PlagueWatch 2020-23 - Coronavirus

[wavedukefan70s]

Just an observation from my own circle (I am not claiming it generalizes), but I have been a little surprised for years at how open some medical professionals (not necessarily doctors, although I also don't know that many doctors closely anyway) are to junk medical science generally (I'm going to decline to elaborate on the things I consider junk medical science because I would guess there is a 100% chance that there are people on this board who take some of them very seriously and I don't want to fully open that can of worms).

Lol we have a root doctor not far from here.for sprains and strains i have to admit hes got some credibility.
There hs to be some medical explanation though.

Clay vinegar and who knows what in saran wrap around a ankle .
Has to be some plant with some kind of properties that are explainable.

That being said for real medical problems id go to a MD .

I have heard of people passing out from putting Spanish moss in thier shoes to lower blood pressure.
Old gullah root medicine.

What it does i dont know .i wont try it what am i going to do if i pass out ?

Probably does nothing but i dont want
redbugsOn me either.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Interesting that the NBA is requiring everyone but players to be vaccinated. Though it sounds like they will make life difficult for those who are not vaccinated, such as sitting separately at meals and during travel. I am somewhat surprised that they are not requiring it. Interesting that I believe the Net, Knicks and Warriors players are required to be vaxxed due to local laws - this could theoretically stand in the way of trades or free agent movement.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...19-vaccination

[Acymetric]

Interesting that the NBA is requiring everyone but players to be vaccinated. Though it sounds like they will make life difficult for those who are not vaccinated, such as sitting separately at meals and during travel. I am somewhat surprised that they are not requiring it. Interesting that I believe the Net, Knicks and Warriors players are required to be vaxxed due to local laws - this could theoretically stand in the way of trades or free agent movement.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...19-vaccination

Edit: Nevermind, I misunderstood what I read before.

[Ultrarunner]

One study was May - September 2020. The other was May 2020 - February 2021. The first US delta variant case was reported in March 2021. C'mon, Ultra - you know I checked those dates before I posted that it was all pre-delta!

The third study at the VA was conducted studying data from March 1, 2020, through June 30, 2021. Please note that I did reference three studies in the originating post and agreed with the pediatric statement that you made. I added information regarding the third study (which I have since found a link for) regarding pre- and post-delta.
I should have broken the information out better.

[Ultrarunner]

By the way, I hope everyone here is a Devil's Advocate. :-)

You must spread some Comments . . .

[cato]

Just an observation from my own circle (I am not claiming it generalizes), but I have been a little surprised for years at how open some medical professionals (not necessarily doctors, although I also don't know that many doctors closely anyway) are to junk medical science generally (I'm going to decline to elaborate on the things I consider junk medical science because I would guess there is a 100% chance that there are people on this board who take some of them very seriously and I don't want to fully open that can of worms).

Back when I was a real estate lawyer at a law firm, I represented or negotiated against many a doctor. They had no special advantage in real estate investing, compared to others. More than a few overestimated their skills as a real estate investor, however.

For some doctors, the decision on whether or not to take a vaccine is closer to their core competency. Others, investing in real estate.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Agreed. But I think, at times, the narrative can become very binary. It's THAT OTHER side that's creating all the havoc.

Well, except that the ones throwing a fit and doing it for political reasons are definitely largely on one side.

The ones quietly not getting vaxxed and minding their own business are not posting on FB, causing a ruckus in stores, etc.

[Rich]

Last summer, my teen daughter had COVID and rode in a car with my septegenarian MIL for three hours, and somehow my MIL did not contract it. This was obviously pre-vaccine.

My daughter complains of being tired fairly frequently. We’ve been left to hope that it isn’t long COVID, but every time she complains about being tired for no good reason, I have to wonder.

Take solace in that she's a teen. My teen son is tired all the time too and never had Covid. My 22 year old daughter was the same a few years ago.

[cato]

Well, except that the ones throwing a fit and doing it for political reasons are definitely largely on one side.

