MBB: Duke v Miami (Sat, 1/4, 8:00 pm, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[CDu]

Aren't you the guy who wrote at 10:31 a.m. that the point had been sufficiently made? :-)

Touche, good sir. Though to be fair, DBA and another continued to post that it doesn’t exist after those three posts. And to be fair, my post did at least say different stuff (including new info that it was also in the 2019 ACC manual). But, apparently I was wrong and those three posts were not sufficient as the discussion continued for several posts after that. Though at least those posts didn’t all say the exact same thing.

Anywho, back to the regularly-scheduled game thread discussion (hopefully). Here’s hoping that Hurt can build off his awesome first half against BC and put up another strong scoring performance against a really bad defense in Miami. If he can score in support of Carey, that will go a long way toward distancing ourselves from the Canes.

[jimsumner]

This week's sign that the Apocalypse is upon us (sorry SI).

I am currently sitting in Cameron Indoor Stadium looking at numerous banners proclaiming a certain Duke men's or women's basketball team is "Atlantic Coast Conference [Women's/Men's] Champions, Regular Season, with appropriate year while reading a thread in which people are insisting that there is no such thing as an ACC regular-season championship.

Back to your regular programming.

[OldPhiKap]

This week's sign that the Apocalypse is upon us (sorry SI).

I am currently sitting in Cameron Indoor Stadium looking at numerous banners proclaiming a certain Duke men's or women's basketball team is "Atlantic Coast Conference [Women's/Men's] Champions, Regular Season, with appropriate year while reading a thread in which people are insisting that there is no such thing as an ACC regular-season championship.

Back to your regular programming.

“ Schrödinger‘s Championships”

[lotusland]

This week's sign that the Apocalypse is upon us (sorry SI).

I am currently sitting in Cameron Indoor Stadium looking at numerous banners proclaiming a certain Duke men's or women's basketball team is "Atlantic Coast Conference [Women's/Men's] Champions, Regular Season, with appropriate year while reading a thread in which people are insisting that there is no such thing as an ACC regular-season championship.

Back to your regular programming.

I moved last spring and threw out shelves of trophies, plaques and ribbons that our kids had “won” in various sports leagues. I can’t wrap my head around the idea of a “co-champion”. Seems like there ought to be a tournament to settle a situation like that.

[CDu]

I moved last spring and threw out shelves of trophies, plaques and ribbons that our kids had “won” in various sports leagues. I can’t wrap my head around the idea of a “co-champion”. Seems like there ought to be a tournament to settle a situation like that.

Seems like that would only be appropriate if (a) the league cares enough about it to decide between the co-champs and (b) that tournament is only among the co-champs.

[rsvman]

I find this discussion kind of amusing. I could be wrong, but I suspect that if Duke had won the regular season championship more frequently of late, there would be less grousing about its merit, or lack thereof.

Having said that, I'm of the belief that the conference tournament championship is more important. I know that tournaments are inherently unfair, even more so than an unbalanced regular season. But when you win the Super Bowl, you're the ultimate champ, even though the playoffs really aren't that fair. And when you win the NCAA basketball tournament, you're the champ even though a blown call or a missed shot here or there could change the outcome entirely. That's part of what people love about sports. No, it's not fair, but it's compelling!

[Troublemaker]

Really anxious to see how we fare against Miami this weekend. I get the feeling this team is built well for those tough ACC road games, but this will be the first real test.

On "the first real test", don't forget about our December win in Blacksburg, where we have had some very good teams go down.

Indeed, and also that @VaTech game came on the heels of the big win @MSU and during finals. Coach K actually called that week the toughest of his career, and even if we assume some exaggeration there, I do think it's a tougher test than this @Miami game. Also, I expect Duke to be bigger favorites in this game point-spread-wise. Now, that doesn't mean that because we passed a bigger test previously that we will pass this current test. If sports were so logical, we'd all own million dollar homes around Vegas.

