PlagueWatch 2020-23 - Coronavirus

[wavedukefan70s]

Yup. Georgia is, by and large, wide open and has been for most of the pandemic. At least my part of the state is.

At some point, COVID must move from a pandemic crisis issue to an endemic management issue. Denmark has determined that cases are high, but hospitalizations are low. Of course, they have a much higher vaccination rate than the US so it is not overwhelming their healthcare system like it is here. And from my local med folks, the issue with high hospital capacity now has less to do with the number of patients and more to do with the lack of healthcare workers cleared to work.

Not trying to get on the political side .but what percentage of healthcare workers were lost to the vaccine requirements of various institutions?
Just curious as to what impact it had.id think less than 10% .

[MChambers]

Yup. Georgia is, by and large, wide open and has been for most of the pandemic. At least my part of the state is.

At some point, COVID must move from a pandemic crisis issue to an endemic management issue. Denmark has determined that cases are high, but hospitalizations are low. Of course, they have a much higher vaccination rate than the US so it is not overwhelming their healthcare system like it is here. And from my local med folks, the issue with high hospital capacity now has less to do with the number of patients and more to do with the lack of healthcare workers cleared to work.

I don't think the US is still treating this as a pandemic crisis, at least from the point of view of governments, federal, state, and local.

Everything is allowed to be open. Here in DC, you do need a mask indoors and a vax card for restaurants, gyms, and the like. Those protections don't seem to me to be particularly limiting. But my wife and I aren't eating out, or going to live music, or even having friends over for dinner (with one or two exceptions) as a matter of choice.

If that's not endemic management, I don't know what is. (BYW, "endemic" turns out to be defined by science in a way that is very different from the way many people use it. Good explanation here: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x):

"a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria killed more than 600,000 people in 2020. Ten million fell ill with tuberculosis that same year and 1.5 million died. Endemic certainly does not mean that evolution has somehow tamed a pathogen so that life simply returns to ‘normal’."

[OldPhiKap]

Not trying to get on the political side .but what percentage of healthcare workers were lost to the vaccine requirements of various institutions?
Just curious as to what impact it had.id think less than 10% .

Not many here as I understand it. But burnout has taken its toll on the profession.

[aimo]

Not trying to get on the political side .but what percentage of healthcare workers were lost to the vaccine requirements of various institutions?
Just curious as to what impact it had.id think less than 10% .

I believe Duke dismissed less than a handful for refusing the vaccine.

[Bostondevil]

Not many here as I understand it. But burnout has taken its toll on the profession.

And in the early days, healthcare workers did a lot of the dying.

[rsvman]

Not trying to get on the political side .but what percentage of healthcare workers were lost to the vaccine requirements of various institutions?
Just curious as to what impact it had.id think less than 10% .

The problem isn't that we lost health care workers because they didn't get vaccinated, the problem is that they are isolated because they have Omicron. In the middle of last week we had 360 health care workers on isolation and therefore not allowed to work. As of this morning we are down to 240 out, but that still puts a real strain on our system.

[Bluedog]

I feel like we're out of the pandemic when we move from "I've been exposed and need to quarantine for 10 days."/"I tested positive and need to isolate for 10 days" (Yes, I recognize it's 5 in many places now) to "I am sick and thus staying home now until I get better. Then, I will go back to work/school/whatever." Will we EVER get to that point? Maybe we've permanently changed the mindset or a different standard is needed for COVID for eternity...I hope not, but we'll see. Chronic absenteeism by its traditional measures for school-aged children will skyrocket.

It does seem like close contact rules for vaccinated persons has evolved at least in many institutions. And the number of days has decreased. But I can't name another disease where if somebody has ZERO symptoms needs to stay home for 5 days (I'm not saying that's the "wrong" thing -- particularly at this point -- just noting the observation). I guess we don't test people for other things if they have zero symptoms. (And we don't typically test for COVID either unless there's been a close contact/exposure although many schools & workplaces have daily/weekly testing.)

[OldPhiKap]

The problem isn't that we lost health care workers because they didn't get vaccinated, the problem is that they are isolated because they have Omicron. In the middle of last week we had 360 health care workers on isolation and therefore not allowed to work. As of this morning we are down to 240 out, but that still puts a real strain on our system.

Exactly, that appears to be the biggest factors here in hospitals being close to capacity despite lower numbers of COVID patients. Everyone is in quarantine or recovering.

