MBB: Duke vs MSU (Tue 12/1 7:30 pm, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[DavidBenAkiva]

EDIT: Mods, I have screwed up again. Please change the date to 12/1.

The Blue Devils continue their season on Tuesday night facing off against a familiar foe in a very unusual circumstance. Michigan State will play in a mostly empty Cameron Indoor Stadium as part of the Champions Classic. The annual event was originally intended to kick off the college basketball season. Instead, the Spartans will fly to RDU while Kansas and Kentucky will play in Indianapolis. Duke has verbally committed to returning to Lansing in the future. Personally, I hope it takes place next season between two teams that should be ranked atop the polls. That's next year. This year, Duke will look to build of an uneven performance against Coppin State.

Looking at MSU, the roster matches up well against Duke. Each team is deep with versatile wings. MSU features a number of talented wings, although none of them jump out as overwhelming talent. The roster has talent with 7 players ranked in the RSCI top 100 in their respective recruiting classes. However, only senior Joshua Langford was a top 20 player and was ranked 20th in his class. Langford appears to be fully healthy after two seasons of tough breaks. He's a bigger guard that can really shoot the ball. He has a career 3P% over 40% and is better than 80% from the FT line. So far on this young season, he is primarily taking 3's but has shown a more diverse game in the past. The other wings are all shooters, including Marquette transfer Joey Hauser. The 6'9" sophomore hit 45% of his threes as a freshman playing for Wojo, although he is 0-6 on the young season. Hauser knows and has played against Jalen Johnson growing up, so that's a matchup to watch.

Other wings include Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Malik Hall. These three all run about 6'6" and 6'7" with Henry being the more polished of the trio. They each have decent jumpers but are not the shooters that Hauser and Langford are. Still, it would be a good idea to not leave them alone in the corner. Henry is more of a slasher than the the others, but they all bring good toughness and team defense to the table. Henry and Hauser, and to a lesser extent Malik Hall, have been primary facilitators so far this year and have created a ton of looks for their teammates. Look for them to have the ball in their hands a lot. They have been a little loose with the ball, though, so it presents an opportunity for Duke to generate turnovers and get out in transition.

The guards for MSU can both shoot the ball very well. Junior 6'0" PG Foster Loyer has taken over the starting position for the Spartans this year. Duke fans may remember Loyer as the guy that fell down and fouled Tre Jones on a breakaway layup. Despite that ignominy, Loyer is quite good and has started the year off with a bang. He has made 6 of his 10 3-point attempts and every other field goal and free throw attempted. Loyer is not someone that gets to the rim or otherwise breaks his man down. You have to watch him on offense because of his shooting, but he's not going to blow past his defender. Sophomore G Rocket Watts is coming off the bench so far this year after starting much of last season and has been productive. He's a combo guard, like DJ Steward, more than a natural point guard but has been a better facilitator than Loyer. He's a dangerous scorer and should be a really good college player for Tom Izzo.

Up front, the Spartans play 6'11" JR Marcu Bingham, an excellent rim protector with a bit of a raw offensive game. Bingham will take the occasional jumper but it is not his primary role. With so many good and capable shooters around him, it's not a wise decision. He is there to protect the rim, get rebounds, and pass out of the post when the defense collapses. He does those things very well. MSU has a pair of backup big men, including 6'8" JR Thomas Kithier and 6'9" FR Mady Sissoko. Kithier is a moderately skilled big that plays good team defense, will score around the rim a little, but mostly sets screens and helps his teammates out. Sissoko won't get much playing time this year but projects as a shot blocker more in the mold of a thicker Bingham.

Overall, this is a team that won't wow you with individual talent but brings a ton of shooting and team defense to the table. MSU has traditionally struggled to generate turnovers, relying on their withering defense to grind out possessions. They are prone to coughing up the ball, which is a bit strange for a team that relies on set jump shots. Duke will have to be disciplined and stick to their man. Leaving a man open in the corner or allowing a backdoor cut is going to cost the team. Duke has the personnel to matchup with MSU's wings and has more explosive and talented players. I wouldn't be surprised to see DJ Steward with the starting assignment with Jordan Goldwire assigned to defend Langford or Watts. Duke cannot afford the silly mistakes it made against Coppin State. If they play more intelligent basketball, cut off passing lanes, get their wings to cough up the ball, and make open jumpers, Duke should have a chance to notch a signature early-season win. Playing sloppy, though, and the Spartans will eat Duke alive.

[JasonEvans]

MSU is a shot blocking machine - 5 against E. Mich and then 12 against Notre Dame. Typical of an Izzo team, they are strong on the boards too. They outrebounded ND by 12 and E.M. by 8.

