goodness of our fellow man. I wish that hadn't changed for so many, but so it goes. rust never sleeps.

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I’m at the point where I firmly believe that those that are unvaxed are bad people and don’t care about others (and I mean all vaccines). Even pre-Covid, we’ve had measles outbreaks not too far from us caused by large pockets of anti-vaxxers.

We had to hunker down in my household because our youngest was particularly at risk u til she could finally get vaxxed. And after having done that praying that we’d get to the day where she could, there are still way too many people who refuse to get vaxxed. Now, this doesn’t apply to those with medical conditions which legitimately make it so they can’t get vaxxed (and the existence of those people are all the more reasons others should get vaxxed).

Just think - if people had always been as anti-science as they’ve gotten now, we’d still be fighting smallpox, polio, etc.

I understand how and why we’ve gotten to this point which we can’t discuss here. It’s just sad to see personally (my father in law falls into this bucket, but he begrudgingly got vaxxed since he wouldn’t have been able to see any of his grandchildren otherwise).

[jv001]

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I’m at the point where I firmly believe that those that are unvaxed are bad people and don’t care about others (and I mean all vaccines). Even pre-Covid, we’ve had measles outbreaks not too far from us caused by large pockets of anti-vaxxers.

We had to hunker down in my household because our youngest was particularly at risk u til she could finally get vaxxed. And after having done that praying that we’d get to the day where she could, there are still way too many people who refuse to get vaxxed. Now, this doesn’t apply to those with medical conditions which legitimately make it so they can’t get vaxxed (and the existence of those people are all the more reasons others should get vaxxed).

Just think - if people had always been as anti-science as they’ve gotten now, we’d still be fighting smallpox, polio, etc.

I understand how and why we’ve gotten to this point which we can’t discuss here. It’s just sad to see personally (my father in law falls into this bucket, but he begrudgingly got vaxxed since he wouldn’t have been able to see any of his grandchildren otherwise).

Sporkzz, very well put. Our preacher told us that he had church member leave the church because he mandated wearing masks at the Christian School. I can't be sure about this, but I would bet that those former members were not vaccinated, and their children weren't either. Now those are very bad people. I do have a question though, are people that drink and drive bad people as well? I'd say, yes.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I’m at the point where I firmly believe that those that are unvaxed are bad people and don’t care about others (and I mean all vaccines). Even pre-Covid, we’ve had measles outbreaks not too far from us caused by large pockets of anti-vaxxers.

We had to hunker down in my household because our youngest was particularly at risk u til she could finally get vaxxed. And after having done that praying that we’d get to the day where she could, there are still way too many people who refuse to get vaxxed. Now, this doesn’t apply to those with medical conditions which legitimately make it so they can’t get vaxxed (and the existence of those people are all the more reasons others should get vaxxed).

Just think - if people had always been as anti-science as they’ve gotten now, we’d still be fighting smallpox, polio, etc.

I understand how and why we’ve gotten to this point which we can’t discuss here. It’s just sad to see personally (my father in law falls into this bucket, but he begrudgingly got vaxxed since he wouldn’t have been able to see any of his grandchildren otherwise).

Thank you. I totally agree. I think one of the many challenges that we face in society today is that people immediately see things as black and white, good and evil, etc. So no, every single non-vaxxed person is not a bad person. But the vast majority of them are. It is a simple thing to do (for most people). And it has been made increasingly easier since the vaccine first rolled out.

Most people who choose not to do so are looking for excuses. They claim to be "curious" or "making sure they understand." Next thing you know they will be "curious" about gravity. Or they have fallen under the guidance of bad influences. So perhaps those who have been poorly influenced are not necessarily bad at heart, but just misled. Though at the same time, there is a huge intersection between these people and those who are constantly preaching that people should take responsibility for their own behavior. So maybe they should practice what they preach.

I think this is an increasingly widely held belief. In my book, if you cannot make small sacrifices for other people (and this is a small sacrifice for almost everyone), then you are not a very good person. This should be one of the most core values anyone holds. Ridiculous efforts have been made to make it easier for people to comply. We are now beyond the point of hand-holding.

[Bostondevil]

I've said in this thread before that unless you have a medical contraindication, you do not have a good reason for remaining unvaccinated. I don't think everyone who remains unvaccinated is bad, but they don't have a good reason.