[sagegrouse]

Not trying to get on the political side .but what percentage of healthcare workers were lost to the vaccine requirements of various institutions?
Just curious as to what impact it had.id think less than 10% .

The U.S. military has some tens of thousands refusing vaccination out of a total active and reserve force of two million. Marines appear to be most recalcitrant with 95 percent with at least one shot; its sister service, the Navy, the most compliant with 98.4 fully vaccinated. (I mean, shipboard sailors have GOTTA take covid seriously.) Moreover, many (not so much in the Army) are seeking religious exemption, still being evaluated.

Discharges announced last month were 103 Marines and 27 Airmen.

[aimo]

The U.S. military has some tens of thousands refusing vaccination out of a total active and reserve force of two million. Marines appear to be most recalcitrant with 95 percent with at least one shot; its sister service, the Navy, the most compliant with 98.4 fully vaccinated. (I mean, shipboard sailors have GOTTA take covid seriously.) Moreover, many (not so much in the Army) are seeking religious exemption, still being evaluated.

Discharges announced last month were 103 Marines and 27 Airmen.

Navy update. 23 discharged.

https://abc11.com/covid-19-vaccine-u...tary/11513942/

[wavedukefan70s]

The problem isn't that we lost health care workers because they didn't get vaccinated, the problem is that they are isolated because they have Omicron. In the middle of last week we had 360 health care workers on isolation and therefore not allowed to work. As of this morning we are down to 240 out, but that still puts a real strain on our system.

Havent kept up with that aspect.the 1st round of covid took a heavy toll on philipino nurses percentage wise. One daughter left healthcare period over it.
Between that and the stress she had to make a choice.

[Phredd3]

The U.S. military has some tens of thousands refusing vaccination out of a total active and reserve force of two million. Marines appear to be most recalcitrant with 95 percent with at least one shot; its sister service, the Navy, the most compliant with 98.4 fully vaccinated. (I mean, shipboard sailors have GOTTA take covid seriously.) Moreover, many (not so much in the Army) are seeking religious exemption, still being evaluated.

Discharges announced last month were 103 Marines and 27 Airmen.

No sympathy from me. Boot 'em. The religious exemption shouldn't even exist, IMO (I realize it's codified into law), so I hope they read those applications very carefully.

[DukieInKansas]

Unfortunately, I did not get a negative on my Covid test yesterday morning. Fortunately, just feels like a mild cold. Fingers crossed it stays that way. My nephew and niece tested positive the day before me. Very grateful that my hospitalized Brother-in-law and sister were negative.

[OldPhiKap]

Unfortunately, I did not get a negative on my Covid test yesterday morning. Fortunately, just feels like a mild cold. Fingers crossed it stays that way. My nephew and niece tested positive the day before me. Very grateful that my hospitalized Brother-in-law and sister were negative.

Best thoughts to all of you!

[bundabergdevil]

Unfortunately, I did not get a negative on my Covid test yesterday morning. Fortunately, just feels like a mild cold. Fingers crossed it stays that way. My nephew and niece tested positive the day before me. Very grateful that my hospitalized Brother-in-law and sister were negative.

Be well --- and, yes, stay away from BiL!

[Channing]

I feel like we're out of the pandemic when we move from "I've been exposed and need to quarantine for 10 days."/"I tested positive and need to isolate for 10 days" (Yes, I recognize it's 5 in many places now) to "I am sick and thus staying home now until I get better. Then, I will go back to work/school/whatever." Will we EVER get to that point? Maybe we've permanently changed the mindset or a different standard is needed for COVID for eternity...I hope not, but we'll see. Chronic absenteeism by its traditional measures for school-aged children will skyrocket.

It does seem like close contact rules for vaccinated persons has evolved at least in many institutions. And the number of days has decreased. But I can't name another disease where if somebody has ZERO symptoms needs to stay home for 5 days (I'm not saying that's the "wrong" thing -- particularly at this point -- just noting the observation). I guess we don't test people for other things if they have zero symptoms. (And we don't typically test for COVID either unless there's been a close contact/exposure although many schools & workplaces have daily/weekly testing.)

I want my kids to be able to go to school without a mask. Our daughter is in a specialty school for children with dyslexia and our son is in Pre-K - the data in both cases is clear that learning with masks really damages the ability to maximize potential (as an aside, it is shocking to me that schools / someone hasn't figured out a see-through mask yet). I want to be able to travel oversees without being terrified - not terrified of catching Covid but terrified that I test positive and then get stuck wherever I am for an additional 2 weeks.

