Houston baseball cheating

[devildeac]

I might have thought the punishments would be "show cause" for a couple recently retired players/coaches.

[Blue in the Face]

So are all those being implicated in the cheating scandal going to get banned from baseball and the HOF like Pete Rose?? I hope so. Keep it fair, baseball.

They're suspended for a year, they're not on the permanently ineligible list like Rose is. (They are officially one strike away from permanent ineligibility though). And with fewer career hits than Rose got in multiple single seasons, Hinch was probably already a long-shot for the HOF, even in an era of a generous veterans committee.

[cspan37421]

So are all those being implicated in the cheating scandal going to get banned from baseball and the HOF like Pete Rose?? I hope so. Keep it fair, baseball.

It's a good question, but I would suspect no.

Baseball has never a and b treated equally where

a = those trying to win by cheating and
b = those who try to lose/those who sandbag their efforts, thus cheating the fans of a competitive game

At least in the first case there's the chance that both teams are cheating, or pushing the envelope of what is allowable and enforceable. You still could have true winning efforts on both sides. Not so in the second case. And my goodness can you imagine what it would be like to see a game where both sides tried to lose?

Another factor is that sign stealing has never been a capital crime in baseball. Of course, you're not supposed to get caught doing so, else you're likely to get beaned. But if you've got a guy on second base ... well, it's part of the fabric of the game to try to relay a tip to your batting teammate without getting caught. (if there's something in the rulebook about it, OK, but still ... I don't even sense it's taken as seriously as pitchers scuffing, cutting, or adding foreign substances on the ball)

This scandal systematizes that to an extent that is outrageous. First and foremost, it involves people/tech that is OFF THE FIELD OF PLAY. To me that's one of the worst parts of it. And I think that part does contravene a rule, IIRC. The other thing is that you don't need a runner on second to steal signs. You don't have to have a runner anywhere. You can give an advantage to ALL your batters, ALL the time. So this is turbocharged cheating, it's not playing around the edges in special situations.

Now it would be nice if pitchers and catchers who knew about sign stealing - at both extremes - could come up with a Diffie-Hellman encryption scheme that would enable them to communicate securely even in the face of eavesdroppers. But it's not realistic to expect these guys to work on one-way functions and modular math between pitches. If the cat's out of the bag and you can't control the spying technology, well, you've got to give pitchers and catchers a way to wirelessly communicate signals in a non-visual manner. Remember Mark "The Bird" Fidrych? In such a scenario, every pitcher's going to look like they're talking to the ball, when in fact it'll be their BT mic talking to the catcher. And maybe the catcher will then be the one to shake off the proposed pitch, or agree with it. That won't help the hitter.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

So are all those being implicated in the cheating scandal going to get banned from baseball and the HOF like Pete Rose?? I hope so. Keep it fair, baseball.

To this point, shouldn't every player on the team be implicated? They were the beneficiaries of this, and had to have known it was happening - if someone is telling you "next pitch will be a fastball" then you have to know where that knowledge is coming from and that it is somewhat reliable. So their stats are artificially inflated and they are guilty of not blowing the whistle. I'm surprised that a traded player didn't blow the whistle earlier. Honor among thieves, I guess.

[budwom]

So are all those being implicated in the cheating scandal going to get banned from baseball and the HOF like Pete Rose?? I hope so. Keep it fair, baseball.

A lot of serious questions are being asked about all this. Some allegations by other teams that The Commish just wants to get this over with...while the Astros lost a manager and GM, the owner gets off essentially unscathed.*
Commish argues it's too complicated to assess the relative guilt of various players, which sounds like an easy (and quick) way out. Let's all focus on the color and pageantry of spring training!

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ng-punishments

* really hard to imagine no one on the team mentioned what they were doing to the owner...since he presumably attends many games, do you think he might have asked why some bonehead kept banging on a trash can lid?

[sagegrouse]

It's a good question, but I would suspect no.

Baseball has never a and b treated equally where

a = those trying to win by cheating and
b = those who try to lose/those who sandbag their efforts, thus cheating the fans of a competitive game

At least in the first case there's the chance that both teams are cheating, or pushing the envelope of what is allowable and enforceable. You still could have true winning efforts on both sides. Not so in the second case. And my goodness can you imagine what it would be like to see a game where both sides tried to lose?

