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  1. #181
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I'll let the legal eagles hereabouts sort out for you the definition of "assault" vs. "assault and battery."
    Pretty sure that act doesn't meet the criteria for assault.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    That is just the conference acting.

    Self and KU could add more severe discipline Ö


    Golly, I really crack myself up sometimes.
    Now that is funny😀😎😀

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    There was no blow to land, he never swung the stool.
    Never had the opportunity to swing by my viewing. Big difference from simply not swinging. Iím of the mind that he grabbed a weapon and intended to use it. Punishment seems light to me but I really donít have great context for how these things are calculated to begin with.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Pretty sure that act doesn't meet the criteria for assault.
    What you think DíSouza gets if he doesnít pick up that chair? I mean, the block was clean. Sure he stood over the guy, but he didnít touch him. Even when KState players rush him, he pretty much just stood his ground. Dude is a big strong guy, btw, dang. Looked to me like a Kstate guy initiated contact. Yep then DíSouza threw some haymakers, but then kind of fell back and backed away. Pause it there. If he just stands up, even walks towards the ongoing melee, 2 game suspension. But, he grabs and lifts that chair and takes a few steps. Looks like itís going to be really bad, but he drops the chair. I donít think it was grabbed from him, he really just kind of drops it. Truly unfortunate situation. Really bad judgement. Thank goodness for everyone he didnít swing that thing.

  5. #185
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    What kind of value do you place on the sheer terror factor of a 6í9Ē 245 lb. man grabbing a metal chair and raising it above his head in anger seemingly about to use it as a weapon of destruction on defenseless unprotected people wearing nothing put street clothes (or a basketball uniform)?

    You donít think that terrifying act in and of itself deserves more than a suspension from some basketball games? Those folks who were in the direct line of fire from what he was threatening to do could have been psychologically traumatized, not only in the moment, but long-term. He could have easily killed someone with that chair.
    Last I checked, the Big 12 Conference does not represent or adjudicate the legal interests of people who were in the line of fire, much less their psychological well-being. More repercussions are forthcoming in the legal system; many people on the Internet might be surprised to learn that it takes more than 24 hours for any civil claims or even criminal charges to be filed.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JayZee View Post
    What you think DíSouza gets if he doesnít pick up that chair? I mean, the block was clean. Sure he stood over the guy, but he didnít touch him. Even when KState players rush him, he pretty much just stood his ground. Dude is a big strong guy, btw, dang. Looked to me like a Kstate guy initiated contact. Yep then DíSouza threw some haymakers, but then kind of fell back and backed away. Pause it there. If he just stands up, even walks towards the ongoing melee, 2 game suspension. But, he grabs and lifts that chair and takes a few steps. Looks like itís going to be really bad, but he drops the chair. I donít think it was grabbed from him, he really just kind of drops it. Truly unfortunate situation. Really bad judgement. Thank goodness for everyone he didnít swing that thing.
    He threw a few punches too.

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Great Falls Va
    IMG_2599.jpg

    A Kansas friend sent me this updated version of their logo. Rock - Chalk - ChairDrop

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    That is just the conference acting.

    Self and KU could add more severe discipline Ö


    Golly, I really crack myself up sometimes.
    Yea, maybe take away his Adidas money.

    Shoulda been gone for good. And McCormack only gets 2 games? WTH?
    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    i mean, assault is literally a crime based on making people feel afraid...
    This is for the lawyers, but would assault ever be charged after battery had already been committed? It was pretty clear to me that he did not throw the first punch. He definitely retaliated, but also he temporarily backed away. It was then that he picked up the chair and walked (not rushed) back towards the fight. One could argue that he was defending/protecting himself.

    Oh, and btw, his block was clean.

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    Last I checked, the Big 12 Conference does not represent or adjudicate the legal interests of people who were in the line of fire, much less their psychological well-being. More repercussions are forthcoming in the legal system; many people on the Internet might be surprised to learn that it takes more than 24 hours for any civil claims or even criminal charges to be filed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    You think charges are going to be filed?
    Since you asked, I'll post again.

    Generally, players initiate a lot of violent contact in sporting events, but they are rarely subject to criminal prosecution or even civil liability because their acts are contained in a very large protective bubble called assumption of risk. Just as opposing players expect to get hit, camera operators, cheerleaders, and other people on sidelines and courtside expect to dodge balls and players flying out of bounds. Nachos and popcorn and beer get spilled. Clothes get stained. They bought tickets to, essentially, the splash zone.

    On occasion, though, an act is so beyond the assumption of risk as to burst that protective bubble. Think hockey stick attacks and the more extreme foul ball cases. A basketball melee that spills off the court would count as such an event.

    I didn't see anyone get injured, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. In my opinion, civil claims from innocent bystanders seem likely, unless a bunch of quick settlements are made that would keep untouched victims happy. I'm less sure about seeing any civil claims from any players, cheerleaders, and others affiliated with the University who experience no physical injury.

