Clemson 79 Duke 72. Put your post-game thoughts here

[roywhite]

Although i agree withe general tone of your post, and most of your points are spot on imho, the bolded part is a bit off. AOC has had an off season so far, in fact his "on nights" have been the outliers. He has the lowest 3FG% of any regular player by almost 9%, and that's supposed to be his strength. He also has the lowest FG% by over 5%. He also has the lowest FT%. In short, AOC is by far our worst offensive option this year. He's rebounding with more desire this year, so that's good, but overall his defense is still sub-par. It's hard to argue that he should get more court time than he's been getting.

Yeah, your post prompted me to look up the season stats for the team.

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/1/...rall_Stats.pdf

There are some positive, encouraging numbers about shooting -- overall team 3-pt is nearing 37% (if I recall the 2018-19 team finished somewhere between 30 and 31%, that with a shorter 3-point line); Tre, Jack White, and J Gold have all bumped up their 3-pt performance. Alex just does not show well -- we've seen him shoot well, but he is definitely struggling.

[Kedsy]

VC was going for fakes and getting out of position so Clemsons bigs were getting a lot of O boards for put backs, etc, etc.

I know this wasn't a major point in your post, but Duke got 77% of available defensive boards in this game. Clemson did not get "a lot of O boards."

[AZLA]

I know this wasn't a major point in your post, but Duke got 77% of available defensive boards in this game. Clemson did not get "a lot of O boards."

Oh, huh, stats show Clemson had 7 OREBs. Feels like a good amount. Duke only had 4. Dang, and Clemson had 35 Total to Duke's 27. Hope that gets turned around against Louisville.

[AZLA]

I'm pretty sure this is not how UNC distributes playing time

LOL. Probably not, considering its the "least-gifted team" Roy has ever coached.

[uh_no]

Oh, huh, stats show Clemson had 7 OREBs. Feels like a good amount. Duke only had 4. Dang, and Clemson had 35 Total to Duke's 27. Hope that gets turned around against Louisville.

aside from the fact that total rebounds are affected by the number of missed shots for each team, the fact that duke completely and utterly failed on the offensive glass doesn't mean that clemson's number was especially high. On the season duke gets about 37% of it's misses. we got 12.5% last night, and clemson 23%, which is slightly below their season average of 24.5


The big failing was our own on the offensive glass.

[AZLA]

Although i agree withe general tone of your post, and most of your points are spot on imho, the bolded part is a bit off. AOC has had an off season so far, in fact his "on nights" have been the outliers. He has the lowest 3FG% of any regular player by almost 9%, and that's supposed to be his strength. He also has the lowest FG% by over 5%. He also has the lowest FT%. In short, AOC is by far our worst offensive option this year. He's rebounding with more desire this year, so that's good, but overall his defense is still sub-par. It's hard to argue that he should get more court time than he's been getting.

Oh great, way to break out statistics ! I'm not good enough of a politician to spin those stats into a positive. But I will say, I liked AOC's aggressiveness in getting into the paint and trying to get physical down low. However, didn't work out as he got blocked or altered when he was flat footed down low. He'd be better served being decisive and looking for his shots around the arc or hitting pull ups. I think he's realizing getting in down low against bigger tougher centers isn't going to work. He needs to recognize that, and even if he's in low, bringing it back out or setting up someone driving the lane or getting it to VC. Doesn't appear he should expect to get a bunch of calls for contact. 2 cents. Cheers!

[Ultrarunner]

Yeah, your post prompted me to look up the season stats for the team.

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/1/...rall_Stats.pdf

There are some positive, encouraging numbers about shooting -- overall team 3-pt is nearing 37% (if I recall the 2018-19 team finished somewhere between 30 and 31%, that with a shorter 3-point line); Tre, Jack White, and J Gold have all bumped up their 3-pt performance. Alex just does not show well -- we've seen him shoot well, but he is definitely struggling.

Roywhite, this isn't really directed at you personally but to address AOC's shooting woes in general.

