The Phracas at the Phog

[JasonEvans]

I am sure folks noted that ESPN was all over this story during the halftime of Duke clobbering Miami. Phonso Ellis and Seth Greenberg both opined that De Sousa should be done for the year and they seemed to think McCormick should as well. Dick Vitale said De Sousa should never put on a college uniform again for any team.

I'm not sure I am ready to go quite that far. De Sousa picking up the chair was really bad so I guess I could go season-long suspension for him but I think McCormick should be able to come back in 10 games or so. This was a bad fight but it was a heat of the moment thing. I'm not saying it should be forgiven, but I think we can be a bit more lenient in our punishment here versus someone who commits a premeditated criminal act.

I would also suspend the KSt player who stole the ball for 8 games as punishment for not understanding the rules of the sport. Guys who play hard to the whistle in the final seconds of a game that is a blowout are asking for trouble.

I assumed the guy in the white pants and black shirt throwing punches is an innjured player coming off the KSU bench and the guy in the suit is an assistant coach trying to get him out of the fracas.

Yeah, that was an injured KSt player and I am guessing he is is gonna get a significant suspension too, maybe 3 games. That assistant coach deserves a medal. That was like throwing yourself on a hand grenade.

-Jason "because it was a blow out, most of the starters for both team were on the benches... which means we could see multiple starters suspended for leaving the bench and miss this weekend's games" Evans

[CDu]

https://streamable.com/u9tph

Here's another angle. who is the guy in the suit coming in for a flying body slam? Missed that on the ESPN shot.

I assumed the guy in the white pants and black shirt throwing punches is an innjured player coming off the KSU bench and the guy in the suit is an assistant coach trying to get him out of the fracas.

Yeah the guy in a suit appears to be falling after walking over a chair rather than trying to make a flying body slam.

The guy in the black shirt and whitish pants is almost certainly a not-currently-active KSU player.

[BigDuke6]

I am sure folks noted that ESPN was all over this story during the halftime of Duke clobbering Miami. Phonso Ellis and Seth Greenberg both opined that De Sousa should be done for the year and they seemed to think McCormick should as well. Dick Vitale said De Sousa should never put on a college uniform again for any team.

I'm not sure I am ready to go quite that far. De Sousa picking up the chair was really bad so I guess I could go season-long suspension for him but I think McCormick should be able to come back in 10 games or so. This was a bad fight but it was a heat of the moment thing. I'm not saying it should be forgiven, but I think we can be a bit more lenient in our punishment here versus someone who commits a premeditated criminal act.

I would also suspend the KSt player who stole the ball for 8 games as punishment for not understanding the rules of the sport. Guys who play hard to the whistle in the final seconds of a game that is a blowout are asking for trouble.



Yeah, that was an injured KSt player and I am guessing he is is gonna get a significant suspension too, maybe 3 games. That assistant coach deserves a medal. That was like throwing yourself on a hand grenade.

-Jason "because it was a blow out, most of the starters for both team were on the benches... which means we could see multiple starters suspended for leaving the bench and miss this weekend's games" Evans

Suspend a kid 8 games for making a basketball play in a basketball game? I don’t know what he did after the fight started but an 8 game suspension for a kid that steals the ball during play doesn’t sound right.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I am sure folks noted that ESPN was all over this story during the halftime of Duke clobbering Miami. Phonso Ellis and Seth Greenberg both opined that De Sousa should be done for the year and they seemed to think McCormick should as well. Dick Vitale said De Sousa should never put on a college uniform again for any team.

I'm not sure I am ready to go quite that far. De Sousa picking up the chair was really bad so I guess I could go season-long suspension for him but I think McCormick should be able to come back in 10 games or so. This was a bad fight but it was a heat of the moment thing. I'm not saying it should be forgiven, but I think we can be a bit more lenient in our punishment here versus someone who commits a premeditated criminal act.

I would also suspend the KSt player who stole the ball for 8 games as punishment for not understanding the rules of the sport. Guys who play hard to the whistle in the final seconds of a game that is a blowout are asking for trouble.

some quick points vis a vis the comments in bold
A: yes, that was almost the entire halftime conversation.
B: I don't know where I come down on appropriate length of punishment, but I don't see any analogy or relevance to premeditated events...which don't happen in a game. Everything is heat of the moment. That's a given, and therefore not much of a mitigating factor IMO.
C: Sorry Jason, total disagreement here, on the punishment aspect. It was not wise for the K State player to steal that ball. That is not a "rule" of the sport, but an unwritten rule. And yes, it was foolish...but not punishment worthy. What was totally uncalled for was a team winning by 30 being in a testy mood.

[JasonEvans]

C: Sorry Jason, total disagreement here, on the punishment aspect. It was not wise for the K State player to steal that ball. That is not a "rule" of the sport, but an unwritten rule. And yes, it was foolish...but not punishment worthy. What was totally uncalled for was a team winning by 30 being in a testy mood.