I do think some of the people who remain unvaccinated are bad. The people with public forums who advocate for refusing vaccination - they are bad. Not all of them are unvaccinated either, which makes them even worse. If you get vaccinated but want other people not to, it means you think their lives are worth less than yours and I can't reconcile that with being a good person. The people who assault or verbally abuse healthcare workers, they're bad. The people who won't take other, non-vaccine precautions and try to prevent anyone else from taking precautions, they're bad. Those who are scared because they have been told that thousands of people have died from the vaccine or the vaccine will make them infertile or that the vaccine was developed too quickly - they aren't bad, but I will not credit them with having critical thinking skills. Note, that is not calling them stupid, critical thinking is difficult, one must learn it and use it. Many are taught to think critically but unless one makes a lifelong practice of doing it, one loses the skill. (I practice by mentally arguing for positions that I do not support - a mini debate team in my head - and by always, always, always checking my sources.)

I suspect we are coming to a reckoning soon. I do believe that we will be past the omicron surge in a few weeks. I hope another variant doesn't take it's place. But I don't think our healthcare system will recover fully anytime soon. Our lack of resources to provide all of the care people might want and/or feel entitled to probably won't be there for the foreseeable future. Who gets the limited resources? We've long made the distinction between insured and uninsured, but we won't have enough for the insured, at least not for awhile. We are already seeing the early signs of what I think is coming - people suing for treatment. To put in simple terms of what I see coming - there is one ICU bed left and 5 people need it. All 5 of them (or their families) file lawsuits demanding that they get the bed. What happens when they all win their cases before a judge? What then? That said - I hope I'm wrong about such scenarios being our future.

[SouthernDukie]

I've said in this thread before that unless you have a medical contraindication, you do not have a good reason for remaining unvaccinated. I don't think everyone who remains unvaccinated is bad, but they don't have a good reason.

I do think some of the people who remain unvaccinated are bad. The people with public forums who advocate for refusing vaccination - they are bad. Not all of them are unvaccinated either, which makes them even worse. If you get vaccinated but want other people not to, it means you think their lives are worth less than yours and I can't reconcile that with being a good person. The people who assault or verbally abuse healthcare workers, they're bad. The people who won't take other, non-vaccine precautions and try to prevent anyone else from taking precautions, they're bad. Those who are scared because they have been told that thousands of people have died from the vaccine or the vaccine will make them infertile or that the vaccine was developed too quickly - they aren't bad, but I will not credit them with having critical thinking skills. Note, that is not calling them stupid, critical thinking is difficult, one must learn it and use it. Many are taught to think critically but unless one makes a lifelong practice of doing it, one loses the skill. (I practice by mentally arguing for positions that I do not support - a mini debate team in my head - and by always, always, always checking my sources.)

I suspect we are coming to a reckoning soon. I do believe that we will be past the omicron surge in a few weeks. I hope another variant doesn't take it's place. But I don't think our healthcare system will recover fully anytime soon. Our lack of resources to provide all of the care people might want and/or feel entitled to probably won't be there for the foreseeable future. Who gets the limited resources? We've long made the distinction between insured and uninsured, but we won't have enough for the insured, at least not for awhile. We are already seeing the early signs of what I think is coming - people suing for treatment. To put in simple terms of what I see coming - there is one ICU bed left and 5 people need it. All 5 of them (or their families) file lawsuits demanding that they get the bed. What happens when they all win their cases before a judge? What then? That said - I hope I'm wrong about such scenarios being our future.

I'm with you on all of that. I now know at least 6 people who refused the vaccine, then later got sick enough to warrant going to the hospital with serious/life-threatening COVID symptoms. Yet not a one of them, after recovering, have changed their thinking one iota. No thought about using up medical resources when a simple shot might very well have prevented it. No mea culpa from any of them. What do you call that? I have a word or two, but I'll hold off using them lest I get hit with a warning.

Bottom line for me: the one inescapable fact for those that could get vaxed but choose not to is that they are failing to "love their neighbor". I know many who go to church and think of themselves and fine human-beings. But they are walking in complete disobedience to a fundamental tenet of their faith. And no amount of mental or verbal gymnastics will change that.

[YmoBeThere]

@SouthernDukie

I saw that. And yes, it was.

[SouthernDukie]

@SouthernDukie

I saw that. And yes, it was.

Ha-ha. I tried to delete that before it was too late.

[mph]

I've said in this thread before that unless you have a medical contraindication, you do not have a good reason for remaining unvaccinated. I don't think everyone who remains unvaccinated is bad, but they don't have a good reason.

