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  1. #18081
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I don't think the FDA or CDC have approved both!
    I'll start my own clinical trial.

  2. #18082
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/healt...-bn/index.html

    Small sample size, so I am dubious of that quoted number, but it looks like there is significant benefit from the booster.

  3. #18083
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    And say "Sorry" a lot.
    Also ouuut

  4. #18084
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    One for the crowd: A college aged kid of mine got a J&J. Given today’s news, which booster would be best?

    -jk
    Quote Originally Posted by YmoBeThere View Post
    This being today's news:

    F.D.A. to Allow ‘Mix and Match’ Approach for Covid Booster Shots

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/u...-boosters.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Just in case someone doesn't bother to click the link, because I recall some discussion earlier (I think in this thread) about it possibly being beneficial to mix and match:
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Not everyone agrees with this. E.g., https://www.statnews.com/2021/10/20/...derna-johnson/

    "It remains to be seen if the CDC — on the advice of the ACIP — turns that permissive recommendation into a preferential one, urging people who got the J&J vaccine to get an mRNA dose as their booster shot. The committee has been concerned for some time about the situation people who got the J&J’s one-and-done vaccine find themselves in, given that the vaccine is less effective than the mRNA vaccines at protecting against Covid infection."

    And this, for those of you who have WaPo subscriptions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ooster-pfizer/

    Personally, as a J&J one shotter, I'm leaning to whichever of the mRNA vaccines I can get in the next week.
    Seems like there's not enough data yet and not enough controlled experiments to do comparisons to see the "optimal" mix and match. So, no recommendations and basically "do what you want" but all combinations increase protection. I would probably go with an mRNA one if I got JnJ before...As a Moderna recipient (that doesn't qualify for a booster yet), not sure what I'd do next. Probably stick with mRNA, but maybe there is some advantage to two different technologies...Seems like nobody knows yet, and are just guessing mostly.

    Causes some confusion perhaps, but I still like it because there is data to show increased protection with the "mix and match" and affords people more flexibility. So, it's not harmful and is helpful, just don't have enough data to be "optimally" helpful yet. But I'll take flexibility and helpful for now rather than waiting for the bureaucratic process further to try to achieve the perfection that doesn't exist.

  5. #18085
    Silly question that has probably been asked/answered before - is there a test to see if you vaccination is still working/protecting like it is supposed to work? I think if you had Covid they can test for the antibodies. Does that work for the vaccinated as well? Or am I making that up?

    I'm just an accountant who loses track of medical info after a while.

  6. #18086
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInKansas View Post
    Silly question that has probably been asked/answered before - is there a test to see if you vaccination is still working/protecting like it is supposed to work? I think if you had Covid they can test for the antibodies. Does that work for the vaccinated as well? Or am I making that up?

    I'm just an accountant who loses track of medical info after a while.
    Yes. There is an antibody test.

  7. #18087
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInKansas View Post
    Silly question that has probably been asked/answered before - is there a test to see if you vaccination is still working/protecting like it is supposed to work? I think if you had Covid they can test for the antibodies. Does that work for the vaccinated as well? Or am I making that up?

    I'm just an accountant who loses track of medical info after a while.
    There is a spike protein antibody test and there is a nucleocapsid protein antibody test; people who are infected make antibodies to both antigens, but those who are vaccinated only make antibody to the spike protein (there is no nucleocapsid antigen in the vaccine).

    HOWEVER, we do not yet know the correlates of protection; in other words, we don't know what level of antibody is protective. Therefore, drawing an antibody test could tell you whether you had detectable antibodies, but it can't tell you how protected you are. Therefore, for right now at least, it seems like a waste of time and money.

    I am hopeful that over time we will figure out what level of residual antibody is required to keep people healthy. If we knew that, antibody testing could become helpful.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  8. #18088
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is a spike protein antibody test and there is a nucleocapsid protein antibody test; people who are infected make antibodies to both antigens, but those who are vaccinated only make antibody to the spike protein (there is no nucleocapsid antigen in the vaccine).