The ones quietly not getting vaxxed and minding their own business are not posting on FB, causing a ruckus in stores, etc.

For a brief interlude that never came close to being a hot-vax-summer, fully vaxxed folks could come into the office without a mask. It was surprising to see who was quietly going about their business, not getting vaxxed and keeping their masks on. From what I can tell, the biggest concerns are impacts to fertility and concerns that side effects are being underreported.

[Bostondevil]

The third study at the VA was conducted studying data from March 1, 2020, through June 30, 2021. Please note that I did reference three studies in the originating post and agreed with the pediatric statement that you made. I added information regarding the third study (which I have since found a link for) regarding pre- and post-delta.
I should have broken the information out better.

Ah, Ok, now I see the VA study. But yeah, it's not been peer reviewed so not really a study yet. I will admit to peer review snobbery but I've been through peer review enough times to know that non peer-reviewed and/or unpublished reports are not 100% comparable to peer reviewed studies.

[Skydog]

I read the first article Ultrarunner linked and it was arguing - based on chart reviews - that at that hospital children hospitalized *with* covid were too often automatically classified as hospitalized *due* to covid.
For example a child with a history of psychiatric hospitalizations has an episode and has to be hospitalized. He or she also tests positive for covid. Did covid have a causal role in the hospitalization or was it just a tag-along issue? Only knowledge of the particulars of the case could answer that. So obviously if such cases were defaulted to the covid-hospitalization bin then indeed we would be overestimating the # of covid hospitalizations.

They acknowledge that even after thorough case reviews it is sometimes difficult or impossible to know whether or not covid was a contributing factor to their hospitalization. In this study they put ambiguous cases in the “covid hospitalization” bin. And despite this conservative approach they still found that in the one hospital they looked at they found a 40% over count.

Now if you trust their classifications, this doesn’t mean other hospitals are doing the same. But it also doesn’t mean they aren’t. It just suggests this issue should be looked at more closely if our true goal is getting an accurate count of covid hospitalizations.

Also I don’t think the fact that this study was done on a different variant or at a different time invalidates it’s findings. If there is a tendency for hospitals to overcount patients with covid as covid hospitalizations - that tendency will be there regardless of variant.

tldr vers; This study looked at one hospital and found a pattern of over/counting patients “hospitalized with covid” as “hospitalized due to covid.” Since accurate counts of covid hospitalizations are needed to guide public health policy decisions and to track covid trends over time. Further studies need to be carried out to see if this phenomenon is widespread or limited to this one hospital.

[PackMan97]

tldr vers; This study looked at one hospital and found a pattern of over/counting patients “hospitalized with covid” as “hospitalized due to covid.” Since accurate counts of covid hospitalizations are needed to guide public health policy decisions and to track covid trends over time. Further studies need to be carried out to see if this phenomenon is widespread or limited to this one hospital.

The question to ask is, once a patient has tested positive with COVID-19, does that change the way they are treated and how the hospital staff interact with that patient? I imagine it does, though I'm not a hospital worker. I know when my dad was hospitalized earlier this year with a MRSA, it changed the way nurses, doctors and orderlies had to behave around him to avoid spreading the disease. When my littlest one was in the NICU as a preemie, it was a huge deal when an infant was brought in a respiratory disease since it was really important to avoid infecting the infants that were there for other things and only making their situation worse.

So to that end, I don't know that it matters "hospitalized with covid" or "hospitalized because of covid" with regards to the strain on our hospitals. It certainly matters I suppose from a general "OMG! All the sick people", but that's a marketing thing really.

[tbyers11]

Nothing surprising in there to me. Previous to two years ago, it was the far left hippie mamas and the home school conservatives who didn't vax.

Agreed. But I think, at times, the narrative can become very binary. It's THAT OTHER side that's creating all the havoc.