Another factor is that sign stealing has never been a capital crime in baseball. Of course, you're not supposed to get caught doing so, else you're likely to get beaned. But if you've got a guy on second base ... well, it's part of the fabric of the game to try to relay a tip to your batting teammate without getting caught. (if there's something in the rulebook about it, OK, but still ... I don't even sense it's taken as seriously as pitchers scuffing, cutting, or adding foreign substances on the ball)

This scandal systematizes that to an extent that is outrageous. First and foremost, it involves people/tech that is OFF THE FIELD OF PLAY. To me that's one of the worst parts of it. And I think that part does contravene a rule, IIRC. The other thing is that you don't need a runner on second to steal signs. You don't have to have a runner anywhere. You can give an advantage to ALL your batters, ALL the time. So this is turbocharged cheating, it's not playing around the edges in special situations.

Now it would be nice if pitchers and catchers who knew about sign stealing - at both extremes - could come up with a Diffie-Hellman encryption scheme that would enable them to communicate securely even in the face of eavesdroppers. But it's not realistic to expect these guys to work on one-way functions and modular math between pitches. If the cat's out of the bag and you can't control the spying technology, well, you've got to give pitchers and catchers a way to wirelessly communicate signals in a non-visual manner. Remember Mark "The Bird" Fidrych? In such a scenario, every pitcher's going to look like they're talking to the ball, when in fact it'll be their BT mic talking to the catcher. And maybe the catcher will then be the one to shake off the proposed pitch, or agree with it. That won't help the hitter.

Sign stealing is perfectly legal and a part of the game, if done by a base runner or base coach or someone in the dugout watching signs coming from the other dugout or a base coach (steal, hit-and-run, etc.). Telescopes or video cameras or other artificial means are illegal.

[Blue in the Face]

Without waiting for mlb's discipline, the Red Sox have fired Cora.

https://weei.radio.com/blogs/ryan-ha...ally-part-ways

[MChambers]

It's a good question, but I would suspect no.

Baseball has never a and b treated equally where

a = those trying to win by cheating and
b = those who try to lose/those who sandbag their efforts, thus cheating the fans of a competitive game

At least in the first case there's the chance that both teams are cheating, or pushing the envelope of what is allowable and enforceable. You still could have true winning efforts on both sides. Not so in the second case. And my goodness can you imagine what it would be like to see a game where both sides tried to lose?

Another factor is that sign stealing has never been a capital crime in baseball. Of course, you're not supposed to get caught doing so, else you're likely to get beaned. But if you've got a guy on second base ... well, it's part of the fabric of the game to try to relay a tip to your batting teammate without getting caught. (if there's something in the rulebook about it, OK, but still ... I don't even sense it's taken as seriously as pitchers scuffing, cutting, or adding foreign substances on the ball)

This scandal systematizes that to an extent that is outrageous. First and foremost, it involves people/tech that is OFF THE FIELD OF PLAY. To me that's one of the worst parts of it. And I think that part does contravene a rule, IIRC. The other thing is that you don't need a runner on second to steal signs. You don't have to have a runner anywhere. You can give an advantage to ALL your batters, ALL the time. So this is turbocharged cheating, it's not playing around the edges in special situations.

Now it would be nice if pitchers and catchers who knew about sign stealing - at both extremes - could come up with a Diffie-Hellman encryption scheme that would enable them to communicate securely even in the face of eavesdroppers. But it's not realistic to expect these guys to work on one-way functions and modular math between pitches. If the cat's out of the bag and you can't control the spying technology, well, you've got to give pitchers and catchers a way to wirelessly communicate signals in a non-visual manner. Remember Mark "The Bird" Fidrych? In such a scenario, every pitcher's going to look like they're talking to the ball, when in fact it'll be their BT mic talking to the catcher. And maybe the catcher will then be the one to shake off the proposed pitch, or agree with it. That won't help the hitter.

While the Nats didn’t go as far as encryption, they did implement a very complicated sign system for the series. Each pitcher had their own set of signs: five of them. I don’t know how the catchers remembered them. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...dce_story.html

[cspan37421]

Without waiting for mlb's discipline, the Red Sox have fired Cora.

https://weei.radio.com/blogs/ryan-ha...ally-part-ways

If it's determined that he was the mastermind behind it all, I can see him getting at least double Hinch's suspension, 5 at most. Best guess 3 yrs.

[cspan37421]

While the Nats didn’t go as far as encryption, they did implement a very complicated sign system for the series. Each pitcher had their own set of signs: five of them. I don’t know how the catchers remembered them. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...dce_story.html

How many phone numbers and zip codes do you think you know? It may not be quite as hard as you think.