Interestingly, they are the opposite of current hoops trends in terms of who they play. Many teams are embracing small-ball and playing 3 and even 4 guard lineups, but MSU really only plays 3 guards total the whole game, filling their lineup with burly forwards like Thomas Kithier, Joey Hauser, and Marcus Bingham. Also, unlike most top-tier teams, they have no real impact freshmen. A couple sophs play, but the bulk of the guys who see time are juniors and seniors… that means this will be game of men playing against Duke’s boys.

-Jason "I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be surprised, of course, but unless we shoot really well and protect the ball, I would expect Duke to lose by about 5 or so" Evans

[DavidBenAkiva]

MSU is a shot blocking machine - 5 against E. Mich and then 12 against Notre Dame. Typical of an Izzo team, they are strong on the boards too. They outrebounded ND by 12 and E.M. by 8.

Interestingly, they are the opposite of current hoops trends in terms of who they play. Many teams are embracing small-ball and playing 3 and even 4 guard lineups, but MSU really only plays 3 guards total the whole game, filling their lineup with burly forwards like Thomas Kithier, Joey Hauser, and Marcus Bingham. Also, unlike most top-tier teams, they have no real impact freshmen. A couple sophs play, but the bulk of the guys who see time are juniors and seniors… that means this will be game of men playing against Duke’s boys.

-Jason "I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be surprised, of course, but unless we shoot really well and protect the ball, I would expect Duke to lose by about 5 or so" Evans

It's funny you described Kithier, Hauser, and Bingham as "burly forwards" as that doesn't come to mind when I see them. Hauser has noticeably bulked up since his freshman season, but he's more of a stretch 4 in my mind than a burly forward. I'm curious to see Matthew Hurt against him as both possess similar skillsets. Hauser looks a little bigger, of course, but not by much. I think Hurt can keep his feet moving enough on defense to check him. It should be interesting to watch, though, and I expect to see Patrick Tape in this game.

Kithier is a forward, but he's not as burly as Hauser and runs 6'8" 230 lbs. He's not overly skilled but more lithe in my view. His game, hiding out along the baseline, setting screens, getting offensive rebounds, is certainly more lunch pail/hardhat than he looks. He plays a similar role to that of Kenny Goins. And Bingham is a twig. He's a long and lanky player that doesn't do particularly well when a defender can body him up inside.

[Troublemaker]

-Jason "I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be surprised, of course, but unless we shoot really well and protect the ball, I would expect Duke to lose by about 5 or so" Evans

Well, as someone who is (once again) dominating the Degenerates contest (#1 in both spread and over/under bets, as of the time of this post), I can't wait to take Duke in this game. Will the books make Duke a short favorite like 3.5 or so? Would be nice.

You should know better, my friend. I guarantee you Izzo wanted Duke to beat Coppin St by 60 heading into this game.

[MChambers]

I'm happy to see that Loyer has fully recovered from the two broken ankles he suffered trying to guard Tre Jones last year.

In all seriousness, no one should help off of Loyer, because he's a very good shooter. Defensively, he's a liability.

[DavidBenAkiva]

I'm happy to see that Loyer has fully recovered from the two broken ankles he suffered trying to guard Tre Jones last year.

In all seriousness, no one should help off of Loyer, because he's a very good shooter. Defensively, he's a liability.

Loyer provides a very interesting matchup for Duke. Notre Dame had success early in the game against MSU by posting their guards against Loyer and just cooking him. I would not be surprised to see DJ Steward as the only guard for Duke stretches when Loyer is in the game with Moore, Hurt, Johnson and maybe Brakefield or Coleman to match up with the MSU wings/forwards. Steward will absolutely cook Loyer if he's open or attack on closeouts. Roach might have similar success against Loyer, too. He's a heady player and a net positive for MSU when he's scoring the ball. But if he can be bottled up a little on offense, teams can take advantage of him on the other end of the court.

[CDu]

MSU has had some turnover in their roster, and as such it doesn't feel quite the usual look for Coach Izzo. They still play a rugged style and pound the glass, though, so bring your hardhats. And I'm sure they'll be in the mix in the Big Ten when all is said and done.

Center: The Spartans don't really start a C this year, although Marcus Bingham Jr (6'11", 225lb junior) plays about as much as the starters in the frontcourt despite coming off the bench. Bingham is long, lean, and athletic. He's a shotblocking machine and a strong defensive rebounder, and offensively has a nice shooting touch for a guy his size. He isn't very physical inside, but can really impact the game with his length and athleticism. Mady Missoko (6'9", 235lb freshman from Mali) is the developmental center on the team behind Bingham, and plays sparingly.

