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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I will give my simple responses to these points. For background, I saw the original SW when I was 11 and it changed my life. Everything after that though has sorta been like James Bond films — I go for the fun and don’t take it very seriously. (George Lucas said in 1977 that he made the first SW “Episode IV” because he wanted to give the sense of joining in the middle of the old Flash Gordon serials — the whole “middle trilogy” thing grew after the fact. These are intended to be escapist pulp fiction stories and that is the mindset I take into the theatre for these).

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post


    This gets to the heart of the disagreement between folks who loved TLJ and folks who loved basically all the movies except​ TLJ.

    I am going to dump on Rian Johnson again for misunderstanding this. He wanted to take Star Wars in a new direction, to put his stamp on it, to make it "his."

    Many of us have been Star Wars fans for 40 years. We consider it "ours." JJ understood that and gave it back to us.


    When/where can we talk about "Knives Out" spoilers so I can carve me some RJ off the bone. Very enjoyable film, worth seeing, but oh boy not great nor nearly as clever as it wanted to be. But I can forgive Knives Out, and even say I gladly spent the money to see it. It was HIS movie to do with what he wanted. He should NOT have been given that freedom with TLJ.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    He should NOT have been given that freedom with TLJ.
    This line is why I am moving more and more into the "Kathleen Kennedy really messed up Star Wars" camp from the JJ/Rian screwed it up perspective. It was her job to have an overarching vision and guide the directors so three different directors (which is how it was originally going to go until Colin Trevorrow made Book of Henry and Disney panicked at giving him Star Wars IX) could create something that fit together thematically and narratively. She utterly failed.

    -Jason "if you are going to bring Palps back, leave us a breadcrumb or something in VII and VIII" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    This line is why I am moving more and more into the "Kathleen Kennedy really messed up Star Wars" camp from the JJ/Rian screwed it up perspective. It was her job to have an overarching vision and guide the directors so three different directors (which is how it was originally going to go until Colin Trevorrow made Book of Henry and Disney panicked at giving him Star Wars IX) could create something that fit together thematically and narratively. She utterly failed.

    -Jason "if you are going to bring Palps back, leave us a breadcrumb or something in VII and VIII" Evans
    I agree that the problem was with Kennedy/the overall vision (although Abrams and Johnson are intelligent people who are capable of mapping out a story themselves without being forced to by Disney). Abrams and Rian share some blame.

    Force Awakens:
    JJ did a great job introducing new characters in Force Awakens. Every single new character was a hit, IMO.
    JJ did a great job making a fun, enjoyable, "Star Wars vibe" movie.
    JJ did a terrible job setting up the story for the new trilogy.

    Last Jedi:
    Rian did a great job of challenging the characters and taking things in a new direction/showing growth.
    Rian did a terrible job of making the characters remotely likeable or relatable while they were being challenged.
    Rian did a terrible job making a fun, Star Wars-esque feeling movie. (Too much jarring slapstick comedy/comic book bravado-style banter, little to no sense of wonder)
    Rian did a terrible job of leaving any real place for the story to go with only one movie remaining (no clear villain, no real sense of direction)

    I also see people unhappy that JJ "undid" what Rian had done in TLJ...but a lot of that ("no more Jedi", "leave the past behind you") Rian undid himself at the end of the movie. In terms of Rey's parentage, I get it if people don't like her being a Palpatine, but her parents being "nobody" was always a red herring/misdirection. Nothing was undone there, there was always going to be some significant twist to her origins.

    FWIW, this was my take immediately after seeing Last Jedi:

    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Maybe part of the problem is that it feels like there is too much to wrap up in one more movie. Having both movies take place in such close proximity (time wise) was a mistake in my opinion (a lot of the personal connections are hard to believe because none of these characters have spent any significant time together), and for what it appears Rian is trying to do I really think it should have all happened in VII with two more movies to expand and explore. It is possible I am wrong, but to me it is hard to imagine this will be tied up properly in one more installment after taking such a hard right, and when looking at it as a trilogy it already lacks an overarching climax.
    I think I was mostly correct, but I think JJ ended up doing a pretty good job making a really good closing chapter in spite of the problems with the first two movies. Definitely the best movie of the sequels for me.

  4. #44
    Tangential to RoS is what is next and when?