    HOWEVER, we do not yet know the correlates of protection; in other words, we don't know what level of antibody is protective. Therefore, drawing an antibody test could tell you whether you had detectable antibodies, but it can't tell you how protected you are. Therefore, for right now at least, it seems like a waste of time and money.

    I am hopeful that over time we will figure out what level of residual antibody is required to keep people healthy. If we knew that, antibody testing could become helpful.
    Isn't some of the protection also afforded by T Cells? Is there a test for that? I haven't heard of one.

    Sounds like we can't really test how much "protection" we possess based on these tests at the moment (based on what you said). Interesting, though, that I believe antibody levels is what is being used as evidence COVID vaccine protection for children given they couldn't gauge it based on infection/severe disease like adults given such low numbers. But I guess we know it's SOME indication of protection, but just don't know what levels/how much are really needed.

  9. #18089
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is a spike protein antibody test and there is a nucleocapsid protein antibody test; people who are infected make antibodies to both antigens, but those who are vaccinated only make antibody to the spike protein (there is no nucleocapsid antigen in the vaccine).

    HOWEVER, we do not yet know the correlates of protection; in other words, we don't know what level of antibody is protective. Therefore, drawing an antibody test could tell you whether you had detectable antibodies, but it can't tell you how protected you are. Therefore, for right now at least, it seems like a waste of time and money.

    I am hopeful that over time we will figure out what level of residual antibody is required to keep people healthy. If we knew that, antibody testing could become helpful.
    I had my yearly physical and review of bloodwork last week and my primary care physician said the exact same thing. Apparently my COVID antibodies are off the charts, but she said they have no way of interpreting this and suggested I get a booster in a few months anyway. Always great to know I'm getting advice consistent with a true expert like rsvman!
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  10. #18090
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Just went down to see my special doc in Boston, and she told me she's found that some of her patients have shown low antibody levels...she indicated a general range she'd like to see me in, but emphasized how it's not 100% clear...so off I go soon for another test. Hope I fall within her happy range.

  11. #18091
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Seems like there's not enough data yet and not enough controlled experiments to do comparisons to see the "optimal" mix and match. So, no recommendations and basically "do what you want" but all combinations increase protection. I would probably go with an mRNA one if I got JnJ before...As a Moderna recipient (that doesn't qualify for a booster yet), not sure what I'd do next. Probably stick with mRNA, but maybe there is some advantage to two different technologies...Seems like nobody knows yet, and are just guessing mostly.

    Causes some confusion perhaps, but I still like it because there is data to show increased protection with the "mix and match" and affords people more flexibility. So, it's not harmful and is helpful, just don't have enough data to be "optimally" helpful yet. But I'll take flexibility and helpful for now rather than waiting for the bureaucratic process further to try to achieve the perfection that doesn't exist.
    The “hunch” I’ve heard from doctor friends is the a mix of mRNA vaccines is the best approach.

  12. #18092
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Isn't some of the protection also afforded by T Cells? Is there a test for that? I haven't heard of one.

    Sounds like we can't really test how much "protection" we possess based on these tests at the moment (based on what you said). Interesting, though, that I believe antibody levels is what is being used as evidence COVID vaccine protection for children given they couldn't gauge it based on infection/severe disease like adults given such low numbers. But I guess we know it's SOME indication of protection, but just don't know what levels/how much are really needed.
    There is no test for T-cell protection.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  13. #18093
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    The “hunch” I’ve heard from doctor friends is the a mix of mRNA vaccines is the best approach.
    I had Pfizer initially and got my Pfizer booster today. I actually would have preferred to get a Moderna booster but CVS (where I had my appt) didn't have it. I could have cancelled my appt but I just didn't want to wait any longer. I'm 8 months post 2nd shot and in a somewhat vulnerable group.