Forwards: Joey Hauser (6'9", 220lb junior transfer from Marquette) is the team's leading scorer and rebounder, although the scoring lead is pretty minimal as they've played a bunch of different guys. He's a physical player in the paint, though more of a below-the-rim type. Offensively, he is a terrific shooter and passer and capable low-post scorer as well. Very skilled and very smart, and MSU runs a lot of their offense through his capable hands. The other starting forward is Thomas Kithier (6'8", 230lb junior). Kithier is a scrappy player who doesn't possess great athleticism, but knows his role and fits the typical mold of a hard-working MSU big. He came to MSU with a reputation as a decent shooter, but that has not materialized in his career at East Lansing. Kithier is more of a rotational big and doesn't play typical starter minutes, as Izzo will turn to Bingham Jr fairly quickly. Malik Hall (6'7", 215lb sophomore) is the other main option off the bench. Hall plays more of a high-post role and is a true glue guy and role player. He has a high basketball IQ and is a very good passer for a forward, and does a lot of the dirty work for the Spartans off the bench. Julius Marble II (6'8", 225lb sophomore) plays sparingly as needed off the bench as a rugged rotational big.

Wings: Aaron Henry is the team's other star player. Henry is more of a forward/wing and even plays a bit at PF for the Spartans in a smallball look. Physically, he's a bit like Wendell Moore: long-armed and pretty strong, and a terrific defender. He may be a bit more of a leaper than Moore, though maybe not quite as skilled as a ballhandler. Henry burst onto the scene down the stretch as a freshman, then had a bit of a disappointing sophomore year. He shoots okay from the perimeter, but is a really dangerous slasher and baseline lurker, and is dynamite in transition. The Spartans will look for him to really step up this year, as he has NBA potential if he can harness those physical gifts more consistently. In that way, he's very similar to Moore. Josh Langford (6'5", 200lb fifth-year senior) is the elder statesman of the team, and was turning into a real star for the team in the 2019 season before a foot injury ended his season in late-December. He then missed all of last year after having surgery on the same injured foot from the year prior. Langford was an athletic slasher coming out of high school, but has proven to be a terrific 3pt shooter throughout his time at MSU. It remains to be seen if he is as effective off the dribble following his long injury sabbatical. But the shooting touch remains for sure. The third wing of note is Gabe Brown (6'7", 210lb junior). Brown is more of a 3-and-D wing, with long arms and a nice shooting touch. He doesn't add much off the dribble, and the majority of his looks are catch-and-shoot 3s.

Guards: The PG spot is the area for which the team has seen the biggest change. Last year, they had all-world PG Cassius Winston. He's gone, and the change has forced MSU to really change its style. Foster Loyer (6'0", 175lb junior) has started the team's first two games, with mixed results. He played sparingly as an underclassman for the Spartans, but had a great opener against Eastern Michigan (6-10 from 3). Unfortunately, he came back to Earth against Notre Dame, scoring just 3 points in 17 minutes. Loyer is undersized and lacks athleticism, but plays hard-nosed and has a good bball IQ. He can shoot, but isn't going to make a ton of wow plays with the ball. Honestly, he's probably overmatched at the major college level as a PG. But he rarely tries to do too much. His PG partner is Mark "Rocket" Watts (6'2", 185lb sophomore). Watts is a very talented player who spent time a bit out of position last year playing off the ball next to Cassius Winston. He's a lead guard through and through, quite capable of attacking defenses off the dribble. He is a better shooter than his 28% from 3 last year would suggest, and is fearless with the ball. I'd expect him eventually to take over as the starter, but for now he's settling for playing starter's minutes as the sixth man. Of the two options at PG, he's the dynamic playmaker whereas Loyer is the steady, unspectacular hand.

It's going to be an interesting season for the Spartans as there is so much uncertainty with their backcourt. They have a lot of bodies in the frontcourt, but few are superlative aside from Hauser. They are terrific on the wings though, and Izzo usually finds a way to make things work inside. So as long as they get competent PG play, they'll be tough. Here's hoping that their PG play isn't figured out this week!

[CDu]

Loyer provides a very interesting matchup for Duke. Notre Dame had success early in the game against MSU by posting their guards against Loyer and just cooking him. I would not be surprised to see DJ Steward as the only guard for Duke stretches when Loyer is in the game with Moore, Hurt, Johnson and maybe Brakefield or Coleman to match up with the MSU wings/forwards. Steward will absolutely cook Loyer if he's open or attack on closeouts. Roach might have similar success against Loyer, too. He's a heady player and a net positive for MSU when he's scoring the ball. But if he can be bottled up a little on offense, teams can take advantage of him on the other end of the court.

