The Phracas at the Phog

[BD80]

The KSU player who stole the ball and precipitated the end of game festivities, was he a regular or a bench warmer?

In my mind, if I'm a kid who never sees the floor, and I get a chance to get a steal and a bucket in one of the most revered venues in the sport, I'm going to take it!

It would also explain the reactions of the KSU managers, to protect "one of their own."

[chris13]

Why on earth did the refs bring the players back onto the court to shoot the technicals and inbounds the ball? There was one second left! Had they legitimately lost their minds?
.

College ref gonna college ref

[OldPhiKap]

The K-State player that stole the ball was perhaps unsportsmanlike but did nothing prohibited by the rules. Bad form, that's all.

The retaliatory hard foul and hover was a technical foul but you can see how it happens. Hockey has enforcers, basketball sometimes has enforcers.

The K-State players who initially left the bench to run over and get in De Sousa's face should be suspended three games. That started the escalation beyond the refs having things under control.

All players who threw a punch should be suspended six games.

De Sousa picking up a chair plus fighting should be gone for the year.

UNC should go to Hell and get the death penalty.

[Tooold]

I assume y'all mean Bruce Weber. Because Bruce Pearl coaches Auburn, who plays South Carolina tonight many hundreds of miles from Allen Fieldhouse.

Ha ha! Yes...I didn’t think Pearl seemed right, but I thought I must be wrong 😬
Glad someone was paying attention.

[lotusland]

Stealing a ball is part of the game. Standing over someone has no place in the game. He was asking for it.

Correct it’s a technical foul. Happens all the time with no melee. Emotions are also a part of the game. It was a minor technical foul meaning not flagrant or violent. I would argue that on the playground you could expect to be taunted after getting packed on punk move like that. I would probably tell the dude to get that weak sh@! outta here myself. don’t think “standing over” someone is generally considered a crime so let’s not exaggerate it.

[JasonEvans]

The KSU player who stole the ball and precipitated the end of game festivities, was he a regular or a bench warmer?

In my mind, if I'm a kid who never sees the floor, and I get a chance to get a steal and a bucket in one of the most revered venues in the sport, I'm going to take it!

It would also explain the reactions of the KSU managers, to protect "one of their own."

He's a regular, their 4th leading scorer who averages better than 23 minutes per game. He only had 6 points in the game so I guess he really, really wanted 2 more.

-Jason "and, to be clear, I don't have a major problem with anything anyone did until the punches start flying" Evans

[Tooold]

But why, in his presser, does Bruce WEBER say “it was probably my fault”? Really? Is this a version of Roy’s standard comment “I have to coach my team better...they didn’t do what I taught them in practice”...

[SCMatt33]

I think people are way overestimating the penalties here. I agree with the sentiment that everything through the blocked shot is fine. You might consider stealing the ball “cheap” or a “punk” move, and I’d agree. Going back to block that shot is probably petty, but ultimately, there’s nothing more to those than that. If that was it, we’d criticize the guy who stole the ball for it and maybe people would think De Sousa should just “be the bigger man” and not go back to block the shot. If it ends there, there’s no story outside of Kansas and it maybe gets put into some hype videos for the next game.

The first punishable thing is De Sousa standing over the guy. This wasn’t just him landing on top of him and staring him down. He walks three steps after the play to go stand over him. This is a classic class A technical foul for taunting. It’s not more than that, however. If it ends there or if a guy steps in and pulls him off or there’s a shove or two, then you’d have some technical fouls handed out, but there’s no repercussions beyond that game, no matter how disrespectful and classless that move is. You don’t get suspended for taunting.

When the punches start flying is where the real punishments come in. The only modern day comp I can think of for this is the Xavier-Cincinnati brawl in 2011. In that instance, the players who were heavily involved in that fight got 4-6 games and players with minor involvement got 1 game. I’d expect to see similar level of punishments here, with a guy like McCormack at the high end of the range given his actions that appear to stomp on guys who have gone down.

Then there’s the chair. I think De Sousa should be pretty thankful that others grabbed at the chair and he lets it go before he attempts to crack someone’s head open with it. Had he actually attacked someone with it, you enter Marty McSorley territory and maybe someone could even press criminal charges. Since he didn’t, I think a lot of the calls for rest of season or kicking him off the team are a bit extreme, especially for a punishment handed down by the conference or NCAA. If Bill Self wants to go above and beyond and do either of those, that’s commendable, but I can’t see the Big 12 going that far for “fight plus picked up a chair”. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get any extra punishment, and I’d hazard a guess that he gets 8-11 games, with that upper end being because the rematch is 11 games from now and I could envision a scenario where they don’t want De Sousa in the building for that.

