PlagueWatch 2020-23 - Coronavirus

[cspan37421]

<devil's advocate> Has there ever been an mRNA vaccine before? Has there? That's what I thought.</devil's advocate>

What was it that you (or your Devil's Advocate) thought, exactly?

I think mRNA vaccines have been around for decades ... just not for humans. First one tested in 1993, in mice (influenza), per Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

(there's a mention of Duke Medical Center elsewhere in there)

Anyway maybe this is the first mRNA vaccine approved for humans, but it's not like mRNA vaccine tech was invented out of whole cloth 18-20 months ago. That false belief feeds into the narrative that many vaccine hesitant hold on to: "it's too new, unproven, so I'm gonna wait for now until more data comes in" (as if they have an a priori notion of a level of data that will convince them)

[PackMan97]

What was it that you (or your Devil's Advocate) thought, exactly?

I think mRNA vaccines have been around for decades ... just not for humans.

Exactly! I got the Pfizer, so I have no issue. But I can certainly understand where some folks my take issue.

It's a bit like buying a car and giving up your horse and carriage. There are always people that will resist something new on the grounds that it is new.

[SouthernDukie]

<devil's advocate> Has there ever been an mRNA vaccine before? Has there? That's what I thought.</devil's advocate>

If your friend is worried about an mRNA vaccine and possible unknowns, they should get the Johnson and Johnson which uses a viral vector vaccine which have been around for quite some time.

disclaimer: I am not a virologist and I did not sleep at a holiday inn express last night.

Thanks, but I really would like my question answered by someone that does work in the field. Is it true that previous vaccines have never had side effects show up after six weeks? Or have some vaccines had side effects manifest many months or years later? This is a huge talking point for those that are anti-vax . I hear it over and over again. Adverse side effects could show up years later. I just want to know if the stats bear that out.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thanks, but I really would like my question answered by someone that does work in the field. Is it true that previous vaccines have never had side effects show up after six weeks? Or have some vaccines had side effects manifest many months or years later? This is a huge talking point for those that are anti-vax . I hear it over and over again. Adverse side effects could show up years later. I just want to know if the stats bear that out.

The obvious retort is the long term effects of COVID are unknown, but there are some very scary implications.

I don't work in the field and will shut up.

[tbyers11]

Thanks, but I really would like my question answered by someone that does work in the field. Is it true that previous vaccines have never had side effects show up after six weeks? Or have some vaccines had side effects manifest many months or years later? This is a huge talking point for those that are anti-vax . I hear it over and over again. Adverse side effects could show up years later. I just want to know if the stats bear that out.

Dr Paul Offit, MD, a renowned vaccines expert on the fact that vaccine side effects have never occurred after ~6 weeks.

Video discussing the topic

An article from Paul Offit that discusses the historical lack of long term side effects from vaccines and also discusses that what is novel about mRNA vaccines (LNP and modified nucleosides) is MUCH more likely to cause short-term side effects (if any) than long-term side effects

[SouthernDukie]

Dr Paul Offit, MD, a renowned vaccines expert on the fact that vaccine side effects have never occurred after ~6 weeks.

Video discussing the topic

An article from Paul Offit that discusses the historical lack of long term side effects from vaccines and also discusses that what is novel about mRNA vaccines (LNP and modified nucleosides) is MUCH more likely to cause short-term side effects (if any) than long-term side effects

Thanks. I just didn’t want to be engaging in dialogue with people and stating something that was patently false. I appreciate that information.

[SouthernDukie]

The obvious retort is the long term effects of COVID are unknown, but there are some very scary implications.

I don't work in the field and will shut up.

I have certainly used that retort on many occasions. But I just wanted to make sure my response to anti-vax arguments about side-effect timing was correct.

[cato]

Some people who have had covid and then gotten the vaccine are finding relief from the long term effects of covid though. We know that some people experience covid symptoms for months after they are no longer testing positive for the virus. There are other viral diseases the produce long term effects way down the road (chicken pox, mono, various herpes viruses), given that we know covid can produce long term symptoms already, why not get the vaccine? We have a vaccine that helps with the long term effects of chicken pox now, perhaps we will someday have one for the long term effects of covid, perhaps the ones we have now already do. Will we keep discovering long term effects of covid? I bet we haven't even scratched the surface of the kinds of long term damage covid can do.

