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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    We went with some really offensively challenged line-ups tonight. Am I crazy for thinking we would have been better off with JRob on the floor paired with Vernon, instead of Javin? Or at the very least pair JRob with Javin to steal a minute or two for Vernon.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Takes some of the steam out of my enjoyment of Clemson beating unc.


    Usually the losses hurt more than the wins feel good. However ...


    The Clemson win AT unc covers this loss.

    NOTHING....EVER...covers a Duke loss....nothing ...

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by tteettimes View Post
    NOTHING...EVER...covers a Duke loss...nothing ...
    I would trade a ho-hum regular season win for carolina losing a title game any day of the week and twice if they cheated to get there.
    Dear kindly Sergeant Swofford
    You gotta understand
    It's just a class was offered
    every student in the land!
    Our students all are flunkies
    Our teachers all are chumps
    Golly Moses, a total garbage dump!

    Gee, Officer Swofford
    We're down on our knees
    'Cause we don't want to take down such a banner as these
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    What are we to do?
    Gee, Officer Swofford
    Swoff you!

  4. #104
    Mediocre offense combined with really bad defense is a recipe for a road loss to Pomeroy's #77 team.

    OFFENSE

    Possessions: 73.52 (good pace)
    oRtg: 0.97 (1.05 adjusted; poor)
    eFG%: 57.4% (not bad, actually)
    3pt%: 40.0% (good; 8th 40+ 3pt% in last ten games (and 9th in last 12))
    2pt%: 55.9% (pretty good)
    %threes: 37.0% (high; but at this success rate, nobody's complaining)
    FT rate: 37.0% (good for 3rd straight game)
    OR%: 12.5% (pathetic; by far our worst OR performance of the season)
    TO%: 20.4% (not good)
    a/to: 0.87:1 (also not good)
    %assisted: 48.1%
    fast break pts: 7 (9.7% of points; disappointing)

    DEFENSE

    dRtg: 1.08 (adjusted dRtg of 1.06 is putrid; by far our worst dRating of the season, adjusted or otherwise)
    eFG%: 64.2% (horrendous)
    3pt%: 42.1% (bad)
    2pt%: 64.7% (awful)
    %threes: 35.8% (not good; only the 6th time this season that an opponent has taken 30+% of shots from three)
    FT rate: 41.5% (blech)
    DR%: 76.7% (actually very good)
    TO%: 21.8% (pretty good; 6th straight defensive TO% of 20+% (and 7th in eight games))
    a/to: 1.13:1
    %assisted: 60.0%
    stl%: 13.6% (good)
    blk%: 3.8% (5.9% of 2pt shots) (weak)
    fast break pts: 0 (0.0% of points; literally can't get better than this)


    An odd game, statistically. Our defense was dreadful, but we gave up zero (0!) fast break points and did well in two of the four factors (DRs & TOs). I guess no matter what else you do, if your opposing eFG% is 64.2%, your D is going to look shoddy. Our offense was good at the other two of the four factors (eFG and FTR), but was poor at TOs and practically nonexistent at ORs, leading to less than mediocre O. Oh well, time to get ready for the next game.

  5. #105
    I think I'll be echoing a lot of other thoughts here, but my god, so many things had to go wrong to lose that game. Clemson playing out of their minds on offense, Vernon (and others) missing so many free throws, injuries keeping key players out, a few missed calls in big moments, a stupid number of missed layups, Cassius intentionally playing soft defense and giving up easy buckets because Coach K didn't have the horses to sub him out, and just lackluster effort for the first part of the game that put us in a hole. I'm okay with the loss on those merits, because I think it's almost flukey in certain ways.

    Stuff that worries me beyond one loss:

    *I'm a little worried that the shine is coming off of Vernon a little bit based on what Banks and Simms have done to him in the GT and Clemson games. For the first time, he's looked young, and there's a certain kind of big man that can really hurt him. God forbid we face many more players like Simms who can shoot, because Vernon is just at sea having to play real perimeter defense. (He's bad at closing out, too.)

    *This is the first time in a close game where I really felt like Hurt just didn't have a place in the game, couldn't contribute meaningfully, and was a big liability on defense (again with the close-outs). Even in games where he disappears for a while, you can usually count on him to re-emerge and hit some big shots. Today he wasn't good enough for Coach K to even give him a chance in those situations.

    *I've totally given up on O'Connell, and it's not just the obviously bad defense...he simply can't execute on offense, and I don't think he'll have a major role on this team once we get our full roster back.

    *Just in general, our rebounding looked weak again, just against GT. They pushed us out of the lane, which you could also see in our offensive impotence inside of 8 minutes.

    I really hope Moore heals quickly, because he was deeply missed this game. I'm not sure Baker would have helped much, but Moore would have been critical.
    Host of The Cameron Lazies, a brand new podcast plunging us into the soul of the 2019-20 Duke team.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    Duke got killed on the boards though and as such never could get separation. Duke has been rebounding well but not tonight. Maybe just an aberration. We shall see.
    Duke got killed on the offensive boards. We actually killed them on the defensive boards. While it's true they beat us on ORs more than we beat them on DRs, the overall rebounding story was probably pretty close to a wash.

