The Phracas at the Phog

[JasonEvans]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

The school did not reveal a specific length of De Sousa's suspension or additional punishment for any other player, citing its joint review with the Big 12 Conference.

[Indoor66]

for the same reason assault and battery are different crimes. You can't assume the battery would have happened just because the assault did...which is minority report pre-crime levels of fallacious reasoning.

I detailed above why I think even picking it up is extremely serious, and one could reasonably assign the same seriousness to both.

We are not talking of charging him with a crime of assault with a deadly weapon. We are discussing elements to be considered in assessing consequences for participation in the fight and the nature and extent of participation and actions. To me, grabbing and raising the chair in an aggressive and threatening manner is very serious. The fact that third party intervention prevented a Battery does not serve to in any way exonerate the young man.

[UrinalCake]

If you look closely, you’ll be able to identify quite a few of Kansas’s starters.

Link

Pretty much their entire team was over there.

I’m guessing you didn’t actually view the link I posted...

[CameronBornAndBred]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

They had to do something of course, but hopefully the NCAA/Big12 decides that permanent is more warranted. If he hadn't picked up the chair, I wouldn't be so supportive of that and would say a few games is fine.

[CDu]

I’m guessing you didn’t actually view the link I posted...

Nope, I sure didn't.

[Phredd3]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

That's not much of an action. As I'm sure we all recall, Grayson was "suspended indefinitely" for one game. Not that I'm equating Grayson's actions to the brawl, I'm simply saying that "indefinite" means exactly what we think it means. When they announce what the actual suspension is, then I'll be satisfied (or not) they've done something worth doing.

Right now, they are simply punting.

[SCMatt33]

They had to do something of course, but hopefully the NCAA/Big12 decides that permanent is more warranted. If he hadn't picked up the chair, I wouldn't be so supportive of that and would say a few games is fine.

Just for the record, the NCAA is highly unlikely to be involved in this decision. The NCAA does have rules (located in the basketball rules) defining fighting and they prescribe a penalty of 1 game for a first offense and rest of season for a second offense within the same year. It also gives the conferences the option to issue more severe penalties. This is why Bill Self’s statement specifically mentioned KU/Big 12 review and not NCAA review.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That's not much of an action. As I'm sure we all recall, Grayson was "suspended indefinitely" for one game. Not that I'm equating Grayson's actions to the brawl, I'm simply saying that "indefinite" means exactly what we think it means. When they announce what the actual suspension is, then I'll be satisfied (or not) they've done something worth doing.

Right now, they are simply punting.

Grayson was suspended for only one game...but it was a period of the season with the big break...he was suspended for 8 days. In many 8 day periods, that would be 3 games. He still had the shame of missing practices and being off to the side for the entire 8 days. I'm not sure that's relevant here, just thought I'd bring in some perspective to the Grayson "one game."

[DukieInKansas]

Eh, I think what the poster was saying was that he appeared to have sort of given up the idea of actually using the stool by then. It didn't exactly take much effort to remove the stool from De Sousa's hands. He let it go pretty easy, especially when you consider how big and strong he is.

Now, I don't think that's exonerating. He's going to get a big punishment for sure. But I do think it mitigates to some degree. We'll see.

That may have been because there were no KSU players nearby at that particular time. He dropped the stool and headed toward the KSU player on the ground. Bill Self eventually grabbed him and held him against the wall.

[Edouble]

I remember JWill against Maryland, running out the clock and making fake passing motions to taunt the twerps.

That was against Troy Bell of (pre-ACC) Boston College at Cameron. Bell shoved Jason into the scorer's table.

I seem to recall Dahntay Jones doing pushups over a guy after dunking on him.

Sort of "over". Dahntay had one foot on UVA's Nick VanderLaan, mostly because of they both landed after the posterizing dunk. I think the point was more the pushups than doing pushups over the guy, IMHO.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That was against Troy Bell of (pre-ACC) Boston College at Cameron. Bell shoved Jason into the scorer's table.



Sort of "over". Dahntay had one foot on UVA's Nick VanderLaan, mostly because of they both landed after the posterizing dunk. I think the point was more the pushups than doing pushups over the guy, IMHO.

At the end of the day, these are all (mostly) teenagers we are talking about here. Good to remember that and keep in perspective.

[kako]

If Duke ever is involved in something like what happened last night, then I hope Duke would suspend anyone who threw a punch. Anyone going farther than that, like DeSousa or the other guy stomping on Love, would be expelled. For those that came off the bench, they should be suspended for at least a game. If they left the bench and threw punches, then more games or even full suspensions (I'd advocate that for Love). If that means Duke forfeits the next game, I'd be fine with that. Take the high road, make a stand, do the right thing. I don't have to be proud of the players, I need to be proud of my alma mater.