[rsvman]

I said it earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it here.

There was no actual physical fighting, no punching, no melee, until the player wearing #11 erupted off the Kansas State bench and started throwing haymakers.

[jv001]

Poor Grayson Allen, he's not even around and get's dragged it to this and gets a technical. Sort of like Daniel Ewing.
As for the Phracas at the Phog, I think DeSousa and #33 need to go to anger management classes. One guy so angry he picks up a chair and is going to smash someone with it and the other stomping people and it wasn't a Christian Laettner stomp either. It reminds me of the Minnesota vs. Ohio State brawl years ago where 3 players jump on one opposing player. One of the 3 idiots from Minnesota was former Yankee outfielder, Dave Winfield. I hope KSUs #11, KUs #22 and #33 are suspended for the remainder of the season but I don't think it will happen because the powers that be put $$$$$ and sports over everything else. What kind of lesson was taught to young people last night.

GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Poor Grayson Allen, he's not even around and get's dragged it to this and gets a technical. Sort of like Daniel Ewing.
As for the Phracas at the Phog, I think DeSousa and #33 need to go to anger management classes. One guy so angry he picks up a chair and is going to smash someone with it and the other stomping people and it wasn't a Christian Laettner stomp either. It reminds me of the Minnesota vs. Ohio State brawl years ago where 3 players jump on one opposing player. One of the 3 idiots from Minnesota was former Yankee outfielder, Dave Winfield. I hope KSUs #11, KUs #22 and #33 are suspended for the remainder of the season but I don't think it will happen because the powers that be put $$$$$ and sports over everything else. What kind of lesson was taught to young people last night.

GoDuke!

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

[jv001]

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

Good point. GoDuke!

[killerleft]

I still disagree. There's no "mercy rule" in basketball. I understand what you are saying about calling off the dogs, but if the other team wants to keep fighting, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Let's say there were 30 seconds left when KSU steals the ball and runs down the court. Okay, fine, you're still playing basketball. Then, Kansas gets the ball back, they go hard to score more points.

That's all fine. There's time on the clock, you don't get to tell me to stop playing basketball just because you've decided the game is over.

Yep. Time on the clock? Play on, unless both teams stop. In some circumstances, I have felt that it is condescending NOT to play on.

[ChillinDuke]

He's a regular, their 4th leading scorer who averages better than 23 minutes per game. He only had 6 points in the game so I guess he really, really wanted 2 more.

-Jason "and, to be clear, I don't have a major problem with anything anyone did until the punches start flying" Evans

I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was waaay over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

[wsb3]

Poor Grayson Allen, he's not even around and get's dragged it to this and gets a technical. Sort of like Daniel Ewing.
As for the Phracas at the Phog, I think DeSousa and #33 need to go to anger management classes. One guy so angry he picks up a chair and is going to smash someone with it and the other stomping people and it wasn't a Christian Laettner stomp either. It reminds me of the Minnesota vs. Ohio State brawl years ago where 3 players jump on one opposing player. One of the 3 idiots from Minnesota was former Yankee outfielder, Dave Winfield. I hope KSUs #11, KUs #22 and #33 are suspended for the remainder of the season but I don't think it will happen because the powers that be put $$$$$ and sports over everything else. What kind of lesson was taught to young people last night.

GoDuke!

As a teenager, I remember this brawl. But I didn't remember Winfield being part of it. Pretty good article here.

http://www.startribune.com/hoops-bra...ory/411419775/

[killerleft]

Correct it’s a technical foul. Happens all the time with no melee. Emotions are also a part of the game. It was a minor technical foul meaning not flagrant or violent. I would argue that on the playground you could expect to be taunted after getting packed on punk move like that. I would probably tell the dude to get that weak sh@! outta here myself. don’t think “standing over” someone is generally considered a crime so let’s not exaggerate it.

Taking a step to straddle a player and taunt him? That's unsportsmanlike, and in this instance it was shown why there is no place for it in basketball. I remember leaving the playgrounds when such behavior was exhibited. As seen last night, it only takes one little spark to set off the testosterone.