    Maybe Booster II will be Moderna.

  14. #18094
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Right

    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is no test for T-cell protection.
    T-cell levels are something researchers are looking at, however, so maybe there will be a test in the future. From the NYT:

    Dr. Lyke cautioned against drawing hasty conclusions from the results so far.
    The researchers hope that by next month they’ll know how well the different boosters increase T cells, not just antibodies. It’s possible that Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine will shine in those results. “We’ll get a more rounded picture,” she said.

    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10...ccine-boosters
    Last edited by MChambers; 10-21-2021 at 05:29 PM. Reason: fixed typo

  15. #18095
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    T-cell levels are something researchers are looking at, however, so maybe there will be a test in the future. From the NYT:

    Dr. Lyke cautioned against drawing hasty conclusions from the results so far.
    The researchers hope that by next month they’ll know how well the different boosters increase T cells, not just antibodies. It’s possible that Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine will shine in those results. “We’ll get a more rounded picture,” she said.

    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10...ccine-boosters
    There are lots of ways to look at T cell protection and lots of studies. We know what to look for in a relative sense. Treatment A is stronger than Treatment B for this key parameter.
    Here is a link describing a recently published study looking at COVID CD4 T cell responses from a prominent researcher (and former colleague) at Penn. It details differing levels of T cell responses seen in different COVID cohorts. Double vaccinees, COVID positive with one vaccination, etc.

    https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/ne...vid19-vaccines

    However, there are no set correlates of protection for T cells (what exactly is the right measurement or how much of that measurement might be needed) and as rsvman mentioned there is definitely not a diagnostic, clinical test for T cell protection for COVID or any other virus as far as I am aware.
    Coach K on Kyle Singler - "What position does he play? ... He plays winner."

    "Duke is never the underdog" - Quinn Cook

  16. #18096
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Yes. There is an antibody test.
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is a spike protein antibody test and there is a nucleocapsid protein antibody test; people who are infected make antibodies to both antigens, but those who are vaccinated only make antibody to the spike protein (there is no nucleocapsid antigen in the vaccine).

    HOWEVER, we do not yet know the correlates of protection; in other words, we don't know what level of antibody is protective. Therefore, drawing an antibody test could tell you whether you had detectable antibodies, but it can't tell you how protected you are. Therefore, for right now at least, it seems like a waste of time and money.

    I am hopeful that over time we will figure out what level of residual antibody is required to keep people healthy. If we knew that, antibody testing could become helpful.
    Thank you for the responses - especially the details, rsvman.

  17. #18097
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    What booster to get?

    Here's YLE on boosters. A lot seems to depend on your risk profile. For me, being a 64 year old male who got a shot of J&J in February, it seems that I should get an mRNA vaccine. Hard to choose between Pfizer and Moderna. I'll probably go with whichever of those two I can get in the next week.

    https://yourlocalepidemiologist.subs...-get-data-from

  18. #18098
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Raleigh,NC
    Got the Pfizer boost today. Nasty arm pain with this one. Hopefully I don’t wake up at 2 am freezing to death like I did with #2. We shall see!

  19. #18099
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Raleigh,NC
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Got the Pfizer boost today. Nasty arm pain with this one. Hopefully I don’t wake up at 2 am freezing to death like I did with #2. We shall see!
    My reaction to #3 has been much better. Woke up with a headache and some pretty nasty arm soreness but that’s about it. None of the fever/chills/fatigue I had with #2.

  20. #18100
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Got the Pfizer boost today. Nasty arm pain with this one. Hopefully I don’t wake up at 2 am freezing to death like I did with #2. We shall see!
    That was my experience with dose #2 (except that it hit me about an hour before I planned on going to bed instead of after). My arm was sore before I was done waiting the 15 minutes for allergic reactions, which I took as a bad sign (I never had any arm soreness or symptoms with dose #1). Fingers crossed!

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