A couple of random coaching notes:
(1) Duke needs to be prepared to execute against both m2m and zone (which shouldn't be a problem for Coach K). Miami should've lost at Clemson, was down by 10 in the latter stages of that game, went to a zone that Clemson wasn't able to score on for a few possessions, and that got the Canes back into the game, eventually leading to an OT win.
(2) Earlier this season, there was a Duke game against a mid or low major (I forget which opponent it was -- old age) where we spent a lot of the game inverting the offense and posting up our guards like Tre and Cassius for scores. With Chris Lykes being 5'7", I could see us going that direction again.
(3) As always, Miami will test our pick-n-roll (PNR) defense. Running PNRs is a cornerstone of the Miami program. Again, I expect Duke to guard it well this season.

[CDu]

I find this discussion kind of amusing. I could be wrong, but I suspect that if Duke had won the regular season championship more frequently of late, there would be less grousing about its merit, or lack thereof.

Having said that, I'm of the belief that the conference tournament championship is more important. I know that tournaments are inherently unfair, even more so than an unbalanced regular season. But when you win the Super Bowl, you're the ultimate champ, even though the playoffs really aren't that fair. And when you win the NCAA basketball tournament, you're the champ even though a blown call or a missed shot here or there could change the outcome entirely. That's part of what people love about sports. No, it's not fair, but it's compelling!

I think most will agree that the tournament is more important (by virtue of it signifying the official conference champ and having the tourney bid attached. This debate has only been about the existence of the regular season championship - not its relative importance.

[Indoor66]

I find this discussion kind of amusing. I could be wrong, but I suspect that if Duke had won the regular season championship more frequently of late, there would be less grousing about its merit, or lack thereof.

Having said that, I'm of the belief that the conference tournament championship is more important. I know that tournaments are inherently unfair, even more so than an unbalanced regular season. But when you win the Super Bowl, you're the ultimate champ, even though the playoffs really aren't that fair. And when you win the NCAA basketball tournament, you're the champ even though a blown call or a missed shot here or there could change the outcome entirely. That's part of what people love about sports. No, it's not fair, but it's compelling!

I hear all the "not fair" talk. What is fair?

[devildeac]

I hear all the "not fair" talk. What is fair?

Any "u"nc loss in any sport. Can't get more fair than that.

9F.

[SkyBrickey]

OK, back to the game. Anyone care to predict the starting line-up?

Since AOC and Baker have been a bit up and down, and Miami's guards are talented offensively, I'll go with a wildcard...

Jones
Carey
Hurt
Stanley
Goldwire!

[Fish80]

OK, back to the game. Anyone care to predict the starting line-up?

Since AOC and Baker have been a bit up and down, and Miami's guards are talented offensively, I'll go with a wildcard...

Jones
Carey
Hurt
Stanley
Goldwire!

We go with the same starters as the BC game.

Jones
Carey
Hurt
Stanley
AOC

[ChillinDuke]

OK, back to the game. Anyone care to predict the starting line-up?

Since AOC and Baker have been a bit up and down, and Miami's guards are talented offensively, I'll go with a wildcard...

Jones
Carey
Hurt
Stanley
Goldwire!

I like your first four, but I'm gonna stick with AOC. Miami has the 188th-ranked defense according to KP and 193rd according to Torvik. Mediocre at best, and certainly bad for a major conference team. I think we'll try AOC in the starting lineup to provide offense and overwhelm them early where they struggle most.

If that strategy fails and we find their guards scoring in bunches and we're in a dog fight, I expect we'll see more Goldwire at that time.

That's my guess.

- Chillin

[lotusland]

I find this discussion kind of amusing. I could be wrong, but I suspect that if Duke had won the regular season championship more frequently of late, there would be less grousing about its merit, or lack thereof.