I've found that the "far left hippies" who are anti-vax tend to be against all vaccines and the right wing anti-vax faction tends to be against only one vaccine

YMMV

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I've found that the "far left hippies" who are anti-vax tend to be against all vaccines and the right wing anti-vax faction tends to be against only one vaccine

YMMV

Great point. And that is what is so hypocritical about many of them. But the "expert research" they are doing in their conspiracy theory bunkers tells them they know more than the experts.

[Acymetric]

The question to ask is, once a patient has tested positive with COVID-19, does that change the way they are treated and how the hospital staff interact with that patient? I imagine it does, though I'm not a hospital worker. I know when my dad was hospitalized earlier this year with a MRSA, it changed the way nurses, doctors and orderlies had to behave around him to avoid spreading the disease. When my littlest one was in the NICU as a preemie, it was a huge deal when an infant was brought in a respiratory disease since it was really important to avoid infecting the infants that were there for other things and only making their situation worse.

So to that end, I don't know that it matters "hospitalized with covid" or "hospitalized because of covid" with regards to the strain on our hospitals. It certainly matters I suppose from a general "OMG! All the sick people", but that's a marketing thing really.

This is true if you are trying to gauge the impact of COVID on the way that hospitals operate (which is an important thing to know, to be sure). It doesn't hold if you're trying to determine how many COVID cases require hospitalization, which is also important to know.

[OldPhiKap]

I've found that the "far left hippies" who are anti-vax tend to be against all vaccines and the right wing anti-vax faction tends to be against only one vaccine

YMMV

Great point. And that is what is so hypocritical about many of them. But the "expert research" they are doing in their conspiracy theory bunkers tells them they know more than the experts.

Government? “I don’t trust them, they don’t have my best interest at heart.”
Medical experts? “I don’t believe them, they make money from this and said some incorrect things when we were still learning about the virus.”
Hospital statistics? “Easily manipulated for financial gain.”

Tucker Carlson? “That man speaks truth to power.’


I have stopped trying to discuss this with the non-believers. They will not be convinced; they do not want to be convinced.

I just sat a quick prayer for them, then distance myself as best I can. You’re on your own, Karen.

[Kdogg]

I've found that the "far left hippies" who are anti-vax tend to be against all vaccines and the right wing anti-vax faction tends to be against only one vaccine

YMMV

As an example, Mississippi has the highest childhood vaccination rate in the country but one of the lowest COVID vaccination rates.

[tbyers11]

the anti-vaxxer mantra is you cannot prove that this vaccine does not have long term side effects that no other vaccine has ever had so we should assume that it has these never before seen side effects. This sort of thinking will get and has gotten a lot of people killed.


https://www.paho.org/en/topics/immun...nization-myths

Agree. To prove that something that has never existed (long term severe side effect beyond 6 weeks post-vaccination) from any vaccine ever is going to happen with the COVID mRNA vaccine is problematic to me. I know that the unknown causes fear but the fact that we have 2-3 months of data from tens of millions 12-17 year olds and 6-8 months data from at least 500 million adults that have received COVID mRNA vaccinations is very reassuring to me. Nothing in biology is 100% definitive but I can't prove that the chicken salad sandwich I ate for lunch won't cause me to grow a third arm in 2024 either.

This article from Paul Offit discusses the historical lack of long term side effects from vaccines and also discusses that what is novel about mRNA vaccines (LNP and modified nucleosides) is MUCH more likely to cause short-term side effects (if any) than long-term side effects

[jimsumner]

Nothing in biology is 100% definitive but I can't prove that the chicken salad sandwich I ate for lunch won't cause me to grow a third arm in 2024 either.

Please let us know how that turns out. A third arm might prove to be useful.

[mkirsh]

Interesting article that posits anti-vaxxers come from both the Right and the Left. Well worth the 5 minute read.

https://www.thebulwark.com/anti-vax-...the-far-right/

Horseshoe Theory - the extreme ends of the political spectrum are closer to each other than the middle.