[If you're of a certain age that used to write letters and call people by entering each digit yourself. And yes, I drive a stick shift]

[snowdenscold]

Now it would be nice if pitchers and catchers who knew about sign stealing - at both extremes - could come up with a Diffie-Hellman encryption scheme that would enable them to communicate securely even in the face of eavesdroppers. But it's not realistic to expect these guys to work on one-way functions and modular math between pitches.

Diffie-Hellman brought up in a baseball thread on a DBR board - I love it!

Of course I prefer my D-H ephemeral and ECC style with curve 25519.

And I suppose since the pitcher can visually see the catcher, we don’t have to deal with all the problems that certificates and PKI introduce, eh?

OK I must stop now...

[bundabergdevil]

How many phone numbers and zip codes do you think you know? It may not be quite as hard as you think.

[If you're of a certain age that used to write letters and call people by entering each digit yourself. And yes, I drive a stick shift]

If you still roll down your windows and manually calculate gas mileage after each fill-up I’d think you might be my dad but you use the internet so you can’t be.

[Blue in the Face]

When the Astros hired him in November 2016, Alex Cora certainly knew he had his work cut out for him.

Alex Cora's twitter: Stealing signs, relaying signs, getting signs...not that easy. 10/17/16

https://twitter.com/ac13alex/status/788167321051430916

[YmoBeThere]

If you still roll down your windows and manually calculate gas mileage after each fill-up I’d think you might be my dad but you use the internet so you can’t be.

3 of my 6 cars requires hand cranks to lower the windows. What do you mean by manually calculate gas mileage? Pen and paper? Don’t rely on vehicle trip calculators, etc.?

Oh wait, I use the internet...

[YmoBeThere]

When the Astros hired him in November 2016, Alex Cora certainly knew he had his work cut out for him.



https://twitter.com/ac13alex/status/788167321051430916

Cora played half his career games in Dodger Blue. It feels like a family betrayal...

[Acymetric]

Firstly, I hate this scandal because it means sports media is constantly talking about baseball. Yuck, save it for after football and basketball season!

Secondly, I keep hearing people in media talking about how it's bad form for a player to have reported this, that he's a bad teammate, etc. I mean, really? That can't possibly be that common of a take, can it? I'm willing to bet these media members aren't opposed to whistleblowers in pretty much any other context or industry (NOT a reference to the recent political whistleblowing stuff, just talking whistleblowing generally as a concept).

[YmoBeThere]

Secondly, I keep hearing people in media talking about how it's bad form for a player to have reported this, that he's a bad teammate, etc. I mean, really? That can't possibly be that common of a take, can it? I'm willing to bet these media members aren't opposed to whistleblowers in pretty much any other context or industry (NOT a reference to the recent political whistleblowing stuff, just talking whistleblowing generally as a concept).

Most of the “media” members I’ve heard making that pitch are ex-players. I think they represent the older philosophies embodied by slogans like snitches get stitches, etc.

[MChambers]

Firstly, I hate this scandal because it means sports media is constantly talking about baseball. Yuck, save it for after football and basketball season!

Secondly, I keep hearing people in media talking about how it's bad form for a player to have reported this, that he's a bad teammate, etc. I mean, really? That can't possibly be that common of a take, can it? I'm willing to bet these media members aren't opposed to whistleblowers in pretty much any other context or industry (NOT a reference to the recent political whistleblowing stuff, just talking whistleblowing generally as a concept).

It's hard to believe, isn't it? What about the players who were harmed by the cheating by the Astros and Red Sox (except for the Yankees, I don't care about them).

[Blue in the Face]

Most of the “media” members I’ve heard making that pitch are ex-players. I think they represent the older philosophies embodied by slogans like snitches get stitches, etc.

Jessica Mendoza is pretty hot about it too.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/j...mains-unclear/

Of course, in addition to being a broadcaster, she works for the Mets, and hey, they got hit with this too:

Carlos Beltran and the Mets have agreed to mutually part ways. he 42-year-old Beltran, who was hired in November, had been in Port St. Lucie preparing for the 2020 season as the Astros sign-stealing scandal investigation was wrapped up by MLB.

https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/carlos-...ager/312444238

I don't relish Mets misfortunes like I did as a youth, but still, firing a manager before he even manages a game for you is kind of everything the Mets are about in recent years.

[MChambers]

She apparently now says Fiers should raises the issue with Hinch and Luhnow.

Yeah, that would have worked. . .