I will be surprised if Loyer plays more than about 15 minutes against us to be honest. He had a nice shooting game against a lower-tier opponent, but he got a bit exposed against an ACC opponent. On balance, I think the Spartans will quickly turn to Watts as their best option once they start consistently playing better teams.

And based on yesterday's game, I'd be surprised if we see one-guard lineups for Duke too much this season. I think we'll see two of Roach/Steward/Goldwire for most of every game.

[Billy Dat]

Here's the stuff I am looking out for tomorrow night:
-Jalen Johnson was not only productive, but he carried himself as if he was the alpha dog of the team with that "I am the best player on the court" demeanor. We need that this year, and I am very interested to see how that plays out against a huge upgrade in opponent. I am also curious to see if he can continue to rebound like he did against MSU's "hit, find, fetch" rebounding approach?
-Can Duke cut down on the turnovers and fouls?
-Can Duke get to the line more and shoot better than 40%?
-Can we get better production from our veterans? Johnson, Roach and Steward played many more minutes than Hurt, Moore and Goldwire. A lot of that was foul trouble, but being a leader means playing hard and productively without fouling.
-Coppin State spread the court and took 35 3s. Sparty took fewer than 30 in their two games so far. They play at a much slower pace than us. It's going to be a very different challenge for Duke. I could see MSU just try to get the board up on the glass and then gang rebound to try and bully us around.

[CDu]

Here's the stuff I am looking out for tomorrow night:
-Jalen Johnson was not only productive, but he carried himself as if he was the alpha dog of the team with that "I am the best player on the court" demeanor. We need that this year, and I am very interested to see how that plays out against a huge upgrade in opponent. I am also curious to see if he can continue to rebound like he did against MSU's "hit, find, fetch" rebounding approach?
-Can Duke cut down on the turnovers and fouls?
-Can Duke get to the line more and shoot better than 40%?
-Can we get better production from our veterans? Johnson, Roach and Steward played many more minutes than Hurt, Moore and Goldwire. A lot of that was foul trouble, but being a leader means playing hard and productively without fouling.
-Coppin State spread the court and took 35 3s. Sparty took fewer than 30 in their two games so far. They play at a much slower pace than us. It's going to be a very different challenge for Duke. I could see MSU just try to get the board up on the glass and then gang rebound to try and bully us around.

Yeah, it will be a VERY different style than against Coppin State. It will be interesting to see how our half court offense looks against a team less well-suited to handle a "smallball" frontcourt. Conversely, it will be interesting to see how our "smalllball" frontcourt handles a team that plays a bit more traditionally in the frontcourt, and is known for physicality inside.

The good news is that, if we do get bullied a bit, we have some guys (Coleman, Tape) who should be able to counter that that we didn't utilize in the last game. So along with my interest in seeing how Hurt and Johnson do against a more physical frontcourt, I'm interested in seeing if/how the rotation changes given the different opponent.

I'd also like to see how Roach does against a less gifted PG opponent. He was somewhat effective against Coppin State, but not quite as impressive as I'd hoped based on the preseason chatter. Hopefully that was somewhat due to jitters and somewhat due to playing against a very experienced opponent.

I'd also like to see how Steward does against a much more physical opposing backcourt. He was spectacular in the opener, and undeniably has talent and confidence. The question will be how he fares against physicality, something he hasn't seen much of yet.

Talent-wise, we're way above MSU. Their most talented players align with our 3rd or 4th best, and the dropoff from their two most talented to their #3 falls to below our rotation. But they are more experienced and they are well-coached, and they've occasionally made up for that talent discrepancy in the past. So I do want to see where we are as a team.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Yeah, it will be a VERY different style than against Coppin State. It will be interesting to see how our half court offense looks against a team less well-suited to handle a "smallball" frontcourt. Conversely, it will be interesting to see how our "smalllball" frontcourt handles a team that plays a bit more traditionally in the frontcourt, and is known for physicality inside.

The good news is that, if we do get bullied a bit, we have some guys (Coleman, Tape) who should be able to counter that that we didn't utilize in the last game. So along with my interest in seeing how Hurt and Johnson do against a more physical frontcourt, I'm interested in seeing if/how the rotation changes given the different opponent.