I understand that we don't know the long-term impacts of Covid, etc. etc., but nobody outside of PRC And AUS think we have any chance of getting to Covid zero. It is undeniable that catching the Omicron is far less taxing to the body in the very vast majority of cases than was catching the Alpha or the Delta.

Bari Wise made a strong point on Bill Maher the other night - the vaccine has been available to anyone that wants it for a year. Children 6 and over have unfettered access to the vaccine. We know, per the CDC, that the cloth masks don't work. When will we reach the point in time where people who have concerns for themselves and their families are responsible for protecting them (be it limiting large gatherings, wearing N-95s in public, etc.) as opposed to those who want to get on with their lives being required to continue to limit their day-to-day for those people?

All that said, I have a feeling this post ends up getting deleted for being too political - apologies in advance.

[Bostondevil]

I want my kids to be able to go to school without a mask. Our daughter is in a specialty school for children with dyslexia and our son is in Pre-K - the data in both cases is clear that learning with masks really damages the ability to maximize potential (as an aside, it is shocking to me that schools / someone hasn't figured out a see-through mask yet). I want to be able to travel oversees without being terrified - not terrified of catching Covid but terrified that I test positive and then get stuck wherever I am for an additional 2 weeks.

I understand that we don't know the long-term impacts of Covid, etc. etc., but nobody outside of PRC And AUS think we have any chance of getting to Covid zero. It is undeniable that catching the Omicron is far less taxing to the body in the very vast majority of cases than was catching the Alpha or the Delta.

Bari Wise made a strong point on Bill Maher the other night - the vaccine has been available to anyone that wants it for a year. Children 6 and over have unfettered access to the vaccine. We know, per the CDC, that the cloth masks don't work. When will we reach the point in time where people who have concerns for themselves and their families are responsible for protecting them (be it limiting large gatherings, wearing N-95s in public, etc.) as opposed to those who want to get on with their lives being required to continue to limit their day-to-day for those people?

All that said, I have a feeling this post ends up getting deleted for being too political - apologies in advance.

I wouldn't call Bari Weiss's point strong. What does she mean by getting on with one's life? How, exactly, do the parents of the children who have died from covid get on with their lives? How exactly do the children whose parents have died from covid get on with their lives? If I had been a guest sitting next to Bari Weiss, I would have asked her those questions. Children under 5 cannot get vaccinated yet and even though the deaths are "rare", children under 5 have died from covid. Covid is one of the top 10 leading causes of death in people under 18 for the last two years running. Yes, we should be doing a much better job of figuring out ways for kids to be able to be in school without masks, but until we do, the schools need to do something to at least try to protect the vulnerable children. I mean, who among us is OK with our child being one of the rare deaths? Anybody who isn't OK with their kid being one of the dead ones needs to realize that we will be sacrificing children so that adults can get on with their lives. Right now a deadly virus is still raging and our hospitals are still stretched too thin. We can start talking about removing the restrictions when we can be reasonably sure there will be a hospital bed available for every sick child who needs one. That said, I agree that adults who remain unvaccinated are on their own.

Bari Weiss completely lost me when she said, "Only 803 children have died from covid." Only. That's 803 families that will never be the same. Those families aren't getting on with their lives. Ever. If we as a society showed any inclination to protect our children so that we would keep the number of families who will never truly recover from the pandemic to an absolute minimum, then you could get me on board with some of the suggestions, but when you start talking about how rare the deaths are among children, you show yourself to be too callous to be given the power to make policy decisions. Bari Weiss didn't make a strong point, she made a callous, entitled, clueless point.

[Channing]

I wouldn't call Bari Weiss's point strong. What does she mean by getting on with one's life? How, exactly, do the parents of the children who have died from covid get on with their lives? How exactly do the children whose parents have died from covid get on with their lives? If I had been a guest sitting next to Bari Weiss, I would have asked her those questions. Children under 5 cannot get vaccinated yet and even though the deaths are "rare", children under 5 have died from covid. Covid is one of the top 10 leading causes of death in people under 18 for the last two years running. Yes, we should be doing a much better job of figuring out ways for kids to be able to be in school without masks, but until we do, the schools need to do something to at least try to protect the vulnerable children. I mean, who among us is OK with our child being one of the rare deaths? Anybody who isn't OK with their kid being one of the dead ones needs to realize that we will be sacrificing children so that adults can get on with their lives. Right now a deadly virus is still raging and our hospitals are still stretched too thin. We can start talking about removing the restrictions when we can be reasonably sure there will be a hospital bed available for every sick child who needs one. That said, I agree that adults who remain unvaccinated are on their own.

