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  1. #7501
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Locally there is a lawyer who has a radio show in the mornings and he goes on and on about how it is "unconstitutional" to restrict numbers of people in one place and the wearing of masks. Last I heard he was touting "freedom of speech" and "the right of the people to peaceably assemble."

    I think the huge gulf between what Stray Gator is saying and what this guy is saying lies in the fact that this lawyer doesn't believe that COVID-19 is that much of a threat, and, furthermore, he doesn't believe that wearing masks will make any difference in its spread.
    The fire marshal says that we can only get 9,314 into Cameron. Next time students are turned away because it is full, I hope they blather on about their right to freely assemble inside and see how far it gets them.

    All rights are subject to reasonable restriction, especially when justified by health and safety. His views on this are pretty fringe.

  2. #7502
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post

    "Live Free and Die"
    "Live Free and Kill Grandma!"

    or maybe

    "Live Free and Kill the Bus Driver!"

  3. #7503
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Sadly, it often does when the regulation in question is a state regulation. If the governor says, "Police will not enforce this policy," they really can't, unless there is a separate, municipal policy which allows it. And some of those same governors have made such municipal policies impermissible.

    This is one reason why strong federal guidance would be helpful, even if it's not directly enforceable.
    Unless things have changed since I retired, all laws and regulations and policies -- no matter by what method they are enacted or adopted or promulgated -- are subject to challenge on constitutional grounds. And when they are challenged, the governmental official or body must demonstrate that the measure is supported by more than a mere belief. Even in the situation you describe, where a governor decrees that the police will not enforce a policy, a person who is adversely affected by the refusal to enforce the policy may have standing to seek judicial relief -- certainly if the policy has the force of law, but even a discretionary policy if the effect of its application (and non-application) results in a discriminatory impact. (If I'm overstating or misstating the law, I trust that someone here who is better qualified will correct me.)

  4. #7504
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Texas

    Schools in the Fall

    The American Academy of Pediatrics released guidance last week on re-entry into schools this fall:
    https://services.aap.org/en/pages/20...on-in-schools/

    The AAP strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming school year should start with a goal of having students physically present in school.
    They have recommendations on distancing, mask usage, screening, cleaning/disinfection, etc. with some variance for different age groups.

    Here is an interview by the NYT with one of the authors of the document. Not sure if this is pay-walled or part of their free coverage.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/u...lines-aap.html


    Like many of you, we are wondering what is going to happen this fall. Our oldest is entering kindergarten. One option would be to just wait until next year to start, but I'm not sure what we would do for that extra year. We also went through the process of GT testing and magnet applications/lottery to get a seat at our current school. Would we have to go through that same process again next year, with potentially more applicants for the same number of seats? Our school district has announced the academic calendar, but we're still waiting to hear more.

  5. #7505
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    He may also think that such rights are absolute. I noticed a clickbait headline to that effect on Google News - some outlet making hay about how JB supposedly doesn't believe these rights are absolute. Turns out, they're not. The archetypal example is that, due to the risk of deaths by stampede, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater (unless there is a fire, I guess). There are other such examples. In any case, the radio personality sounds like an absolutist, but I don't think that squares with SCOTUS opinions of the last century or more - if it ever did (I've read that it the enumerated rights have never been held to be absolute, but IANAL and admittedly have not studied the matter).

    Anyway, such absolutist beliefs would be independent of whether he felt masks had any beneficial effect.
    I HATE HATE HATE this example. Has anyone actually tried to yell fire in a crowded movie theater? Let me tell you, no riot breaks out. There is no stampede for the exits. What happens is you get pelted with popcorn. Some salty language is hurled your way (double the salt if the feature film has already started). Depending on how mad some folks are, you may find some theater personnel asking you to leave.

    As for the right to PEACEABLY assemble, assembling in a large group not wearing face coverings during a global pandemic is not my idea of "peaceably". That's a slam dunk case right there and I didn't even go to law school.

  6. #7506
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I HATE HATE HATE this example. Has anyone actually tried to yell fire in a crowded movie theater? Let me tell you, no riot breaks out.
    Easy now. The example is dated but it's a figure of speech at this point. Imminent threat to public safety and all that.

  7. #7507
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Anyone else feel that the "wear a mask" ship has already sailed (and perhaps sunk)? People seem SO polarized by it now, hard to imagine POTUS changing, nor his followers...