I'd also like to see how Roach does against a less gifted PG opponent. He was somewhat effective against Coppin State, but not quite as impressive as I'd hoped based on the preseason chatter. Hopefully that was somewhat due to jitters and somewhat due to playing against a very experienced opponent.

I'd also like to see how Steward does against a much more physical opposing backcourt. He was spectacular in the opener, and undeniably has talent and confidence. The question will be how he fares against physicality, something he hasn't seen much of yet.

Talent-wise, we're way above MSU. Their most talented players align with our 3rd or 4th best, and the dropoff from their two most talented to their #3 falls to below our rotation. But they are more experienced and they are well-coached, and they've occasionally made up for that talent discrepancy in the past. So I do want to see where we are as a team.

Agree with everything, and also will be watching Roach closely...he's my biggest worry so far. When he didn't start against Coppin St, I was surprised and thought maybe it had something to do with first game?? I would expect a McDonald's All American PG to be able to start over Jordan Goldwire. Then when he checked in, I noticed he looked really small compared to every other player on the court. I've seen him listed at 6'2 , 180lbs but to me he looked more like 6'1 , 170lbs. His size stood out to me because it looked like it made him easier to defend. I've seen tiny guards whose size didn't really make them easier to defend because they had blazing speed/quickness and/or an uncanny ability to create shots amongst bigger players. I saw Jermemy get trapped and struggle to pass out of it because of his small size. He made a few turnovers (they all did, so won't hold that against him yet), and he did not penetrate and pass particularly well. The first game left me wondering what his best skill set is. An undersized PG who basically dribbles the ball up and begins the offense by passing to the wing in a weave around the perimeter won't cut it in the ACC. I want to see Jeremy creating in the open court, penetrating and either finishing or dishing to Jalen J for dunks, be a decent shooter, and pressure the other team's PG. Michigan State should be a good test for his small size and physicality.

[scottdude8]

EDIT: Mods, I have screwed up again. Please change the date to 12/1.

The Blue Devils continue their season on Tuesday night facing off against a familiar foe in a very unusual circumstance. Michigan State will play in a mostly empty Cameron Indoor Stadium as part of the Champions Classic. The annual event was originally intended to kick off the college basketball season. Instead, the Spartans will fly to RDU while Kansas and Kentucky will play in Indianapolis. Duke has verbally committed to returning to Lansing in the future. Personally, I hope it takes place next season between two teams that should be ranked atop the polls. That's next year. This year, Duke will look to build of an uneven performance against Coppin State.

Looking at MSU, the roster matches up well against Duke. Each team is deep with versatile wings. MSU features a number of talented wings, although none of them jump out as overwhelming talent. The roster has talent with 7 players ranked in the RSCI top 100 in their respective recruiting classes. However, only senior Joshua Langford was a top 20 player and was ranked 20th in his class. Langford appears to be fully healthy after two seasons of tough breaks. He's a bigger guard that can really shoot the ball. He has a career 3P% over 40% and is better than 80% from the FT line. So far on this young season, he is primarily taking 3's but has shown a more diverse game in the past. The other wings are all shooters, including Marquette transfer Joey Hauser. The 6'9" sophomore hit 45% of his threes as a freshman playing for Wojo, although he is 0-6 on the young season. Hauser knows and has played against Jalen Johnson growing up, so that's a matchup to watch.

Other wings include Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Malik Hall. These three all run about 6'6" and 6'7" with Henry being the more polished of the trio. They each have decent jumpers but are not the shooters that Hauser and Langford are. Still, it would be a good idea to not leave them alone in the corner. Henry is more of a slasher than the the others, but they all bring good toughness and team defense to the table. Henry and Hauser, and to a lesser extent Malik Hall, have been primary facilitators so far this year and have created a ton of looks for their teammates. Look for them to have the ball in their hands a lot. They have been a little loose with the ball, though, so it presents an opportunity for Duke to generate turnovers and get out in transition.

The guards for MSU can both shoot the ball very well. Junior 6'0" PG Foster Loyer has taken over the starting position for the Spartans this year. Duke fans may remember Loyer as the guy that fell down and fouled Tre Jones on a breakaway layup. Despite that ignominy, Loyer is quite good and has started the year off with a bang. He has made 6 of his 10 3-point attempts and every other field goal and free throw attempted. Loyer is not someone that gets to the rim or otherwise breaks his man down. You have to watch him on offense because of his shooting, but he's not going to blow past his defender. Sophomore G Rocket Watts is coming off the bench so far this year after starting much of last season and has been productive. He's a combo guard, like DJ Steward, more than a natural point guard but has been a better facilitator than Loyer. He's a dangerous scorer and should be a really good college player for Tom Izzo.