I just don't get it with vaccines. If someone is truly worried about long term effects of medical treatment - they shouldn't get chemo if they have cancer, or have surgery of any kind, or, really, take aspirin every day. All of these things have known long term effects that are more significant than any vaccine where we have long term data.

Just yesterday I spoke with someone with a lofty position at a respected company that told me about one of their VPs who has had persistent health issues since they got their first shot in June or July. Well educated and successful people sincerely believe that there are real side effects and (I assume) that reporting is being suppressed.

[ClemmonsDevil]

Just yesterday I spoke with someone with a lofty position at a respected company that told me about one of their VPs who has had persistent health issues since they got their first shot in June or July. Well educated and successful people sincerely believe that there are real side effects and (I assume) that reporting is being suppressed.

It is the causation/correlation conundrum. People are wired to make connections, even where none exist.

[Bostondevil]

Just yesterday I spoke with someone with a lofty position at a respected company that told me about one of their VPs who has had persistent health issues since they got their first shot in June or July. Well educated and successful people sincerely believe that there are real side effects and (I assume) that reporting is being suppressed.

Has this person reported their suspected side effects to their doctor?

[ClemmonsDevil]

Has this person reported their suspected side effects to their doctor?

I think you know the answer.

[SouthernDukie]

Just yesterday I spoke with someone with a lofty position at a respected company that told me about one of their VPs who has had persistent health issues since they got their first shot in June or July. Well educated and successful people sincerely believe that there are real side effects and (I assume) that reporting is being suppressed.

Do you really believe that? I sincerely hope (and believe) that you are wrong about news suppression on this issue.

EDIT: So sorry, Cato. My bad. I didn’t read the sentence properly. You were only reporting the others believe that. And of course we all know that’s true.

[Skydog]

Just yesterday I spoke with someone with a lofty position at a respected company that told me about one of their VPs who has had persistent health issues since they got their first shot in June or July. Well educated and successful people sincerely believe that there are real side effects and (I assume) that reporting is being suppressed.

Was the person with the lofty position Nicki Minaj? I bet it was!

[cato]

Has this person reported their suspected side effects to their doctor?

I wouldn’t know, but they’ve been on a leave of absence from work and were in the hospital at some point, so they’ve at least discussed the issues with someone. I have no more details and no one is saying directly that the vaccine caused these issues, but when I was told about it there was a *wink/wink/nudge/nudge* understanding that of course the vaccine caused it.

I am scrupulously apolitical in the professional context, which sometimes leads to people thinking that I’m a safe person to, for example, share their anti-vax stories. And I have been very surprised by some of the people falling into these ways of thinking. In this case, there is a wellness lifestyle connection between the individuals.

[cato]

Was the person with the lofty position Nicki Minaj? I bet it was!

Ha! Lofty in a really boring way. Zero street cred, just like me.

[wavedukefan70s]

Went to blake shelton concert last night.
Masks required. So once in everyone takes thier mask off. I was only one i could see that had one on . i felt like the lone ranger in a covid crockpot .
People just don't care.
Quite disappointed in my fellow concert attendees.

[aimo]

Went to blake shelton concert last night.
Masks required. So once in everyone takes thier mask off. I was only one i could see that had one on . i felt like the lone ranger in a covid crockpot .
People just don't care.
Quite disappointed in my fellow concert attendees.

Sounds like the Duke students at the football game. And bunch of people around us.

[budwom]

Today's winning health care savant is Nicki Minaj who told her 22M followers that the vaccine makes men impotent and swells up their testicles. Joe Biden offered to call her on the phone and explain her ineptitude, then she said she'd accepted his invitation to the White House which, of course, he never offered. So yes, we are in good hands overall.

[Lord Ash]

Well, we are five days into the school year and my homeroom just picked up our first case. Girl who has it is feeling good, all things considered. Thankfully we said no snack this year, so there haven't been masks off and we won't need to quarantine anyone. Fingers crossed the kids around her don't get it.

[cspan37421]

Today's winning health care savant is Nicki Minaj who told her 22M followers that the vaccine makes men impotent and swells up their testicles. Joe Biden offered to call her on the phone and explain her ineptitude, then she said she'd accepted his invitation to the White House which, of course, he never offered. So yes, we are in good hands overall.

Maybe her best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who said her boyfriend had this happen to him after he got the vaccine (at 31 Flavors last night). I guess it's pretty serious.