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  1. #201
    I think kenpom had a blog post about +/- a few years ago. He had a hypothetical player that was neutral as far as likelihood of his team scoring and the other team, and ran it through his magical simulation algorithms to see how much variance there was. His conclusion was that it's deeply flawed and not telling at all for a single game. For a season long in college, it was a bit useful but also subject to a good deal of randomness. For the NBA season long sample size, it finally started to show something.

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Any Golf Digest readers on this board will have to say if itís normal for GD to publish articles on individual plays from sports that are not golf. I found this Zion article amusing:

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/zio...ot-to-the-moon

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Winston’Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    Any Golf Digest readers on this board will have to say if itís normal for GD to publish articles on individual plays from sports that are not golf. I found this Zion article amusing:

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/zio...ot-to-the-moon
    Nope.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Atlanta
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBlue View Post
    My wife says if I don't lay off the Scotch I'm going to have a Top 5 stroke, but seriously how do you compile such a list? Statistics, body mechanics/kinetics..? Here would be a few of my candidates:

    JJ (of course)
    Andre Dawkins
    Billy McCaffrey
    Johnny Dawkins
    Bob Verga (a guess since I don't have memories of him playing though I was alive at the time)
    I would put The Alaskan Assassin on that list and maybe take Johnny off. I donít think of him as a shooter, but a scorer.

    But thatís just one manís opinion.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by BandAlum83 View Post
    I would put The Alaskan Assassin on that list and maybe take Johnny off. I donít think of him as a shooter, but a scorer.

    But thatís just one manís opinion.
    That's at least two men's opinions...and indeed, Verga has to be on there. I've no ability to comment on Groat.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    That's at least two men's opinions...and indeed, Verga has to be on there. I've no ability to comment on Groat.
    The legends were Verga, Trajan and JJ. Bill McC. shot well after he left Duke -- doesn't count. Bobby Hurley shot over 40 percent -- and it was WHEN he made the shots. Maybe Tate Armstrong, who shot over 50 percent before the three-point era. Andre was not a star.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Tough to get geeked out over Zion given the pall over the sports world this evening.

    Zion playing a bit more and going to have a tough time going 3-3 shooting 70%+. At 4-10 now...

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    FT shooting a bit of an issue. If he doesnít pick it up I could see Hack a Zion becoming a thing.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Dude blew his shoe again. Well, list it anyway.

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Correct side of the Durham/CH border
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    Dude blew his shoe again. Well, list it anyway.
    Yeah, Iím guessing a bunch of Nike execs just blew their dinner.
    ďCoach said no 3s.Ē - Zion on The Block

  11. #211
    While I doubt Nike wants a ďcompeting brandĒ on their shoe, have to wonder if something like Boa laces might be a good addition for Zion.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The legends were Verga, Trajan and JJ. Bill McC. shot well after he left Duke -- doesn't count. Bobby Hurley shot over 40 percent -- and it was WHEN he made the shots. Maybe Tate Armstrong, who shot over 50 percent before the three-point era. Andre was not a star.
    I forgot Tate....the 3 would've been great for him...
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  13. #213
    Good to see Zion on the court to finish the game. Made his free throws late (finally) and got some high-percentage shots in the paint.

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by duke4ever19 View Post
    Good to see Zion on the court to finish the game. Made his free throws late (finally) and got some high-percentage shots in the paint.
    Yep. Pels get their first win of the Zion era, he gets his first double double and finishes the game.

  15. #215
    Zion owned the end of the game. His contributions were numerous and helped seal the win.

  16. Pels are experimenting with Zion at the 5 on both offense and defense, and IMO while this can work in niche scenarios it's not optimal.

    Zion on offense has always been best when in motion. He's like X-Men's Juggernaut, once he gets going he is very tough to stop. And he's a good enough playmaker that even when he can be stopped he will make the right pass.

    The Pelican offense when he's in the game is not motion in poetry, it's like jagged starts and stops. They ask him to catch the ball in the post like a center -- not to playmake like sometimes at Duke but to score like a center. Zion can be successful at times this way but it's relatively low percentage (for him) when matched up against real NBA centers. His skill and athleticism advantage are most potent when he's going, not when he's stationary.

    Part of it is that the team hasn't really adjusted to Zion. They seem passive when he's in the game. The passing is tentative and over-thought as opposed to instinctual. I'm sure this will come in time; we saw at Duke (and in the NBA preseason) that Zion is an amazing passer and receiver but this hasn't translated yet in the regular season.

    His foul shooting needs to be way better -- 3/8 is unacceptable. With the way Zion attacks, he's going to get hacked a lot and he can make a living on the foul line. On most things, Zion has an excuse with his being a rookie and having been injured, but there's no excuse for poor foul shooting.