    I think criminal charges are also likely, if the prosecutor can overcome the political perils of antagonizing the University.

  11. #191

    Not to mention

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I understand that Self will soon announce that Grayson Allen is permanently suspended.
    Cleveland State will lose its leading scorer for the rest of the season.

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Baltimore
    Quote Originally Posted by JayZee View Post
    This is for the lawyers, but would assault ever be charged after battery had already been committed? It was pretty clear to me that he did not throw the first punch. He definitely retaliated, but also he temporarily backed away. It was then that he picked up the chair and walked (not rushed) back towards the fight. One could argue that he was defending/protecting himself.

    Oh, and btw, his block was clean.
    It would be a bad argument. If he had to walk back towards the fray, he was by definition not in it, thus the only thing he needed to do to ďdefend himselfĒ was stay right where he was.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Bad decisions cause the production of testosterone?
    According to Sapolsky's 1997 book, more or less, yes. For a wide range of levels (let's say 20% to 200% of normal levels), testosterone doesn't cause aggression; rather, aggression elevates testosterone secretion (p. 151 of paperback). There are a lot of subtleties to how it operates, and he states that its role/function is almost always perceived and portrayed incorrectly.

    He concedes things are usually different at the extremes, though. If you can drive it to zero, say through an operation, aggression plummets. However, if you reintroduce it synthetically, say to only 20% of pre-op levels, 100% of pre-op "normal" aggression returns.

    It's pretty nuanced, and worth a read. I imagine there are some updates in his latest book.

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Here's the George Papas (Monmouth player) end-of-game steal and dunk against KU in a similar dribbling-out-the-clock-in-a-blowout situation from earlier this season. It doesn't change right or wrong about the players' actions in the KU/KSU brawl but adds context.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    ...

    UNC should go to Hell and get the death penalty.
    King Rice coaches Monmouth, the Monmouth-KU game was the catalyst for the KU-KSU square dance. I'd say the death penalty for unc is fully warranted.

  15. #195
    The apology DíSouza posted online was not short.
    It was contrite, took ownership of his mistakes, and read as heartfelt.

    Doesnít excuse the behaviour, and yet he took more ownership than Bill Self did.

  16. #196
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    The apology DíSouza posted online was not short.
    It was contrite, took ownership of his mistakes, and read as heartfelt.

    Doesnít excuse the behaviour, and yet he took more ownership than Bill Self did.
    Not to be too cynical, but I'm sure Kansas provided him with an army of lawyers and PR folks to help him out with that. Which still puts him well ahead of the many people who provide really lame excuses in similar situations.

  17. #197
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    King Rice coaches Monmouth, the Monmouth-KU game was the catalyst for the KU-KSU square dance. I'd say the death penalty for unc is fully warranted.
    King Rice sucks.
    "We're only tourists in this life
    Only tourists but the view is nice"

    -- David Byrne

  18. #198
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    King Rice sucks.
    Wisdom in simplicity...

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    King Rice coaches Monmouth, the Monmouth-KU game was the catalyst for the KU-KSU square dance. I'd say the death penalty for unc is fully warranted.
    By dribbling out the clock, the team with an insurmountable lead is inviting the soon-to-be defeated team to concede the result. The latter does not have to accept, even though further competitive play won't change the W-L result, and if anything, the margin of victory is more likely to increase rather than decrease (if it changes at all). By playing on, the risk of injury also remains. It seems to me that if the losing team wants to play hard to the end, the winning team should humor them, even if just in a game of keep-away.

    On those occasions where the losing team pretends to concede but one of them suddenly has a change of heart and steals the ball, well, that may be a violation of honor in some sense, but it's not worth it to retaliate. Just do a "SMH", because by the situational definition, the W-L outcome is not affected. The margin of victory may change by 2 points, and while that may have some tiny negative effect in the computer rankings for the winning team, part of the blame for it is on the winning team's player who quit paying attention while dribbling out the clock. You can dribble out the clock while still keeping an eye on the supposedly-conceding defense.

    Should the losing team always concede when the soon-to-be victors offer to step off the gas? My initial sense is, yes, of course. But then again - by definition there's SOME greatest comeback in final minute, final 30 seconds, etc. And records aren't done being broken. I'm not sure it can be anything but a judgment call. The point is, the losing team is not obligated to accept the offer, and if they want to keep fighting til the end, the winning team should gracefully accept their determination to keep trying - whatever their motivation for doing it (practice? good habits? sense of duty? pride?)

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    The apology DíSouza posted online was not short.
    It was contrite, took ownership of his mistakes, and read as heartfelt.

    Doesnít excuse the behaviour, and yet he took more ownership than Bill Self did.
    What are the chances that he actually wrote that apology himself?

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