    Also, for those bemoaning our number of missed layups, I think you all may have been misled by the "quality" of the misses (wide open bricks at inopportune moments). The quantity of misses probably wasn't any more than normal. Coming into the game, Duke averaged 54.2% on two-point shots, and tonight we actually shot better from two (55.9%). And while "two point shot" is clearly not synonymous with "layup," I don't remember so many made two-point jumpers tonight, so in this case I think the numbers probably track.

    Quote Originally Posted by ndkjr70 View Post
    Javin DeLaurier is a vital piece to this team as a high-energy, 5-8 minute per game team leader and captain.

    When he is asked to do more than that, Duke is in a bad spot.
    While Javin didn't do very much tonight, for the season I strongly disagree with your assessment. Statistically, Javin is our best offensive rebounder, our 2nd best defensive rebounder, our 2nd best shotblocker (not counting Justin, who has only played 39 garbage time minutes this season), and is pretty strong at steals. Even his assist rate is good, for a guy who plays mostly center. And lately he's been pretty good at the three things he was doing very poorly to begin the season (shooting percentage, turnovers, and fouls), to the point where his season shooting percentages are good (though not as good as earlier in his career due to the poor start) and his turnover% and fouls per 40 are adequate. In the more esoteric advanced stats, coming into this game his oRating (122.4, 3rd best on the team) and win shares per 40 (.230, 4th best on team) are both strong, his PER (20.8) is more than decent, and his box plus minus (12.4) is excellent (best on the team and probably top 20 nationally if he played enough minutes).

    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    Am I crazy for thinking we would have been better off with JRob on the floor paired with Vernon, instead of Javin?
    Yes.

  7. #107
    Three main reasons.
    (1) Missed layups.
    (2) Horrible foul shooting.
    (3) Our strongest attribute to date in my opinion, our passing was way off.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by DUKIE V(A) View Post
    AOC has a ton of talent. He’s athletic and can shoot. Although he has his share of defensive lapses this season, his defense seems better this year than in previous years. Offensively, I would love to see AOC play with a bit more change of pace. It seems like he always attacks 100 miles an hour when sometimes the situation may call for something different like a pull up, a floater, or a pass. I am rooting for him as he will be important to our success - especially without Joey.
    I have been a supporter of AOC and see him as having the size, length, quickness and general athleticism to be good as a wing or shooting guard. I think he tries hard but he seems to lack a feel for the game. After this much time, he should have started to turn his potential into results. That hasn't happened often enough and last night he wasn't good. Wendell is not polished but isa much better defender and his presence would have given the team a lift. I don't know if Joey would have had the defensive presence to help us last night but he would at least been able to give our key players more of a rest.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I hope that Klemnop doesn’t show up to brag again
    He'd get banned for being an obvious troll.

    /JK

    Down two players, poor shooting, worse defense, missed free throws - perfect storm game

    Congrats to Clemson, they earned it under tough circumstances.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    In his press conference , K congratulated Clemson for the win and complimented their play and desire. He said Clemson was more deserving of winning. He did not throw his players under the bus nor did he ask his AD to fire him. Just sayin’...

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    true - but CLemson played 7 guys 10 minutes or more. We played 8. If they were fresher than us then, well, no excuses. 8 is enough. I grant thath maybe Moore (D) or Baker (O) woulda been better players than who we used but as for depth we had less minutes on our big guys than they did - Simms played 36 minutes for Clemson.
    I hear you, but I am not sure our guys are used to playing so many minutes, especially consecutive minutes. Vernon has averaged 24 minutes and last night played 31. Jack averages 19 and played 28. The core 5 that basically played the final 10 minutes of the game (Tre, Goldwire, Cassius, Vern, Jack) all played above their minute totals, some significantly so. And those were hard minutes, most of which involved picking up full court. When winning time came around, everyone showed that fatigue...guards were beating our perimeter guys, we were getting beat for boards, etc.

    Simms did play 36, but he averages 31. They play a tighter rotation and those guys are used to that workload.

    As with most others on the team, I have loved the depth this year, and I recognize that the depth is actually the team's strength. We are greater then the sum of our parts. These last two games, we are seeing those minutes starting to cluster with more guys over 30 mpg. I am guessing that K is seeing separation, he certainly doesn't think AOC belongs out there (and AOC isn't making a great case that he should be). I think this will be a big theme to watch over the next couple of games...will the depth continue?