Sorry, I was kinda kidding about suspending the player who stole the ball. I know he technically did nothing wrong, but I really hate it when guys stat pad like that at the end of the game. Down 20+ with five seconds left, you are just stat padding for yourself. If I was his coach I would have really got on him. And let's be clear, none of this happens if he did not start it. I am not saying what happened was his fault or that his actions justified the responses, but if he does what 99% of the rest of the sport does and let Kansas dribble out the clock, then none of this happens.

B: I don't know where I come down on appropriate length of punishment, but I don't see any analogy or relevance to premeditated events...which don't happen in a game. Everything is heat of the moment. That's a given, and therefore not much of a mitigating factor IMO.

Yup, I was just saying that I think there can be more lenience in heat of the moment punishment than something a bit more planned and thought out. I guess I am making a case to not kick McCormick and De Sousa out of the sport.

-Jason "Kansas is going to need walk-ons to suit up a team this weekend, I suspect" Evans

[lotusland]

A lot of flailing about but I don’t see evidence that any significant punches or stomps actually landed or did any harm. The steal was a punk move and the taunt was a minor unsportsmanlike technical foul. It’s kinda hard to pin down fault for the mob reaction that broke out spontaneously. I know DeSousa is going to be the scapegoat but I think even his reaction has been exaggerated. From his point of view it appears that he looked up and saw a wave of people instantly coming at him. I think he thought better and dropped the stool as much as it was stripped away. You’d like everyone to immediately de-escalate the situation and walk away but putting myself in the players position, I see a lot of restraint. So I guess the NCAA or conference needs to send a message but I wouldn’t suspend anyone for the year.

[PackMan97]

The KST player DID NOTHING WRONG HERE. NOTHING!

My guess is there is a lot of bad blood in this rivalry. None of this happens if Kansas just laughs at that dork and walks off the court. It's also an unwritten rule that at the end of the game, let the guy go don't give him a hard foul "protecting your house". It's a much better insult to not even care the kid stole the ball.

If it were up to me, I would disband the Kansas basketball program and then for good measure suspend a few Carolina players for a dozen games just because I hate them.

[Billy Dat]

The guy in the black shirt and whitish pants is almost certainly a not-currently-active KSU player.

Before I had seen the fight, my sons (younger teens) were telling me, "K State has some TOUGH managers!!!" When I saw the video, I went in with that mindset and then I realized they were non-active players. A bit of levity.

[kshepinthehouse]

Suspend a kid 8 games for making a basketball play in a basketball game? I don’t know what he did after the fight started but an 8 game suspension for a kid that steals the ball during play doesn’t sound right.

Agreed. That’s nuts. He stole the ball. Should he have done it? Probably not. Is it worth fighting over? Absolutely not.

[bundabergdevil]

The KST player DID NOTHING WRONG HERE. NOTHING!

My guess is there is a lot of bad blood in this rivalry. None of this happens if Kansas just laughs at that dork and walks off the court. It's also an unwritten rule that at the end of the game, let the guy go don't give him a hard foul "protecting your house". It's a much better insult to not even care the kid stole the ball.

If it were up to me, I would disband the Kansas basketball program and then for good measure suspend a few Carolina players for a dozen games just because I hate them.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter!

[kshepinthehouse]

A lot of flailing about but I don’t see evidence that any significant punches or stomps actually landed or did any harm. The steal was a punk move and the taunt was a minor unsportsmanlike technical foul. It’s kinda hard to pin down fault for the mob reaction that broke out spontaneously. I know DeSousa is going to be the scapegoat but I think even his reaction has been exaggerated. From his point of view it appears that he looked up and saw a wave of people instantly coming at him. I think he thought better and dropped the stool as much as it was stripped away. You’d like everyone to immediately de-escalate the situation and walk away but putting myself in the players position, I see a lot of restraint. So I guess the NCAA or conference needs to send a message but I wouldn’t suspend anyone for the year.

De Sousa minor technical foul? Sorry, he’s standing over someone he just blocked at the buzzer while winning by 20+. It’s so beyond disrespectful to stand over someone, that’s just asking for it. That’s the punk move. Should the kid have stolen the ball? No. But who cares, you’re up 20.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry, I was kinda kidding about suspending the player who stole the ball. I know he technically did nothing wrong, but I really hate it when guys stat pad like that at the end of the game. Down 20+ with five seconds left, you are just stat padding for yourself. If I was his coach I would have really got on him. And let's be clear, none of this happens if he did not start it. I am not saying what happened was his fault or that his actions justified the responses, but if he does what 99% of the rest of the sport does and let Kansas dribble out the clock, then none of this happens.


-Jason "Kansas is going to need walk-ons to suit up a team this weekend, I suspect" Evans

I could not disagree more. If I'm a coach, I commend a player for fighting til the buzzer. I don't see it as "stat padding," I see it as "not giving anything away."

We see players do this all the time against Duke. We're fortunate that our team is frequently running out the clock, taking the foot off the gas, holding the ball at the top of the arc, watching the clock dribble down to zeros. If a Clemson player knocked the ball away from an inattentive Jack White (using this example because White is mostly impeccable when it comes to focus) and drove down the court for a dunk, would you suggest that warrants a hard foul from a Duke player, followed by a bench-clearing fracas?

