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  1. #18001
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    OK, I'll preface this by reminding you that you did ask - yes, you are wrong.
    I'm good with being wrong. I never claim to be right all the time and being wrong is how you learn. This is what I found which does appear I over-stated things a bit perhaps.

    Influenza hospitalization rates for the 2019 season: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html
    0-17 years: 39,205 for a population of 9,641,666; or 406 per 100,000 for the entire influenza season
    65+: 204,326 for a population of 2,247,586l or 9,090 per 100,000 for the entire influenza season

    The 65+ to 0-17 "ratio" for influenza is 22.3x.

    COVID weekly hospitalization rate (pre-vaccine roll-out at peak, week ending Jan 2, 2021)
    https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html
    0-17 years: 1.1 per 100,000 population
    65+ years: 69.6 per 100,000 population

    The 65+ to 0-17 "ratio" for COVID-19 is 63x. Admittedly, will vary depending on exact date you choose. A cumulative percentage would be more accurate but don't have the time to come up with it.

    Still, approximately tripling the "age hospitalization ratio" seems significant to me. Happy to see data for other diseases.

    Edit: I found this which shows a 65+ to 0-17 ratio for COVID-19 of 36x (slide 6) using March-Nov 2020 data, so that shows a more "muted" discrepancy than I listed above. Still, a 50% larger ratio than influenza but not 300%.
    Last edited by Bluedog; 10-13-2021 at 10:57 PM.

  2. #18002
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I'm good with being wrong. I never claim to be right all the time and being wrong is how you learn. This is what I found which does appear I over-stated things a bit perhaps.

    Influenza hospitalization rates for the 2019 season: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html
    0-17 years: 39,205 for a population of 9,641,666; or 406 per 100,000 for the entire influenza season
    65+: 204,326 for a population of 2,247,586l or 9,090 per 100,000 for the entire influenza season

    The 65+ to 0-17 "ratio" for influenza is 22.3x.

    COVID weekly hospitalization rate (pre-vaccine roll-out at peak, week ending Jan 2, 2021)
    https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html
    0-17 years: 1.1 per 100,000 population
    65+ years: 69.6 per 100,000 population

    The 65+ to 0-17 "ratio" for COVID-19 is 63x. Admittedly, will vary depending on exact date you choose. A cumulative percentage would be more accurate but don't have the time to come up with it.

    Still, approximately tripling the "age hospitalization ratio" seems significant to me. Happy to see data for other diseases.

    Edit: I found this which shows a 65+ to 0-17 ratio for COVID-19 of 36x (slide 6) using March-Nov 2020 data, so that shows a more "muted" discrepancy than I listed above. Still, a 50% larger ratio than influenza but not 300%.
    What is the question you are asking the data? If what you want to compare is rates of hospitalizations between over 65s and under 18s by disease, then you either have to limit your comparisons to people who only have one condition or you have to adjust for comorbidities. Someone can be hospitalized testing positive for covid and flu at the same time. They might also have cancer or heart disease or both. Older people have, on average, many more comorbidities than younger people. I rather suspect that if we looked at all the vaccinated yet still hospitalized grandmas who have covid and nothing else, they would have lower hospitalization rates than unvaccinated under 18 year olds who have covid and nothing else.

  3. #18003
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Iím thinking about purchasing one for my sonís classroom. Is there one you suggest?
    Yes. Contact me with a message and Iíll tell you about the true air purifiers that I sell. Watch this video
    www.multiclusterionization.com.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  4. #18004
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by kshepinthehouse View Post
    Aren’t Covid particles smaller than what your machine is rated to extract from the air?
    Yes. HEPA filters are passive devices that can trap particles that are 0.3 microns or larger. Covid particles are 0.07 to 0.12 microns in size. In passive devices the target has to travel to the device, like a mouse trap waiting for a mouse to find the bait in the trap. A cat searching for a mouse is proactive. My air purifiers are proactive. And the technology used is not size dependent.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  5. #18005
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    Yes. HEPA filters are passive devices that can trap particles that are 0.3 microns or larger. Covid particles are 0.07 to 0.12 microns in size. In passive devices the target has to travel to the device, like a mouse trap waiting for a mouse to find the bait in the trap. A cat searching for a mouse is proactive. My air purifiers are proactive. And the technology used is not size dependent.
    rsvman made a point about particle size recently:

    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    This is also overlooking a pretty obvious point that people seem to routinely miss, and that is that the virus is shed from the respiratory system in droplets, not as naked virus. Therefore, the size of the actual virus is not really the target size of particles that need to be filtered, but the size of the respiratory droplets containing the virus.
    -jk

  6. #18006
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    What is the question you are asking the data? If what you want to compare is rates of hospitalizations between over 65s and under 18s by disease, then you either have to limit your comparisons to people who only have one condition or you have to adjust for comorbidities. Someone can be hospitalized testing positive for covid and flu at the same time. They might also have cancer or heart disease or both. Older people have, on average, many more comorbidities than younger people. I rather suspect that if we looked at all the vaccinated yet still hospitalized grandmas who have covid and nothing else, they would have lower hospitalization rates than unvaccinated under 18 year olds who have covid and nothing else.
    I am not sure that's the question Bluedog is asking (or at least it is just one of the questions being asked). I think he or she is talking about the degree to which the hospitalization risk difference by age (unadjusted for other covariates) is higher with COVID than it is with other conditions. So for that he/she would not need to adjust for comorbidities.