I don’t want to down play death in any respect. Death of anyone is tragic and death of a child is even more so. But what are we going to do about it? Are we going to stick with the current paralysis? To be clear, I am suggesting that we let those who want back to normal go there and those who wish to remain cautious to stay there. I don’t have the list - what we’re the other 9 of the top ten causes of death in kids under 18 - are we going to raise restrictions there? We are not reaching Covid zero and I struggle to understand why we are so reticent to get back to a reasonable sense of normalcy. Why must the kids be the only ones (along with those in airplanes) that have this constant mask mandate? Why am I stuck in a foreign country for two weeks if I test positive for Omicron Covid but not the flu - when we know the flu is materially more harmful than the Omicron?

One thing I learned as a PPS major is that making policy is hard. The individual stories are tough and difficult but when reviewed in the context of the entire country do they really justify the continued restrictions on everyone? I guess that’s a personal question for everyone but in case it’s not apparent I believe we’ve reached the point, 2 years in, where everyone needs to be responsible for their own choices and decisions.

The only caveat in my mind is an overburdened healthcare system, but I think we are going to need a new way to think about Covid and medical care as well. More clinics and outpatient centers clear of hospitals and less panic using the ER as a primary care physician.

[Channing]

I wouldn't call Bari Weiss's point strong. What does she mean by getting on with one's life? How, exactly, do the parents of the children who have died from covid get on with their lives? How exactly do the children whose parents have died from covid get on with their lives? If I had been a guest sitting next to Bari Weiss, I would have asked her those questions. Children under 5 cannot get vaccinated yet and even though the deaths are "rare", children under 5 have died from covid. Covid is one of the top 10 leading causes of death in people under 18 for the last two years running. Yes, we should be doing a much better job of figuring out ways for kids to be able to be in school without masks, but until we do, the schools need to do something to at least try to protect the vulnerable children. I mean, who among us is OK with our child being one of the rare deaths? Anybody who isn't OK with their kid being one of the dead ones needs to realize that we will be sacrificing children so that adults can get on with their lives. Right now a deadly virus is still raging and our hospitals are still stretched too thin. We can start talking about removing the restrictions when we can be reasonably sure there will be a hospital bed available for every sick child who needs one. That said, I agree that adults who remain unvaccinated are on their own.

Bari Weiss completely lost me when she said, "Only 803 children have died from covid." Only. That's 803 families that will never be the same. Those families aren't getting on with their lives. Ever. If we as a society showed any inclination to protect our children so that we would keep the number of families who will never truly recover from the pandemic to an absolute minimum, then you could get me on board with some of the suggestions, but when you start talking about how rare the deaths are among children, you show yourself to be too callous to be given the power to make policy decisions. Bari Weiss didn't make a strong point, she made a callous, entitled, clueless point.

We can agree to disagree on the last paragraph. Again, the death of a child is unimaginable - my son has Covid right now and the thought crept into my mind when he was diagnosed. Talking about “only” x deaths in children is horrible. But we still let kids ride in cars even though there are probably about the same number of deaths from car accidents in kids as from COVID (pure speculation on my part). Again - is the policy for Covid zero? Is the policy to sacrifice IQ points of kids in exchange for being masked at school forever? Policy makers have incredibly difficult jobs in this respect - I’m glad it’s not my job. But if someone wants to protect their child 100% they should have the option for remote learning and if I want my child to learn without a mask, that should be my prerogative.

[BlueDevil2K]

Why am I stuck in a foreign country for two weeks if I test positive for Omicron Covid but not the flu - when we know the flu is materially more harmful than the Omicron?

Do we actually know this?

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/flu...n-nc/20102856/

In North Carolina, it appears that dozens of people per day are dying of Covid (and Omicron is dominant), while 7 people have died of flu this flu season.

I fully expect that Covid cases are going to decrease substantially over the next few weeks, and hospitalization numbers will probably be close behind. Come Spring, I actually expect that we'll see a move towards normalcy. I just don't understand why so many people are pushing for it now, when massive numbers of people are infected, hospitalized, and (yes) dying.