[lotusland]

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

Well Kyle Singler did slap the ball out of a Clemson players hands who was dribbling out the clock following a humiliating loss at Clemson. I kinda liked it. Definitely a punk move but I thought it sent a message to his teammates that he was pissed about how they played. But if a melee had interrupted people would have called for him to be suspended indefinitely, drawn and quartered.

[kshepinthehouse]

I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was way over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

Exactly. Furthermore, De Sousa didn’t land in a position to stand over him. He walked a couple of steps in order to accomplish this goal.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was waaay over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

Totally in-line with this. Everything until De Sousa's standing over the dude is legitimate basketball. Are the steal and block petty? Sure. But that happens a lot in basketball.

Btw, something that no one likes to bring up in the media is Bill Self's reputation for players who love to fight/out of control. Remember the Morris brothers fighting with the football team? Or Josh Jackson's run in with the law? I get it, these kids rule campus.

Duke has had a few "interesting" apples, but never a reputation for fighting or aggression (and fortunately Grayson's antics reflected Grayson and not Duke). UNC doesn't have this reputation. UK doesn't either. Of the blue bloods, it really does seem to be Kansas.

[CDu]

Haven't seen anything on it, but Kansas and KSU got into a bit of a tizzie at the end of the game

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28534122

I think a couple things

1) de sousa is done for the year. you don't get to jack punches and go into a fight with a chair. in the crowd. ahhhh see-ya
2) I don't care that it was a steal as time was running out. One of those things is mildly unsportsmanlike. One is criminal.
3) McCormick should get some time off for the stomping
4) The benches being ejected is a bit of a strange call, as the clock read 0.0 at the time. Now, those involved with the fracas, sure, but simply leaving the bench during play seems like a cop out call. At that point, you just declare the game over for safety reasons.
5) the article claims that this meant the 5 people who were in the game each had to come out for the technical free throws. That seems impossible given that de-sousa undoubtedly gets an automatic exit for the punches...and I can't imagine they allowed him back on the court. did anyone see the ending?
6) Maybe people can finally get some perspective about Grayson Allen.


Either way, embarrassing. If it were me, Mccormick and de sousa would be done for the year and both teams would be post-season ineligible. But I also have zero tolerance for that kind of horse manure in sports.

My thoughts:

1) De Sousa is probably getting the lengthiest suspension. He is one of the ones throwing punches, and he's holding the chair. Whether or not his suspension is season-ending, I don't know. But his will bethe longest.
2) To be fair, while I think De Sousa certainly escalated things by taunting, I think it's probably the KSU player in street clothes that shares as much of the blame for the fight. He and De Sousa are the two main guys I see throwing punches. The rest appears to be shoving.
3) I don't think McCormack was actually stomping. It looks like he is climbing through people to get to the KSU player in street clothes that was on the ground. McCormack stands over and rakes at or throws a punch at the KSU guy, but I don't think McCormack stomped on him. But it's hard to see for sure with the video.
4) Yeah, weird decision by the refs.
5) It would be five eligible players. I am guessing that De Sousa was not allowed back on the floor.
6) Apples and oranges.

Other thoughts:
a) kudos to the assistants for getting in there. Those were some big dudes fighting. But maybe don't try to walk on chairs to get there, or you'll fall on your face like that one assistant did
b) I was actually surprised how quickly it dissipated given the discussion I'd heard going around. There was lots of shoving and grabbing, but relatively few punches, and by relatively few guys.
c) looks like De Sousa throws the first punch after getting shoved by a KSU player (#11?). Then the KSU guy in street cloths jumps in and throws some punches. But aside from that and a possible punch by McCormack on the street clothes guy, that was about it.
d) If I was doling out punishments, De Sousa would get the worst, then the guy in street clothes (probably have to have his suspension wait to apply until he's eligible), then McCormack. Then whatever is mandated for guys who came off the bench (one game)? Probably 2-3 games for McCormack for punching. Maybe something like 5-6 games for the KSU street-clothes guy. Maybe 10 or so for De Sousa. De Sousa is the hardest one to gauge, because of the chair thing. He didn't actually use it on anyone, so it is a question of how much you want to punish the implication of willingness to use the chair.

A really unfortunate scene. Lots of places where everything could have been avoided. But still, definitely could have been worse, especially given the portrayal of it.