    Here are K comments from the presser on this subject:
    https://goduke.com/documents/2020/1/...h_K_Quotes.pdf

    On Tre Jones, minutes and depth:
    “You know, he’s done that. Not to bring us back as much as just to lead us. He’s one of the best players in the country. One of the reasons we’ve been good is that we had depth, but we have two kids out right now on the perimeter. I saw it a little bit in the last game and tonight you definitely saw that we are not as good without that depth. That’s basketball, but Tre did a really good job and it’d be nice if we could knock off a few minutes. Up until the last couple games we haven’t had guys in the thirties, but things change and you have to adapt. When you add the number of minutes you can lose some possessions and those are possessions with depth that maybe you win. I’m not sure we would’ve beat them tonight anyways but they played really well. Brad is an outstanding coach and a great guy - they have a heck of a program. To be frank, I am happy for him. When you lose to good guys and a good program, that makes it better.”

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    sluggish and sated from the win over wake....not very motivated


    hopefully the long run home behind the bus from clemson will help motivate them..
    "Either they're going down, or we are! Kirk out!"

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    sluggish and sated from the win over wake...not very motivated


    hopefully the long run home behind the bus from clemson will help motivate them..
    Pretty sure the team takes a charter to Clemson(272 mile drive). Note the aerial photo of Clemson athletic complex on DukeMBB twitter yesterday.
    "Play and practice like you are trying to make the team." --Coach K

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Duke got killed on the offensive boards. We actually killed them on the defensive boards. While it's true they beat us on ORs more than we beat them on DRs, the overall rebounding story was probably pretty close to a wash.

    Also, for those bemoaning our number of missed layups, I think you all may have been misled by the "quality" of the misses (wide open bricks at inopportune moments). The quantity of misses probably wasn't any more than normal. Coming into the game, Duke averaged 54.2% on two-point shots, and tonight we actually shot better from two (55.9%). And while "two point shot" is clearly not synonymous with "layup," I don't remember so many made two-point jumpers tonight, so in this case I think the numbers probably track.



    While Javin didn't do very much tonight, for the season I strongly disagree with your assessment. Statistically, Javin is our best offensive rebounder, our 2nd best defensive rebounder, our 2nd best shotblocker (not counting Justin, who has only played 39 garbage time minutes this season), and is pretty strong at steals. Even his assist rate is good, for a guy who plays mostly center. And lately he's been pretty good at the three things he was doing very poorly to begin the season (shooting percentage, turnovers, and fouls), to the point where his season shooting percentages are good (though not as good as earlier in his career due to the poor start) and his turnover% and fouls per 40 are adequate. In the more esoteric advanced stats, coming into this game his oRating (122.4, 3rd best on the team) and win shares per 40 (.230, 4th best on team) are both strong, his PER (20.8) is more than decent, and his box plus minus (12.4) is excellent (best on the team and probably top 20 nationally if he played enough minutes).



    Yes.
    For a team as small and as bad at offensive rebounding as Clemson, to have them outrebound us is BAD. They basically matched their season average in offensive rebound percentage.

    Conversely, for a team that lives on the offensive glass like us, to have only a 12.5% OReb% is abysmal. I think it is totally fair to say that they killed us on the glass, especially relative to expectation. That the ACC’s worst OReb team doubled up the best OReb team was a real problem.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    ...Great game from Jack, loved seeing him knock down a couple threes, grab tough boards, generate turnovers and capitalize on a couple close in buckets...
    I may be blinded by my love for Aussies but I tend to believe Jack when he silently protests a call. He's not the type to complain (never seen it actually) or make a face so when he looks as angry as he did when his last foul was called, I believe him. He was white hot furious.

    And agree with UCake, he played well and took a banging inside.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by TKG View Post
    In his press conference , K congratulated Clemson for the win and complimented their play and desire. He said Clemson was more deserving of winning. He did not throw his players under the bus nor did he ask his AD to fire him. Just sayin’...
    Did he get teary-eyed and lower his voice and fling himself in the pit of despair?
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    true - but CLemson played 7 guys 10 minutes or more. We played 8. If they were fresher than us then, well, no excuses. 8 is enough. I grant thath maybe Moore (D) or Baker (O) woulda been better players than who we used but as for depth we had less minutes on our big guys than they did - Simms played 36 minutes for Clemson.
    A: it's not about excuses...it's finding reasons it happened.
    B: comparing to Clemson is not applicable...no more than it is applicable to compare to previous Duke teams that were not deep.

    A team must be itself....and Duke's identity this year is as a deep team. We were not that last night....could not be due to injuries, and made worse when AOC and Hurt didn't show up. Again, that's not an excuse. But it is a factor, a reason, and it's very applicable.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Did he get teary-eyed and lower his voice and fling himself in the pit of despair?
    He did not but I sure did..which is common practice when we lose.._

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    I had hoped AOC would step up with this opportunity, but it wasn't to be...backdoored, lazy passes, series of mental blunders...like Shane, I too have, regretfully, given up on his play. Loss wasn't his fault (nice team effort) but he should be playing more cerebrally by now.

  20. #120
    Meh not bothered about the loss.

    Hit our free throws and we probably win.

    klumpson were playing out of their minds. Yet another career day for yet another opposition player. Clearly this was their national title game.

    As a young team on the road and missing our two wings, we did ok up until the end.

    Coach K will make them learn from this and we will improve.

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