Having said that, I'm of the belief that the conference tournament championship is more important. I know that tournaments are inherently unfair, even more so than an unbalanced regular season. But when you win the Super Bowl, you're the ultimate champ, even though the playoffs really aren't that fair. And when you win the NCAA basketball tournament, you're the champ even though a blown call or a missed shot here or there could change the outcome entirely. That's part of what people love about sports. No, it's not fair, but it's compelling!

I think the NCAA and NFL should award a regular season championship to the overall top seeded team going into the playoffs/tournament. That way the biggest chokers could also hang a banner - no offense to the Wahoo faithful.

[CDu]

I think the NCAA and NFL should award a regular season championship to the overall top seeded team going into the playoffs/tournament. That way the biggest chokers could also hang a banner - no offense to the Wahoo faithful.

Well, the NFL does award regular season championships. To each division winner. So does MLB.

[lotusland]

Well, the NFL does award regular season championships. To each division winner. So does MLB.

But there is not also a tournament champion for the division on either the NFL or MLB. Also there is never a co-champion. I just don’t think ACC teams that have “won” a regular season championship have actually accomplished anything more than ACC teams who finished in first place before the so-called regular season championship was made up. Maybe those teams should retroactively be declared themselves champions.

[uh_no]

But there is not also a tournament champion for the division on either the NFL or MLB. Also there is never a co-champion. I just don’t think ACC teams that have “won” a regular season championship have actually accomplished anything more than ACC teams who finished in first place before the so-called regular season championship was made up. Maybe those teams should retroactively be declared themselves champions.

I hear there's a bakery that specializes in such things.

[ChillinDuke]

But there is not also a tournament champion for the division on either the NFL or MLB. Also there is never a co-champion. I just don’t think ACC teams that have “won” a regular season championship have actually accomplished anything more than ACC teams who finished in first place before the so-called regular season championship was made up. Maybe those teams should retroactively be declared themselves champions.

Folks, this is the Miami pre-game and in-game. This debate has run its course and become obviously disjointed. We get it - some or many people like Lotus don't like the ACC Regular Season Title (nor apparently MLB or NFL regular season accolades/banners). That's fine. But that's missing the point that this debate got started by posters ignoring or not realizing that these are actual awards (trophies, banners, etc) that are, factually, recognized by the conferences and leagues that the teams play in. Period.

If you have an opinion on Regular Season Titles, fantastic. Glad to hear it. I do as well. But that doesn't change facts. These awards exist in the world. Ignoring them or debating their existence is bizarre.

Can we please keep this thread focused on Miami? Start a new one if you want to rip on Regular Season Titles. Heck, I'll rip on them with you - but only there.

- Chillin

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Folks, this is the Miami pre-game and in-game. This debate has run its course and become obviously disjointed. We get it - some or many people like Lotus don't like the ACC Regular Season Title (nor apparently MLB or NFL regular season accolades/banners). That's fine. But that's missing the point that this debate got started by posters ignoring or not realizing that these are actual awards (trophies, banners, etc) that are, factually, recognized by the conferences and leagues that the teams play in. Period.

If you have an opinion on Regular Season Titles, fantastic. Glad to hear it. I do as well. But that doesn't change facts. These awards exist in the world. Ignoring them or debating their existence is bizarre.

Can we please keep this thread focused on Miami? Start a new one if you want to rip on Regular Season Titles. Heck, I'll rip on them with you - but only there.

- Chillin

How about we simply break out a separate thread for the regular season discussion? There's more appetite for it than I would have guessed, but it's only very peripherally relevant to the next game, in as much as any regular season game can impact seedings and regular season standings.

Personally, the little thought that I put into those accomplishments will come in 2 months or so - not the first week of January.

[Kedsy]

I think we'll try AOC in the starting lineup to provide offense and overwhelm them early where they struggle most.

I'm not saying it won't happen (Alex has started 38% of our games, after all), but this is recency bias. For the season, among Duke's recruited scholarship players, Alex has the lowest eFG%, the lowest true shooting pct, and the 2nd lowest oRating. Despite him having two pretty good games in a row, there almost have to be better options to overwhelm someone with offense.