It isn't a newsflash that Alex is struggling with his shot, but I think, IMNSHO, that throwing him into purgatory at the end of the bench might not be the best answer long term for the team. I'm going to compare him to another shooter on another team that was mired in an awful slump that seemed to be an 0-for-forever. The comparison is solely on 3-pt shooting as the other player brought a huge amount of other skills to the court.

Jon Scheyer, going into the Purdue game in the tournament, was shooting 31% from the field on 29 of 93 shooting. That streak was broken in that game in large part, again IMNSHO, due to Nolan Smith's trust in his teammate. Nolan was out on a break in a position to attack the basket - Jon ran to the 3-pt line and called for the ball. Nolan, despite Jon's huge end-of-season slump, fed him the ball. Jon hit that three (and a lot of the rim, too). The relief was palpable.

When batters are in slumps, they keep swinging. When shooters are in slumps, they need to keep shooting. As long as Coach K sees fit to trust Alex on the court, I'm not going to question it. And I'm hoping, sometime soon, his shot returns and, with it, his confidence.

[kAzE]

Roywhite, this isn't really directed at you personally but to address AOC's shooting woes in general.

It isn't a newsflash that Alex is struggling with his shot, but I think, IMNSHO, that throwing him into purgatory at the end of the bench might not be the best answer long term for the team. I'm going to compare him to another shooter on another team that was mired in an awful slump that seemed to be an 0-for-forever. The comparison is solely on 3-pt shooting as the other player brought a huge amount of other skills to the court.

Jon Scheyer, going into the Purdue game in the tournament, was shooting 31% from the field on 29 of 93 shooting. That streak was broken in that game in large part, again IMNSHO, due to Nolan Smith's trust in his teammate. Nolan was out on a break in a position to attack the basket - Jon ran to the 3-pt line and called for the ball. Nolan, despite Jon's huge end-of-season slump, fed him the ball. Jon hit that three (and a lot of the rim, too). The relief was palpable.

When batters are in slumps, they keep swinging. When shooters are in slumps, they need to keep shooting. As long as Coach K sees fit to trust Alex on the court, I'm not going to question it. And I'm hoping, sometime soon, his shot returns and, with it, his confidence.

I had stop talking about AOC in this thread because I felt bad for criticizing him so much, but I feel obligated to respond to this. Are we really comparing AOC to one of the best Duke players ever? Jon Scheyer is one of the smartest/highest bball IQ players to ever come through this program. He's also 4th all time in 3 pointers made at Duke. This is a bad comparison because Jon Scheyer was never in the same position as AOC, as a 10-15 minute per game role player. Even when he came off the bench in his sophomore year, he played starters minutes, because he able to contribute to the success of the team in multiple ways, even if his shot wasn't falling.

The bottom line is, Coach K could always trust Jon to make good decisions (3.1/1.5 A:TO for his career in 33.0 minutes played per game), and play solid defense, whether he was lightning it up on offense or not. AOC is not that type of player. He's an inconsistent shooter who is consistently bad on defense, and does not have the ball skills to be a play maker. Moreover, his feel for the game is poor. I can't think of two more polar opposite players in terms of basketball IQ than Jon and Alex.

[rsvman]

I think it's a bit harsh to say that Alex is always out of position on defense or that he always plays poor defense or that he is a poor defender. He could be better, for sure. I think people think he's bad because when he does fail, he fails in spectacular and obvious ways, like getting beat back-door for a layup. It calls our attention to his failure.

But sometimes he does little things well, and those are less likely to be noticed. For example, he sometimes does a good job denying someone the ball, and he occasionally intercepts a pass, or knocks a ball free for a turnover.


As far as his shooting is concerned, he was definitely shooting better in the past. I see, in his current shooting, mostly a lack of confidence. It looks like he is "steering" the ball instead of just shooting it; it feels like he is "hoping" a little too much that his shot will go in. It causes the shooting motion to become tentative and introduces little corrective movements that screw up shooting a great deal. And it is kind of a downward spiral; every time a shot goes awry it reinforces in the subconscious mind the idea that shots have be steered better in order to avoid a similar outcome. It's a negative feedback loop. He would make a lot more shots if he quit worrying about whether his shots would go in, but that's a difficult thing to wrap one's mind around, particularly when one is in the throes of a shooting slump.