Up front, the Spartans play 6'11" JR Marcu Bingham, an excellent rim protector with a bit of a raw offensive game. Bingham will take the occasional jumper but it is not his primary role. With so many good and capable shooters around him, it's not a wise decision. He is there to protect the rim, get rebounds, and pass out of the post when the defense collapses. He does those things very well. MSU has a pair of backup big men, including 6'8" JR Thomas Kithier and 6'9" FR Mady Sissoko. Kithier is a moderately skilled big that plays good team defense, will score around the rim a little, but mostly sets screens and helps his teammates out. Sissoko won't get much playing time this year but projects as a shot blocker more in the mold of a thicker Bingham.

Overall, this is a team that won't wow you with individual talent but brings a ton of shooting and team defense to the table. MSU has traditionally struggled to generate turnovers, relying on their withering defense to grind out possessions. They are prone to coughing up the ball, which is a bit strange for a team that relies on set jump shots. Duke will have to be disciplined and stick to their man. Leaving a man open in the corner or allowing a backdoor cut is going to cost the team. Duke has the personnel to matchup with MSU's wings and has more explosive and talented players. I wouldn't be surprised to see DJ Steward with the starting assignment with Jordan Goldwire assigned to defend Langford or Watts. Duke cannot afford the silly mistakes it made against Coppin State. If they play more intelligent basketball, cut off passing lanes, get their wings to cough up the ball, and make open jumpers, Duke should have a chance to notch a signature early-season win. Playing sloppy, though, and the Spartans will eat Duke alive.

Great work on this preview. A few additional points from a guy who's hate-watched a ton of MSU basketball being a Michigan fan:
-While MSU has impressed in their early action, I still think that their early season ranking way overlooks how much they lost in Winston and Tillman. Those two guys were almost the entirety of MSU's team last year, with all various wings all playing inconsistent complimentary roles. Yes, you could say the same thing about Duke losing Tre and Vern, but we've already seen the incoming talent we've replaced them with: MSU doesn't have any freshman of that caliber.
-Loyer has surprised with his productivity early in the year, and local media was quite shocked that he was the opening day starter. Loyer entered MSU with lots of local fanfare, as he was Michigan Mr. Basketball, but it was quickly apparent in his first two years that he simply wasn't a B1G caliber athlete, at least yet. He can definitely shoot the ball, but his ability to defend high-level PGs and deal with pressure from strong defenders is a big question mark. If I were Coach K (which obviously I'm not or else I wouldn't be posting this on a message board, hahaha) I would give JG a single task on Tuesday: hound Loyer and make his life miserable offensively. I think there is a real potential to generate easy buckets by forcing him into turnovers. And on the other end of the court, any time we can use screens to force him to defend anyone other than JG is a matchup strongly in our favor.
-As previously mentioned, MSU does have size, but it is very inexperienced size... Bingham showed flashes last year but wasn't asked to do too much since Tillman was such a strong presence. Kithier, meanwhile, hasn't been more than a 5-10 mpg guy during his career and hasn't shown an ability to do much more than set screens and play hard on D. Considering neither big has a refined offensive game, if Hurt and Johnson can do a solid job on the defensive glass, Duke's small lineup with Hurt at the 5 could still be viable; if so, either Bingham or Kithier guarding Hurt is a plus matchup in our favor.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, it will be a VERY different style than against Coppin State. It will be interesting to see how our half court offense looks against a team less well-suited to handle a "smallball" frontcourt. Conversely, it will be interesting to see how our "smalllball" frontcourt handles a team that plays a bit more traditionally in the frontcourt, and is known for physicality inside.

The good news is that, if we do get bullied a bit, we have some guys (Coleman, Tape) who should be able to counter that that we didn't utilize in the last game. So along with my interest in seeing how Hurt and Johnson do against a more physical frontcourt, I'm interested in seeing if/how the rotation changes given the different opponent.

I'd also like to see how Roach does against a less gifted PG opponent. He was somewhat effective against Coppin State, but not quite as impressive as I'd hoped based on the preseason chatter. Hopefully that was somewhat due to jitters and somewhat due to playing against a very experienced opponent.

I'd also like to see how Steward does against a much more physical opposing backcourt. He was spectacular in the opener, and undeniably has talent and confidence. The question will be how he fares against physicality, something he hasn't seen much of yet.