KS's player was completely in his right to take the ball and go to the basket. The Jayhawk that followed after with the block was also certainly within his rights. The melee that ensued was completely nuts and unwarranted.

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?

[lotusland]

De Sousa minor technical foul? Sorry, he’s standing over someone he just blocked at the buzzer while winning by 20+. It’s so beyond disrespectful to stand over someone, that’s just asking for it. That’s the punk move. Should the kid have stolen the ball? No. But who cares, you’re up 20.

Sorry I’m unmoved by your argument. A taunt after a punk move doesn’t make my blood boil. Call a technical and move on. You are over reacting imo.

[budwom]

Bill Self will say all the right things, then advocate minimal punishment because that's what he does.
Anything meaningful will have to come from the Big 12...are they willing to let someone besides Kansas win the regular season title? Dubious...

Not sure where the NCAA fits in all this...

Looked to me like the Kansas St. fan got pounded into the boards like a minor league hockey player, wasn't he the focus of attention for awhile by the Jayhawk miscreants?

[kshepinthehouse]

Sorry I’m unmoved by your argument. A taunt after a punk move doesn’t make my blood boil. Call a technical and move on. You are over reacting imo.

Stealing a ball is part of the game. Standing over someone has no place in the game. He was asking for it.

[JasonEvans]

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?

Again, I was kidding about the 8 game suspension.

But, in the scenario you lay out I would be upset with Grayson and I would see it as stat padding and poor sportsmanship. The team who is winning by a wide margin in the final seconds does something honorable by no longer trying to score. I think the opponent's response should not be to sneak up and take the ball from an unsuspecting player who is trying to be honorable. The next time Kansas is pounding KSt (which will happen again given the relative state of the programs) they should keep on pressing and leave their starters in extra long.

-Jason "the player who stole the ball was DaJuan Gordon, KSt's 4th leading scorer... Kansas was playing walk ons and scrubs for the final 3 minutes of the game" Evans

[Tooold]

.

The other thing not being talked about is how Bruce Pearl's comments after the game are mostly dismissive and not giving any culpability to his guys, saying he hopes nothing comes of it. At least Self called it an embarrassment.

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process...totally off-the-mark, but maybe he thought (or hoped) his team was blameless and was trying to play nice. But I was also totally unsatisfied with Self’s comments. To say “this was not toughness...it was immaturity...bad look for the game” was a gross understatement. It was a step up from “boys will be boys”. I would rather he had been angry. He should have said it was totally unacceptable, and that he would review film and decide what action to take. That isn’t what I heard. I hope they both have stronger reactions after watching the film.

I also think the refs were totally wrong to bring the players back. Regardless of NCAA rules that the game must play out, this was clearly a situation in which sound judgment should top a stupid rule. (If necessary, they could have gone to the clock and made a judgment call that the clock had expired when KS player went out of bounds). Sheesh.

[Tripping William]

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process...totally off-the-mark, but maybe he thought (or hoped) his team was blameless and was trying to play nice. But I was also totally unsatisfied with Self’s comments. To say “this was not toughness...it was immaturity...bad look for the game” was a gross understatement. It was a step up from “boys will be boys”. I would rather he had been angry. He should have said it was totally unacceptable, and that he would review film and decide what action to take. That isn’t what I heard. I hope they both have stronger reactions after watching the film.

I also think the refs were totally wrong to bring the players back. Regardless of NCAA rules that the game must play out, this was clearly a situation in which sound judgment should top a stupid rule. (If necessary, they could have gone to the clock and made a judgment call that the clock had expired when KS player went out of bounds). Sheesh.

I assume y'all mean Bruce Weber. Because Bruce Pearl coaches Auburn, who plays South Carolina tonight many hundreds of miles from Allen Fieldhouse.

[PensDevil]

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process...

Let's leave the Auburn coach out of this one. Now Bruce Weber's comments on his K State team on the other hand...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Again, I was kidding about the 8 game suspension.

But, in the scenario you lay out I would be upset with Grayson and I would see it as stat padding and poor sportsmanship. The team who is winning by a wide margin in the final seconds does something honorable by no longer trying to score. I think the opponent's response should not be to sneak up and take the ball from an unsuspecting player who is trying to be honorable. The next time Kansas is pounding KSt (which will happen again given the relative state of the programs) they should keep on pressing and leave their starters in extra long.

-Jason "the player who stole the ball was DaJuan Gordon, KSt's 4th leading scorer... Kansas was playing walk ons and scrubs for the final 3 minutes of the game" Evans

I still disagree. There's no "mercy rule" in basketball. I understand what you are saying about calling off the dogs, but if the other team wants to keep fighting, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Let's say there were 30 seconds left when KSU steals the ball and runs down the court. Okay, fine, you're still playing basketball. Then, Kansas gets the ball back, they go hard to score more points.

That's all fine. There's time on the clock, you don't get to tell me to stop playing basketball just because you've decided the game is over.