[Steven43]

I had stop talking about AOC in this thread because I felt bad for criticizing him so much, but I feel obligated to respond to this. Are we really comparing AOC to one of the best Duke players ever? Jon Scheyer is one of the smartest/highest bball IQ players to ever come through this program. He's also 4th all time in 3 pointers made at Duke. This is a bad comparison because Jon Scheyer was never in the same position as AOC, as a 10-15 minute per game role player. Even when he came off the bench in his sophomore year, he played starters minutes, because he able to contribute to the success of the team in multiple ways, even if his shot wasn't falling.

The bottom line is, Coach K could always trust Jon to make good decisions (3.1/1.5 A:TO for his career in 33.0 minutes played per game), and play solid defense, whether he was lightning it up on offense or not. AOC is not that type of player. He's an inconsistent shooter who is consistently bad on defense, and does not have the ball skills to be a play maker. Moreover, his feel for the game is poor. I can't think of two more polar opposite players in terms of basketball IQ than Jon and Alex.

You felt bad about criticizing O’Connell....and then you tripled down on said criticism? Curious decision. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just looking on in shocked wonderment.

[ncexnyc]

It's interesting how players are viewed on this forum. Andre Dawkins had a really nice freshman year and helped us win a title and it seems like that earns him a pass for the rest of his time at Duke.

In contrast, Alex has basically been buried on the bench for two years and now people expect him to play like an All-ACC player. The kid's got talent let's not be so down on him.

[sagegrouse]

Roywhite, this isn't really directed at you personally but to address AOC's shooting woes in general.

It isn't a newsflash that Alex is struggling with his shot, but I think, IMNSHO, that throwing him into purgatory at the end of the bench might not be the best answer long term for the team. I'm going to compare him to another shooter on another team that was mired in an awful slump that seemed to be an 0-for-forever. The comparison is solely on 3-pt shooting as the other player brought a huge amount of other skills to the court.

Jon Scheyer, going into the Purdue game in the tournament, was shooting 31% from the field on 29 of 93 shooting. That streak was broken in that game in large part, again IMNSHO, due to Nolan Smith's trust in his teammate. Nolan was out on a break in a position to attack the basket - Jon ran to the 3-pt line and called for the ball. Nolan, despite Jon's huge end-of-season slump, fed him the ball. Jon hit that three (and a lot of the rim, too). The relief was palpable.

When batters are in slumps, they keep swinging. When shooters are in slumps, they need to keep shooting. As long as Coach K sees fit to trust Alex on the court, I'm not going to question it. And I'm hoping, sometime soon, his shot returns and, with it, his confidence.

Golf's the best -- when you take bad swings, you still have a ball to hit -- lots of practice.

[Ultrarunner]

I had stop talking about AOC in this thread because I felt bad for criticizing him so much, but I feel obligated to respond to this. Are we really comparing AOC to one of the best Duke players ever? Jon Scheyer is one of the smartest/highest bball IQ players to ever come through this program. He's also 4th all time in 3 pointers made at Duke. This is a bad comparison because Jon Scheyer was never in the same position as AOC, as a 10-15 minute per game role player. Even when he came off the bench in his sophomore year, he played starters minutes, because he able to contribute to the success of the team in multiple ways, even if his shot wasn't falling.

The bottom line is, Coach K could always trust Jon to make good decisions (3.1/1.5 A:TO for his career in 33.0 minutes played per game), and play solid defense, whether he was lightning it up on offense or not. AOC is not that type of player. He's an inconsistent shooter who is consistently bad on defense, and does not have the ball skills to be a play maker. Moreover, his feel for the game is poor. I can't think of two more polar opposite players in terms of basketball IQ than Jon and Alex.

No, we are not. We are talking expressly about shooting slumps. I thought I made that pretty clear at the top of my post. And, to an extent, trust. Coach K keeps putting AOC out there. I trust he does it for a reason.

[jv001]

Golf's the best -- when you take bad swings, you still have a ball to hit -- lots of practice.