A. I don't think KU or KSU will do this (yeah, I saw De Sousa got suspended indefinitely, but that doesn't mean he's gone yet). Or even consider it.
B. I don't think Duke under K would ever let this happen en masse like it did last night.

Lastly, I suspect someone in the stands will be suing somebody. This is America, after all.

9F

PS - for the record, the steal was bush-league but legal. The block was clean, the taunting was a technical. Everything after that should result in suspensions/expulsions.

[KandG]

I don't think the Pacers brawl is at all relevant here. Mainly because the brawl wasn't between two teams - it was a case of players actively attacking fans. This fight did go into the area of the paying customers, but was still ultimately a fight between players. That's a BIG difference.

I agree with CDu on this one -- Malice at the Palace was a genuine outlier of a brawl and didn't feel anything like what happened at Kansas. The brawl that came to mind when I watched the highlights last night was the one during the Knicks-Bulls playoff series over 25 years ago which involved Derek Harper and Jojo English, but ended up spilling into the stands right in front of then NBA commissioner David Stern and resulted in the benches emptying.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/14/s...ter-brawl.html

This brawl so angered Stern and Rod Thorn that it resulted in the creation of a rule mandating suspensions for leaving the bench during a fight (rather than just fines). Knicks and Suns fans still rue the extreme application of the "leaving the bench" rule as it arguably cost them playoff series in subsequent seasons.

The actual suspensions and fines for Knicks and Bulls players involved back then were relatively mild because it was the playoffs and the league was considerably more physical then (though the cost of missing two playoff games is pretty dramatic at any time). I suspect we'll see longer suspensions for the primary participants in this one.

[lotusland]

I had a few knucklehead friends in HS and college who’d start scrapping with strangers at the first unkind word or the drop of a hat. To me these guys look like they’re reluctantly standing up for themselves and their buddies but not actually trying to hurt anyone. A lot of air punches were thrown. Teenage boys are full of testosterone and subsequently they make a lot of bad decisions for which they have to suffer consequences. But let’s not act like these guys are a bunch of predators. That would have been any Friday night at the Pizza Hut in my HS town.

[budwom]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

Typical Bill Self, the school suspends the kid "indefinitely" which means virtually nothing. Sounds good, means little...Self will wait for the storm to pass, try to sneak him back on the team.

[CDu]

I agree with CDu on this one -- Malice at the Palace was a genuine outlier of a brawl and didn't feel anything like what happened at Kansas. The brawl that came to mind when I watched the highlights last night was the one during the Knicks-Bulls playoff series over 25 years ago which involved Derek Harper and Jojo English, but ended up spilling into the stands right in front of then NBA commissioner David Stern and resulted in the benches emptying.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/14/s...ter-brawl.html

This brawl so angered Stern and Rod Thorn that it resulted in the creation of a rule mandating suspensions for leaving the bench during a fight (rather than just fines). Knicks and Suns fans still rue the extreme application of the "leaving the bench" rule as it arguably cost them playoff series in subsequent seasons.

The actual suspensions and fines for Knicks and Bulls players involved back then were relatively mild because it was the playoffs and the league was considerably more physical then (though the cost of missing two playoff games is pretty dramatic at any time). I suspect we'll see longer suspensions for the primary participants in this one.

Yeah, I think the Cincy/Xavier fight from 2011 is much more applicable. In that one, a couple of guys got 6 game suspensions, a couple got 4, and some got one.

I think we'll see something like:

De Sousa gets 10+ (it comes down to how much they emphasize the raising of the table in a threatening manner) for throwing punches and waiving around a table;
Love (the guy in street clothes for KSU, out with an injury) probably gets 6 for leaving the bench and throwing punches;
McCormack probably gets 2-3 for throwing punches;
Others maybe get 1 for leaving the bench.

I didn't see anyone else throwing punches, but if there were others throwing punches that should escalate their suspensions.

[cspan37421]

Teenage boys are full of testosterone and subsequently they make a lot of bad decisions

According to Robert Sapolsky's The Trouble with Testosterone, that view of cause and effect is, contrary to popular belief, backwards.

[MartyClark]

According to Robert Sapolsky's The Trouble with Testosterone, that view of cause and effect is, contrary to popular belief, backwards.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Can you explain? Thanks

[throatybeard]

I'd say good job whoever titled the thread.

[weezie]

... I suspect someone in the stands will be suing somebody. This is America, after all...

I hope they do. Especially the lady with the leg cast who was under one of the player pile-ons. Or the person in the wheelchair. I'd even sue on behalf of the owner of the poor assistance dog who completely freaked out.