I do think some of the people who remain unvaccinated are bad. The people with public forums who advocate for refusing vaccination - they are bad. Not all of them are unvaccinated either, which makes them even worse. If you get vaccinated but want other people not to, it means you think their lives are worth less than yours and I can't reconcile that with being a good person. The people who assault or verbally abuse healthcare workers, they're bad. The people who won't take other, non-vaccine precautions and try to prevent anyone else from taking precautions, they're bad. Those who are scared because they have been told that thousands of people have died from the vaccine or the vaccine will make them infertile or that the vaccine was developed too quickly - they aren't bad, but I will not credit them with having critical thinking skills. Note, that is not calling them stupid, critical thinking is difficult, one must learn it and use it. Many are taught to think critically but unless one makes a lifelong practice of doing it, one loses the skill. (I practice by mentally arguing for positions that I do not support - a mini debate team in my head - and by always, always, always checking my sources.)

Very well said and consistent with my personal experience. I live in an area with below average vaccination rates compared to the national and state average. Most of my close friends and family members are vaccinated but a few aren’t. They aren’t belligerent about it and a couple have even processed with me as they struggled with their decision. I did my best to encourage them to become vaccinated but neither did. I know them both to be deeply caring people and I’m not about to cut off these relationships because they are unvaccinated.

The bottom part of your post speaks my language. I’ve been involved in teaching debate for more than 25 years. Living in the tension between belief and remaining open to correction is difficult. It takes a lot of self-reflection and, in my experience, continuous exposure to people who challenge you. Most DBR members are to my political left but the quality of the posts challenge me to think more deeply and consider new arguments. It feels like an oasis of reasonableness in a culture with a waning commitment to classical liberalism. There are times I’m close to despair wondering how this all ends without widespread violence. And, ultimately, I guess I’m convinced that the collapsing ability of our country to talk to each other is a bigger threat than any specific disagreement.

[Bostondevil]

Very well said and consistent with my personal experience. I live in an area with below average vaccination rates compared to the national and state average. Most of my close friends and family members are vaccinated but a few aren’t. They aren’t belligerent about it and a couple have even processed with me as they struggled with their decision. I did my best to encourage them to become vaccinated but neither did. I know them both to be deeply caring people and I’m not about to cut off these relationships because they are unvaccinated.

The bottom part of your post speaks my language. I’ve been involved in teaching debate for more than 25 years. Living in the tension between belief and remaining open to correction is difficult. It takes a lot of self-reflection and, in my experience, continuous exposure to people who challenge you. Most DBR members are to my political left but the quality of the posts challenge me to think more deeply and consider new arguments. It feels like an oasis of reasonableness in a culture with a waning commitment to classical liberalism. There are times I’m close to despair wondering how this all ends without widespread violence. And, ultimately, I guess I’m convinced that the collapsing ability of our country to talk to each other is a bigger threat than any specific disagreement.

The only thing about this post that I disagree with is the notion that widespread violence is not already here. I watched Bill Maher last night and the guest, Fiona Hill, pointed out a rather sobering fact, the violent wing of the IRA that held Northern Ireland and even Britain in such fear for so long, setting off IEDs all over the place, was only about 400 members strong. They had lots of silent (and some not so silent) supporters that approved, but the number of people willing to commit the violence was very small. That level of violence is already here. Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in 1995. There have been hundreds of smaller incidents in the intervening 26+ years. Very few of us would be willing to blow up a building, but Timothy McVeigh continues to have supporters. It only takes one guy willing to do it for a Federal building to get blown up and for 168 people to die.

I'll stop there as I imagine we'll get PPB too fast if I go any further.

[mpj96]

Also if you grew up in Iredell County, my high school owned yours in basketball. And it doesn't matter which one you attended. It's true regardless.

Ha! Sounds right. My Iredell County high school was then and still remains the most rural in the county. We played Wilkes Central, North Surry out of county. I don't remember playing any Forsyth County teams, but if we did I am sure we weren't too much of a challenge.

That said, when I think Clemmons I don't think basketball. I think pizza & wings at Ronnie's. Good enough that if I lived any closer I'd have to make lifestyle adjustments.

[mph]

The only thing about this post that I disagree with is the notion that widespread violence is not already here. I watched Bill Maher last night and the guest, Fiona Hill, pointed out a rather sobering fact, the violent wing of the IRA that held Northern Ireland and even Britain in such fear for so long, setting off IEDs all over the place, was only about 400 members strong. They had lots of silent (and some not so silent) supporters that approved, but the number of people willing to commit the violence was very small. That level of violence is already here. Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in 1995. There have been hundreds of smaller incidents in the intervening 26+ years. Very few of us would be willing to blow up a building, but Timothy McVeigh continues to have supporters. It only takes one guy willing to do it for a Federal building to get blown up and for 168 people to die.

I'll stop there as I imagine we'll get PPB too fast if I go any further.

I take your point. A more accurate phrase for what I was trying to communicate would be, “significantly higher levels of violence than the status quo.”