But in golf you must correct the flaw in your swing. If you practice a bad swing, it will never get better. A swing that is off about 1/4 " at the top will be 50-100 yards off when the ball quits rolling. I think the same theory could be used on shooting form in basketball. Practice the right fundamentals(ala JJ) and the player has a much better chance the ball will go in. I'm not saying Alex has a bad shooting form. On the contrary, his form looks pretty good when he's not hurrying his shot and letting the pressure get to him. I don't believe Alex is having fun playing basketball right now and I think that's from putting too much pressure on himself. Even if his shot's not going in, he can contribute in many other ways. Someone up thread mentioned he get's in the passing lanes and deflects many passes. Well, he also get's back doored because he's taking his eyes off his man trying to get those steals. I hope we see Alex improve in the next few games because Wendell and Joey will be back, Lord willing. Then it's going to be hard to get minutes.

GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Oh, huh, stats show Clemson had 7 OREBs. Feels like a good amount.

To add on to what Uh_no said above, there were 30 available offensive rebounds and Clemson got 7 of them (23.3%). That percentage for the season so far would rank #318 (out of 353 Division I teams). Which isn't "a lot" or "a good amount," no matter how you look at it, despite the fact that it's more than Duke got in this particular game.

[AZLA]

To add on to what Uh_no said above, there were 30 available offensive rebounds and Clemson got 7 of them (23.3%). That percentage for the season so far would rank #318 (out of 353 Division I teams). Which isn't "a lot" or "a good amount," no matter how you look at it, despite the fact that it's more than Duke got in this particular game.

57% more than Duke? With the potential of 6 to 9 extra points. Not to mention Defensive rebounds. thanks for clarifying. Hope Duke doesn't get beat not a lot or not by a good amount on the boards by Louisville not like Clemson. Peace out on this thread.

[brevity]

I never got around to posting the condensed game.



Whoops, that was the Virginia game. You can find the Duke-Clemson game over here.

If Duke had to pick a week to lose, this was a pretty good one. How far will #3 Duke fall when losses also came to the teams ranked #4, #5, #8, and #10, plus a chance for them to bounce back this weekend against #11?

[Kedsy]

57% more than Duke? With the potential of 6 to 9 extra points. Not to mention Defensive rebounds. thanks for clarifying. Hope Duke doesn't get beat not a lot or not by a good amount on the boards by Louisville not like Clemson. Peace out on this thread.

Do you really not understand the difference between Duke getting hardly any offensive rebounds and Clemson getting a lot?

If Duke got zero offensive boards and Clemson got 3, Clemson would have had an infinite percentage more than Duke and still had the “potential of 6 to 9 extra points.” Would you still have said Clemson had a lot of o-boards?

[dukelifer]

I never got around to posting the condensed game.



Whoops, that was the Virginia game. You can find the Duke-Clemson game over here.

If Duke had to pick a week to lose, this was a pretty good one. How far will #3 Duke fall when losses also came to the teams ranked #4, #5, #8, and #10, plus a chance for them to bounce back this weekend against #11?

Why did you post the UVa game at double speed? Dizzying.

[CDu]

57% more than Duke? With the potential of 6 to 9 extra points. Not to mention Defensive rebounds. thanks for clarifying. Hope Duke doesn't get beat not a lot or not by a good amount on the boards by Louisville not like Clemson. Peace out on this thread.

Do you really not understand the difference between Duke getting hardly any offensive rebounds and Clemson getting a lot?

If Duke got zero offensive boards and Clemson got 3, Clemson would have had an infinite percentage more than Duke and still had the “potential of 6 to 9 extra points.” Would you still have said Clemson had a lot of o-boards?

I think it's fair to say that rebounding was a decided win for Clemson. They have a 24.5 OReb% on the season and got 23.3% of offensive rebound opportunities against us. We average a 37.2 OReb% on the season and got 12.5% of offensive rebounds. We are a very good rebounding team, and they are just a mediocre rebounding team overall. And yet they outrebounded us. The fact that they had 8 more rebounds than us and not vice versa is a significant part of why we lost the game. Even breaking even on the glass (which would still be underperforming compared to our season norms) puts us in position to win that game.