Talent-wise, we're way above MSU. Their most talented players align with our 3rd or 4th best, and the dropoff from their two most talented to their #3 falls to below our rotation. But they are more experienced and they are well-coached, and they've occasionally made up for that talent discrepancy in the past. So I do want to see where we are as a team.

I'm also very interested to see what three of our four veterans do (at the least the three whom I found to be disappointing in the opening game). The only one I thought did a good job was Hurt, because he showed a level of aggressiveness and improvement that just wasn't there last year. His rebounding was great (for Hurt) and his turnovers were minimal (compared to his teammates, at least). His other stats were okay and his defense needs a little help, but I really liked what I saw. If Hurt continues this, he'll be stellar.

With Goldwire, I want to see him stop trying to do so much. Hell, I want him to execute simple plays better. Goldwire is at his best when his defense leads his offense, and that's what we need from him. We don't need him to distribute; we need to him to fight. I'm a little less worried about Goldwire than Moore or Baker, because Goldwire started off really slow last year. I think he needs a little time. But as a leader (and I believe captain), he needs to figure it out quickly.

With Moore, I didn't see anything different. His shooting still looks off (he leans in or side-to-side on his shots). His rebounding and playmaking her subpar, and he was a fouling machine. As someone who is supposed to be a defensive leader, I want to see that as the basis of his game. Ideally, I'd love to see improvement on offense (especially shooting), but I fear that may be asking for too much right now.

With Baker, I'm a little lost (I guess like Baker himself). Baker's bread and butter is shooting, but that wasn't working against CSU. And if that doesn't work, what exactly is Baker? He offers no defense, no intangibles, no inside scoring... I don't really understand his value. He's the player I'm most concerned about and the player I believe will be out of the rotation sooner rather than later. At the very least, he has to stay in front of his man. He's soooooooo bad on defense right now.

[MChambers]

-As previously mentioned, MSU does have size, but it is very inexperienced size... Bingham showed flashes last year but wasn't asked to do too much since Tillman was such a strong presence. Kithier, meanwhile, hasn't been more than a 5-10 mpg guy during his career and hasn't shown an ability to do much more than set screens and play hard on D. Considering neither big has a refined offensive game, if Hurt and Johnson can do a solid job on the defensive glass, Duke's small lineup with Hurt at the 5 could still be viable; if so, either Bingham or Kithier guarding Hurt is a plus matchup in our favor.

Joey Hauser, who is 21, has had a year at Marquette and a year at MSU, albeit only practicing. He's much better than Kithier and probably better than Bingham. Similar player to Hurt, but probably quicker.

[rsvman]

I'm also very interested to see what three of our four veterans do (at the least the three whom I found to be disappointing in the opening game). The only one I thought did a good job was Hurt, because he showed a level of aggressiveness and improvement that just wasn't there last year. His rebounding was great (for Hurt) and his turnovers were minimal (compared to his teammates, at least). His other stats were okay and his defense needs a little help, but I really liked what I saw. If Hurt continues this, he'll be stellar.

With Goldwire, I want to see him stop trying to do so much. Hell, I want him to execute simple plays better. Goldwire is at his best when his defense leads his offense, and that's what we need from him. We don't need him to distribute; we need to him to fight. I'm a little less worried about Goldwire than Moore or Baker, because Goldwire started off really slow last year. I think he needs a little time. But as a leader (and I believe captain), he needs to figure it out quickly.

With Moore, I didn't see anything different. His shooting still looks off (he leans in or side-to-side on his shots). His rebounding and playmaking her subpar, and he was a fouling machine. As someone who is supposed to be a defensive leader, I want to see that as the basis of his game. Ideally, I'd love to see improvement on offense (especially shooting), but I fear that may be asking for too much right now.

With Baker, I'm a little lost (I guess like Baker himself). Baker's bread and butter is shooting, but that wasn't working against CSU. And if that doesn't work, what exactly is Baker? He offers no defense, no intangibles, no inside scoring... I don't really understand his value. He's the player I'm most concerned about and the player I believe will be out of the rotation sooner rather than later. At the very least, he has to stay in front of his man. He's soooooooo bad on defense right now.

Joey Buckets needs to earn the moniker in order to earn some time. I think the ship has sailed in terms of his becoming a great defender. If he makes 40+ percent of threes, the defensive troubles can perhaps be overlooked. He tends to get beat by his man off the dribble, so he is giving up largely twos, not threes. The math works out pretty well when you are trading threes for twos; however, if he is clanking threes he is a liability.

[scottdude8]

Joey Hauser, who is 21, has had a year at Marquette and a year at MSU, albeit only practicing. He's much better than Kithier and probably better than Bingham. Similar player to Hurt, but probably quicker.