    Defensively the Pelicans are exposed with Zion and Ingram and no real center; neither are able to effectively defend the pick and roll or variations designed to get opposing guards the layup. The Celtics attacked them relentlessly with success. Zion can play 5 on offense but on defense he's a liability there.

    The ideal typical team composition for Zion is at the 4 playing with mobile teammates who can shoot and a strong defender at the 5. So maybe Ball, Holiday, Ingram, Zion and Favours.

    The other thing I noticed is that Zion doesn't seem to be playing with joy the way he did at Duke. He's not smiling much. Most of the time he looks frustrated with the turnovers and fouls. He looks tentative; like he's over-thinking things vs. playing with instinct. He needs to rediscover that joy and that will translate into more consistent energy and focus on both ends of the court.

    All of the above makes it sound like Zion had a terrible game, but he finished with 21 points (56% shooting), 11 rebounds, 2 assists and 1 steal. That's pretty good. But watching him play I just know he could have done so much better. That's great news for the Pelicans and I hope they won't settle for how they're using Zion right now.
    Last edited by ice-9; 01-26-2020 at 08:16 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    Pels are experimenting with Zion at the 5 on both offense and defense, and IMO while this can work in niche scenarios it's not optimal.

    Zion on offense has always been best when in motion. He's like X-Men's Juggernaut, once he gets going he is very tough to stop. And he's a good enough playmaker that even when he can be stopped he will make the right pass.

    The Pelican offense when he's in the game is not motion in poetry, it's like jagged starts and stops. They ask him to catch the ball in the post like a center -- not to playmake like sometimes at Duke but to score like a center. Zion can be successful at times this way but it's relatively low percentage (for him) when matched up against real NBA centers. His skill and athleticism advantage are most potent when he's going, not when he's stationary.

    Part of it is that the team hasn't really adjusted to Zion. They seem passive when he's in the game. The passing is tentative and over-thought as opposed to instinctual. I'm sure this will come in time; we saw at Duke (and in the NBA preseason) that Zion is an amazing passer and receiver but this hasn't translated yet in the regular season.

    His foul shooting needs to be way better -- 3/8 is unacceptable. With the way Zion attacks, he's going to get hacked a lot and he can make a living on the foul line. On most things, Zion has an excuse with his being a rookie and having been injured, but there's no excuse for poor foul shooting.

    Defensively the Pelicans are exposed with Zion and Ingram and no real center; neither are able to effectively defend the pick and roll or variations designed to get opposing guards the layup. The Celtics attacked them relentlessly with success. Zion can play 5 on offense but on defense he's a liability there.

    The ideal typical team composition for Zion is at the 4 playing with mobile teammates who can shoot and a strong defender at the 5. So maybe Ball, Holiday, Ingram, Zion and Favours.

    The other thing I noticed is that Zion doesn't seem to be playing with joy the way he did at Duke. He's not smiling much. Most of the time he looks frustrated with the turnovers and fouls. He looks tentative; like he's over-thinking things vs. playing with instinct. He needs to rediscover that joy and that will translate into more consistent energy and focus on both ends of the court.

    All of the above makes it sound like Zion had a terrible game, but he finished with 21 points (56% shooting), 11 rebounds, 2 assists and 1 steal. That's pretty good. But watching him play I just know he could have done so much better. That's great news for the Pelicans and I hope they won't settle for how they're using Zion right now.

    I agree with what you point out. Zion had his moments and wound up with 21 pts 11 rebounds. Considering the 28 minutes played, the numbers are good and he is a force at times but is also a rookie with turnovers, difficulty guarding a quck experienced player and he needs to work on his foul shooting. Stilll, this is only his 3rd game after a long layoff and I expect he will progress and they figure out how to utilize him in the optimum way. Love to watch him play.

  18. #218
    His PER would be 2nd in the league behind Greek Freak

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Southbury, CT
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    I agree with what you point out. Zion had his moments and wound up with 21 pts 11 rebounds. Considering the 28 minutes played, the numbers are good and he is a force at times but is also a rookie with turnovers, difficulty guarding a quck experienced player and he needs to work on his foul shooting. Stilll, this is only his 3rd game after a long layoff and I expect he will progress and they figure out how to utilize him in the optimum way. Love to watch him play.
    Agree here and with ice-9 above. Zion was a force inside, especially with his insane second jumps. Overall the game was frustrating to watch with little flow on the Pelicanís offense and so many unforced turnovers.

    I hope Zionís defense improves as he shakes off the rust. The Celtics drove right at him many times and got easy looks at the rim. Maybe that is a problem with the Pelicans lack of rim protection (although Favors had a couple sweet blocks) or help D vs Zionís individual defense.

    Regardless, I still get that anticipatory feeling every time Zion touches the ball. Appointment viewing for sure!

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    ...

    The Pelican offense when he's in the game is not motion in poetry, ...

    Makes me picture Sidney Crosby reciting Robert Frost as he glides down the wing ...

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