    Our governor is a Republican, has done a great job vs the virus in a very blue state, and he has strongly advocated masks from the get go. However, he pointedly says he urges their use but does not require them, and that seemingly has resulted in a very compliant citizenry...I think he's correct in thinking that requiring a mask just sets off this nonsensical freedom notion, and he's trying to avoid that...

    (It's also true, though, that most business DO require a mask...it's up to them...but that's a good thing, and I won't go in a place that doesn't require them)...

  8. #7508
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I HATE HATE HATE this example. Has anyone actually tried to yell fire in a crowded movie theater? Let me tell you, no riot breaks out. There is no stampede for the exits. What happens is you get pelted with popcorn. Some salty language is hurled your way (double the salt if the feature film has already started). Depending on how mad some folks are, you may find some theater personnel asking you to leave.

    As for the right to PEACEABLY assemble, assembling in a large group not wearing face coverings during a global pandemic is not my idea of "peaceably". That's a slam dunk case right there and I didn't even go to law school.
    We could update it to gun instead of fire.

    Back on topic.

    SC Governor Henry McMaster is ramping up his rhetoric but no actions. He claims he will not allow fall college or high school football unless things change. Maybe he thinks the threat will bring about change. Still no statewide mask mandate, and bars open I hope after the 4th he will push something with some teeth. The area is already seeing a decline in reservations after the holiday. Quarantine orders from WV, VA, NY and NJ and media coverage is doing what the government refuses to do - keep people away. And this is coming from someone who will be finically impacted by anything

  9. #7509
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    We could update it to gun instead of fire.

    Back on topic.

    SC Governor Henry McMaster is ramping up his rhetoric but no actions. He claims he will not allow fall college or high school football unless things change. Maybe he thinks the threat will bring about change. Still no statewide mask mandate, and bars open I hope after the 4th he will push something with some teeth. The area is already seeing a decline in reservations after the holiday. Quarantine orders from WV, VA, NY and NJ and media coverage is doing what the government refuses to do - keep people away. And this is coming from someone who will be finically impacted by anything
    McMaster has really boxed himself in by saying he thinks mask mandates are unconstitutional. SC pretty clearly needs a mandate, but if he reverses course, the inevitable constitutional challenge will be fueled by his own previous statements.

  10. #7510
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Anyone else feel that the "wear a mask" ship has already sailed (and perhaps sunk)? People seem SO polarized by it now, hard to imagine POTUS changing, nor his followers...
    I don't. We have been in South Carolina at the beach for about a week. Behavior has changed massively during the time we've been here. Mask ordinance went into effect yesterday. % of people wearing masks in the grocery store and around the shopping area has gone from 50% / 20% to 100% / 80% overnight.

  11. #7511
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    ^ that's good to hear.

  12. #7512
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    I don't. We have been in South Carolina at the beach for about a week. Behavior has changed massively during the time we've been here. Mask ordinance went into effect yesterday. % of people wearing masks in the grocery store and around the shopping area has gone from 50% / 20% to 100% / 80% overnight.
    Maybe I'll check out my local SC Home Depot and Lowes again.* For the past month or so those have been scary places for us at risk folks with a very small percentage of people bothering with masks.


    *I'll go sit in the parking lot for a bit and count percentages of people entering and leaving.

  13. #7513
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Anyone else feel that the "wear a mask" ship has already sailed (and perhaps sunk)? People seem SO polarized by it now, hard to imagine POTUS changing, nor his followers...
    No, I don't think it has sunk, but I think the anti-maskers have completed WASTED the sacrifice people made in late March, April and early May. We basically put the economy in the crapper for a good two months for no reason (aside from the NYC metro area) because folks refused to wear a mask when stay at home orders started relaxing.

    It makes me mad, mad, mad!

  14. #7514
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    Maybe I'll check out my local SC Home Depot and Lowes again.* For the past month or so those have been scary places for us at risk folks with a very small percentage of people bothering with masks.


    *I'll go sit in the parking lot for a bit and count percentages of people entering and leaving.
    No kidding. They have six foot markers at the checkout but that extends the line into the aisles where half the store passes by you. They open at 6 am Monday through Saturday. Try to go then. It’s mainly the employees (who are masked) and a couple other early birds. A lot less congested. Or checkout in the garden section. At least you are outside.