    For the question about why elderly vaccinated people are so much worse off than unvaccinated children, the answer is simple. They have more comorbidities and a generally less healthy immune system than children. That is one of the main reasons why they were among the first to be vaccinated: because the disease hits them harder than it hits children.

    For the question about COVID's age impact relative to other diseases, COVID does appear to have a larger gradient than other diseases.

    The disease impacts are interesting in that with pneumococcal disease and flu the youngest children DO fair worse than older children or young adults. So that is an interesting difference because COVID doesn't seem to impact the youngest young to the same degree relative to older children/young adults as other respiratory conditions. That's an area where we still don't fully understand the disease. And that is probably why the relative impact on the elderly is so much higher for COVID than it is for other respiratory diseases; in other diseases the youngest young also have severe outcomes, whereas with COVID the youngest young are proportionately less affected.

  7. #18007
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I am not sure that's the question Bluedog is asking (or at least it is just one of the questions being asked). I think he or she is talking about the degree to which the hospitalization risk difference by age (unadjusted for other covariates) is higher with COVID than it is with other conditions. So for that he/she would not need to adjust for comorbidities.

    For the question about why elderly vaccinated people are so much worse off than unvaccinated children, the answer is simple. They have more comorbidities and a generally less healthy immune system than children. That is one of the main reasons why they were among the first to be vaccinated: because the disease hits them harder than it hits children.

    For the question about COVID's age impact relative to other diseases, COVID does appear to have a larger gradient than other diseases.

    The disease impacts are interesting in that with pneumococcal disease and flu the youngest children DO fair worse than older children or young adults. So that is an interesting difference because COVID doesn't seem to impact the youngest young to the same degree relative to older children/young adults as other respiratory conditions. That's an area where we still don't fully understand the disease. And that is probably why the relative impact on the elderly is so much higher for COVID than it is for other respiratory diseases; in other diseases the youngest young also have severe outcomes, whereas with COVID the youngest young are proportionately less affected.
    I'm not either, that's why I asked.

    We both said the same thing regarding why the elderly are hospitalized at higher rates - they have more comorbidities. The interesting comparison would be to look at hospitalization rates in people with no comorbidities - does the age difference disappear when you do that? As for covid being different in its impact on younger children versus other respiratory diseases - my understanding is that covid is primarily a disease of the cardiovascular system. Does covid's impact differ from other cardiovascular diseases in its impact on younger children?

  8. #18008
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    [...] I think he or she is talking about the degree to which the hospitalization risk difference by age (unadjusted for other covariates) is higher with COVID than it is with other conditions.[...]
    For the question about COVID's age impact relative to other diseases, COVID does appear to have a larger gradient than other diseases.
    Thank you CDu. You hit my point on the head. That's exactly what I was asking and my point. So, according to CDu, I was right. My point is that COVID has a "larger gradient" (hospitalization risk differences by age) than other diseases and I was asking why OR if there are comparable "gradients" for other similarly transmitted diseases. I never suggested that other diseases have NO age differences, simply the degree to which it's impactful.

    Can't spork you, tried to...

  9. #18009
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostondevil View Post
    I'm not either, that's why I asked.

    We both said the same thing regarding why the elderly are hospitalized at higher rates - they have more comorbidities. The interesting comparison would be to look at hospitalization rates in people with no comorbidities - does the age difference disappear when you do that? As for covid being different in its impact on younger children versus other respiratory diseases - my understanding is that covid is primarily a disease of the cardiovascular system. Does covid's impact differ from other cardiovascular diseases in its impact on younger children?
    If you took away comorbidities, there would almost certainly still be a higher impact in elderly people if for no other reason than that elderly people have weak immune systems.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  10. #18010
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Thank you CDu. You hit my point on the head. That's exactly what I was asking and my point. So, according to CDu, I was right. My point is that COVID has a "larger gradient" (hospitalization risk differences by age) than other diseases and I was asking why OR if there are comparable "gradients" for other similarly transmitted diseases. I never suggested that other diseases have NO age differences, simply the degree to which it's impactful.

    Can't spork you, tried to...
    To be fair, I don't know if you were/are right or not . As BoDev mentions, there is at least some evidence to suggest that COVID is as much a cardiovascular disease as it is a respiratory disease. If so, that would potentially explain why it has a different effect than other respiratory diseases. But it might not have a larger gradient than other cardiovascular diseases (I don't have any idea on this one). It may come down to finding the right comparison.

    The challenge (and perhaps the explanation) of course is that COVID is simply different. It's not purely a respiratory disease, and it's not "just" a cardiovascular disease (if it even should be classified as more of a cardiovascular disease than respiratory disease). So comparing it with respiratory diseases may not be completely appropriate, and comparing it with cardiovascular disease is probably not appropriate.