Very true... I didn't include him since I haven't yet seen him play (no MSU games on TV in Canada yet, haha), but he can/should be considered a "newcomer" offsetting the Winston/Tillman losses.

[jv001]

Agree with everything, and also will be watching Roach closely...he's my biggest worry so far. When he didn't start against Coppin St, I was surprised and thought maybe it had something to do with first game?? I would expect a McDonald's All American PG to be able to start over Jordan Goldwire. Then when he checked in, I noticed he looked really small compared to every other player on the court. I've seen him listed at 6'2 , 180lbs but to me he looked more like 6'1 , 170lbs. His size stood out to me because it looked like it made him easier to defend. I've seen tiny guards whose size didn't really make them easier to defend because they had blazing speed/quickness and/or an uncanny ability to create shots amongst bigger players. I saw Jermemy get trapped and struggle to pass out of it because of his small size. He made a few turnovers (they all did, so won't hold that against him yet), and he did not penetrate and pass particularly well. The first game left me wondering what his best skill set is. An undersized PG who basically dribbles the ball up and begins the offense by passing to the wing in a weave around the perimeter won't cut it in the ACC. I want to see Jeremy creating in the open court, penetrating and either finishing or dishing to Jalen J for dunks, be a decent shooter, and pressure the other team's PG. Michigan State should be a good test for his small size and physicality.

I think you described Goldwire too. Except the undersized part. Like you, I want to see our point guard create some offense and defend the other teams point guard. Goldwire can do that very well but I don't know about creating offense.

GoDuke!

[budwom]

Joey Buckets needs to earn the moniker in order to earn some time. I think the ship has sailed in terms of his becoming a great defender. If he makes 40+ percent of threes, the defensive troubles can perhaps be overlooked. He tends to get beat by his man off the dribble, so he is giving up largely twos, not threes. The math works out pretty well when you are trading threes for twos; however, if he is clanking threes he is a liability.

That's why I prefer Joey Donuts, that way the moniker works if he's either good OR bad in a given game. Flexibility!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Joey Buckets needs to earn the moniker in order to earn some time. I think the ship has sailed in terms of his becoming a great defender. If he makes 40+ percent of threes, the defensive troubles can perhaps be overlooked. He tends to get beat by his man off the dribble, so he is giving up largely twos, not threes. The math works out pretty well when you are trading threes for twos; however, if he is clanking threes he is a liability.

Yup. Agreed.

Kennard was a defensive liability; a big one at that. But his offensive output was through the roof.

It's unrealistic to assume Joey will be like Kennard. If that's the case, he needs to do something more than just planting himself on the 3pt line or planting himself in front of his defensive assignment (only to get blown by a second later).

[CDu]

Agree with everything, and also will be watching Roach closely...he's my biggest worry so far. When he didn't start against Coppin St, I was surprised and thought maybe it had something to do with first game?? I would expect a McDonald's All American PG to be able to start over Jordan Goldwire. Then when he checked in, I noticed he looked really small compared to every other player on the court. I've seen him listed at 6'2 , 180lbs but to me he looked more like 6'1 , 170lbs. His size stood out to me because it looked like it made him easier to defend. I've seen tiny guards whose size didn't really make them easier to defend because they had blazing speed/quickness and/or an uncanny ability to create shots amongst bigger players. I saw Jermemy get trapped and struggle to pass out of it because of his small size. He made a few turnovers (they all did, so won't hold that against him yet), and he did not penetrate and pass particularly well. The first game left me wondering what his best skill set is. An undersized PG who basically dribbles the ball up and begins the offense by passing to the wing in a weave around the perimeter won't cut it in the ACC. I want to see Jeremy creating in the open court, penetrating and either finishing or dishing to Jalen J for dunks, be a decent shooter, and pressure the other team's PG. Michigan State should be a good test for his small size and physicality.

I don't have the same impression of Roach from the Coppin State game. I thought he looked just fine out there. He didn't have a dominant showing like Johnson and Steward, but he was really strong. I don't know exactly why Coach K started Goldwire and Baker over Roach and Steward, but worth noting that both freshmen played more than any of the upperclassmen.

I don't remember many (if any) incidences of Roach getting trapped and struggling with it. His turnovers were generally trying to force a pass for a scoring opportunity. I also don't think Roach looked small. But your mileage may vary.

I was disappointed that Roach didn't get to the rim more, and that he missed 3 of 4 free throws. But aside from that, I thought he looked solid. Certainly the hope is for more than solid, but hopefully that was a first-game jitters thing for him.