  15. #7515
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    On the positive side, the US death chart continues to decline - although it's been more "stable" over the last week. We'll see if that continues over the next 2-3 weeks as death is certainly a trailing indicator of total cases. So, I *hope* the increase is largely due to increased testing; otherwise, we'd expect a big spike in the daily death count soon. The data does seem to support the average age of a person acquiring COVID has dropped considerably from April. So, the decrease in death count is probably a combination of 1.) more testing, 2.) younger people getting infected vs. older people, 3.) better awareness and hospital treatments. How much each of those contributes to it is hard to say...but certainly the total count graph on its own looks VERY bad.
    Attachment 10968
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Personally, I think governments and people should be taking more risk on the education aspect of things vs. going out to bars. In other words, if there's going to relax standards/leaving the house, it should be for things that have a fundamental positive impact on our society (kids going to school) and those same standards should NOT be for having a drink at a bar...But seems like the same standards are being applied to both situations - in fact, I'd say there are fewer standards/protocols for casinos/bars/etc. and more unnecessary risk taking in some places than for places of education. If we're going to "start getting back to normal," I'd like to see schools/daycares be way more open than restaurants/bars. Seems lower risk and higher reward.
    Well, I'm quoting myself because today's NY Times Daily briefing hits both of the above points.
    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    There is one important bright spot: The percentage of virus patients who die from it has continued to decline...Here’s how to understand it, based on two main causes — and one big caveat:
    1.) Medical treatment has improved...
    2.) Older people are being more careful...
    The caveat: Deaths may be on the verge of rising again. The flip side of the greater caution among the elderly is that many middle-aged and younger people are acting as if they’re invulnerable. Their increased social activity has fueled an explosion in cases over the last three weeks, which in turn could lead to a rise in deaths soon. The timing remains unclear. In the spring, the trend line for deaths lagged the trend line for cases by only about a week. But that may have reflected the relatively modest number of tests being done at the time. With testing now more widespread, it’s possible that the death data will lag the case data by closer to a month. (In a typical fatal case, the death comes three to five weeks after contraction of the virus.) If that’s correct, coronavirus deaths may start rising again any day
    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    A growing number of pediatricians, childhood experts and parents are arguing that schools need to reopen this fall, even if it increases the risk of spreading the coronavirus. “Widespread school closures come with devastating costs,” Joseph G. Allen of Harvard University wrote in The Washington Post...In a new Times piece, Deb Perelman writes: “Let me say the quiet part loud. In the Covid-19 economy, you’re allowed only a kid or a job.” [...] One way to offset the health risks is to delay the reopening of other industries. “If we truly want to prioritize schools opening and staying open, some other parts of our society might just have to wait,” Helen Jenkins, a Boston University epidemiologist, tweeted. Or as Jennifer Nuzzo and Joshua Sharfstein put it in a Times Op-Ed, the country should focus on opening schools, not bars.

  16. #7516
    Report from a local hospital here. Deaths may be going down, but serious health situations are rising rapidly. Not sure how well this link works here:

    https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=265849088013106&_rdr

  17. #7517
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC

    We are screwed

    if this represents the generation that will be responsible for taking care of us in our fading years. Thinking about heading to hills and building a fortress.

    https://abc11.com/health/some-studen...ected/6291801/

  18. #7518
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    Thinking about heading to hills and building a fortress.
    Read Cory Doctorow's modernized Masque of the Red Death first.

    But yeah, kids are stupid. I did some stupid stuff as a kid too. You think you're invulnerable. Wait til one of their friends gets seriously ill. Or more likely, an older relative.

  19. #7519
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    if this represents the generation that will be responsible for taking care of us in our fading years. Thinking about heading to hills and building a fortress.

    https://abc11.com/health/some-studen...ected/6291801/
    Yeah, I heard about this too. Very odd. I doubt it's very widespread and perhaps is even a rumor without fact. I had heard of "chicken pox" parties back in the day though. Certainly, chicken pox and COVID are not the same, but the idea was for people to get it together to get over with it...I know parents that encouraged their children to give it to their siblings so they'd be done with it and have it at the same time.

  20. #7520
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Yeah, I heard about this too. Very odd. I doubt it's very widespread and perhaps is even a rumor without fact. I had heard of "chicken pox" parties back in the day though. Certainly, chicken pox and COVID are not the same, but the idea was for people to get it together to get over with it...I know parents that encouraged their children to give it to their siblings so they'd be done with it and have it at the same time.
    The other point with "pox parties" is that it's better to control when you get it..then say during the school year, or the holidays, or around a kid's birthday...and of course folks knew that getting pox once was a lifetime immunization. I don't think much thought was given to shingles latter in life, but then again how many of us made it until now without getting the chicken pox?

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