  11. #18011
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To be fair, I don't know if you were/are right or not . As BoDev mentions, there is at least some evidence to suggest that COVID is as much a cardiovascular disease as it is a respiratory disease. If so, that would potentially explain why it has a different effect than other respiratory diseases. But it might not have a larger gradient than other cardiovascular diseases (I don't have any idea on this one). It may come down to finding the right comparison.

    The challenge (and perhaps the explanation) of course is that COVID is simply different. It's not purely a respiratory disease, and it's not "just" a cardiovascular disease (if it even should be classified as more of a cardiovascular disease than respiratory disease). So comparing it with respiratory diseases may not be completely appropriate, and comparing it with cardiovascular disease is probably not appropriate.
    Fair enough, thanks. Just a lot we still don't know...

  12. #18012
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    Feb 2007
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    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    If you took away comorbidities, there would almost certainly still be a higher impact in elderly people if for no other reason than that elderly people have weak immune systems.
    Yes, but the original comparison was unvaccinated younger people versus older vaccinated people, what happens to that comparison when you take away comorbidities?

  13. #18013
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To be fair, I don't know if you were/are right or not . As BoDev mentions, there is at least some evidence to suggest that COVID is as much a cardiovascular disease as it is a respiratory disease. If so, that would potentially explain why it has a different effect than other respiratory diseases. But it might not have a larger gradient than other cardiovascular diseases (I don't have any idea on this one). It may come down to finding the right comparison.

    The challenge (and perhaps the explanation) of course is that COVID is simply different. It's not purely a respiratory disease, and it's not "just" a cardiovascular disease (if it even should be classified as more of a cardiovascular disease than respiratory disease). So comparing it with respiratory diseases may not be completely appropriate, and comparing it with cardiovascular disease is probably not appropriate.
    How many other neurological and cardiovascular diseases out there are spread by aerosols? And also are respiratory diseases? What a nasty, nasty virus.
    Carolina delenda est

  14. #18014
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    How many other neurological and cardiovascular diseases out there are spread by aerosols? And also are respiratory diseases? What a nasty, nasty virus.
    I'm beginning to suspect that the virus infects much more readily than we have thus far thought and that it lies dormant for months or years. During this dormant stage the only visible symptom is that it causes an aversion to vaccines.

  15. #18015
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    Feb 2007
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    Lynchburg, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    rsvman made a point about particle size recently:



    -jk
    Yes. In addition to the fact that HEPA filters actually filter particles much smaller than .3 microns at near 100%.

  16. #18016
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    advisory committee meetings on boosters (vaccines, not basketball supporters)

    Here's a good summary of this week's FDA Advisory Committee meetings on boosters for Moderna and J&J vaccines and and the merits of mixing and matching boosters. Short version: you can only get a Moderna booster legally if you are 65 or older or are at higher risk of severe Covid. For J&J, you can get the booster if you got the J&J vaccine at least two months ago. (I fall in this category and will get the booster as soon as possible.) No decision was made on mixing and matching, but some advisory committee members were in favor of permitting this.

    https://yourlocalepidemiologist.subs...-notes-for-the

    Since this is primarily a basketball board, I'll point out that John Wooden apparently was quite fond of boosters, or at least one booster: Sam Gilbert.

  17. #18017
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Since this is primarily a basketball board, I'll point out that John Wooden apparently was quite fond of boosters, or at least one booster: Sam Gilbert.
    Sporks!

  18. #18018
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Here's a good summary of this week's FDA Advisory Committee meetings on boosters for Moderna and J&J vaccines and and the merits of mixing and matching boosters. Short version: you can only get a Moderna booster legally if you are 65 or older or are at higher risk of severe Covid. For J&J, you can get the booster if you got the J&J vaccine at least two months ago. (I fall in this category and will get the booster as soon as possible.) No decision was made on mixing and matching, but some advisory committee members were in favor of permitting this.

    https://yourlocalepidemiologist.subs...-notes-for-the

    Since this is primarily a basketball board, I'll point out that John Wooden apparently was quite fond of boosters, or at least one booster: Sam Gilbert.
    I suppose one could say that Sam provided a real shot in the arm for the program.


    I would never say that, but someone might.

  19. #18019
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Vermont
    got a flu shot (geezer edition) today just to keep my pin cushion of an arm warmed up.

  20. #18020
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    Feb 2007
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    Orlando, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Here's a good summary of this week's FDA Advisory Committee meetings on boosters for Moderna and J&J vaccines and and the merits of mixing and matching boosters. Short version: you can only get a Moderna booster legally if you are 65 or older or are at higher risk of severe Covid. For J&J, you can get the booster if you got the J&J vaccine at least two months ago. (I fall in this category and will get the booster as soon as possible.) No decision was made on mixing and matching, but some advisory committee members were in favor of permitting this.

    https://yourlocalepidemiologist.subs...-notes-for-the

    Since this is primarily a basketball board, I'll point out that John Wooden apparently was quite fond of boosters, or at least one booster: Sam Gilbert.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Sporks!
    As I am unable to currently spork MChambers I second the Sam Gilbert reference sporks
    Coach K on Kyle Singler - "What position does he play? ... He plays winner."

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