    Sign me up for:
    -any Lando movie with a good story and Donald Glover
    -any Mace Windu movie (hello Samuel L Jackson and Irishman de-aging techniques)
    -Palpatine origin story
    -Mandalorian stories (civil wars, etc)
    -Old Republic or Sith / Jedi origin stories

    -Ashoka’s story between Clone Wars and Rebels
    -Boba Fett / Jango Fett
    -Durga (sp?) from the Cartoon Network Clone Wars shorts
    -Count D’s fall to the dark side
    -Assaj Ventress stories
    -Thrawn

    -Darth Maul (more!)
    -Darth Vader stories

    I realize Disney invalidated a lot of material as “non canon”.
    Ask me if I care, just make good and entertaining movies.
    There is a rich universe of material only limited by imagination for Star Wars stories.

    People watch drone racing on TV. If Ford vs Ferrari is a hit based on real history, is there a compelling pod racing movie people would watch?

    The Clone Wars cartoon did a great job of personalizing clones.

    A single planet, Coruscant, offers a wealth of backdrop for generations of stories.

    What about Jedi trials? Or a live action sabre construction scene? Origin of how Jedi figured out how to make light sabres?

    I think I shared this in the Mandalorian thread. Give the Star Wars keys to Favreau. I bet that would unlock a wealth of awesome Star Wars movies.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    This line is why I am moving more and more into the "Kathleen Kennedy really messed up Star Wars" camp from the JJ/Rian screwed it up perspective. It was her job to have an overarching vision and guide the directors so three different directors (which is how it was originally going to go until Colin Trevorrow made Book of Henry and Disney panicked at giving him Star Wars IX) could create something that fit together thematically and narratively. She utterly failed.

    -Jason "if you are going to bring Palps back, leave us a breadcrumb or something in VII and VIII" Evans

    I am inclined to agree with you.


    The thought Rian Johnson writing/directing a one-off of his choosing is just delicious. Don't weigh him down with any significant character from the trilogies, or even the animated series, just loosely tether him to the Star Wars Universe and give him a Disney budget, the Disney Studios and Industrial Light and Magic. And stand back ...

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    The thought Rian Johnson writing/directing a one-off of his choosing is just delicious. Don't weigh him down with any significant character from the trilogies, or even the animated series, just loosely tether him to the Star Wars Universe and give him a Disney budget, the Disney Studios and Industrial Light and Magic. And stand back ...
    I really suspect this is not gonna happen. I suspect Rian would be reluctant to return to Star Wars after the way he has been treated. Additionally, I think many die-hard fans would do everything they could to pick apart any movie he made in that universe, and the last thing Disney wants is more fan backlash. If Rian has an idea for a space/sci-fi film, he is better off making it on his own versus trying to shoe-horn it into the Star Wars universe. Disney currently does not have anything in development in terms of Star Wars movies and I suspect we won't get a new film until at least 2023 or 24.

    As for who directs it... while Favreau is a popular choice (and would go well with Kevin Feige taking a larger role in the Star Wars universe on his way to shuffling Kathleen Kennedy to the side) I suspect the next film may be from a name we have not heard very much... Tony Gilroy.

    Right now, Disney has Gilroy working on a Cassian Andor (Diego Luna's character fro Rogue One) series for Disney+. For those of you who do not know, Gilroy was called in to do some rewrites and direct some reshoots for Rogue One when Disney was worried that film was coming off the rails. He is credited with building the truly genuine relationship between Cassian Andor and Jyn Erso (which is a lot of what made that movie so great). If the stuff he does on the Andor series works well, I would not be at all surprised for Disney to announce in late 2020 or 2021 that Gilroy will be making a Star Wars film or two (I suspect they will shy away from trilogies going forward).

    -Jason "2023 or 24 seems like enough time to let folks get excited about Star Wars again" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I am inclined to agree with you.


    The thought Rian Johnson writing/directing a one-off of his choosing is just delicious. Don't weigh him down with any significant character from the trilogies, or even the animated series, just loosely tether him to the Star Wars Universe and give him a Disney budget, the Disney Studios and Industrial Light and Magic. And stand back ...
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I really suspect this is not gonna happen. I suspect Rian would be reluctant to return to Star Wars after the way he has been treated. Additionally, I think many die-hard fans would do everything they could to pick apart any movie he made in that universe, and the last thing Disney wants is more fan backlash. If Rian has an idea for a space/sci-fi film, he is better off making it on his own versus trying to shoe-horn it into the Star Wars universe. Disney currently does not have anything in development in terms of Star Wars movies and I suspect we won't get a new film until at least 2023 or 24.

    As for who directs it... while Favreau is a popular choice (and would go well with Kevin Feige taking a larger role in the Star Wars universe on his way to shuffling Kathleen Kennedy to the side) I suspect the next film may be from a name we have not heard very much... Tony Gilroy.

    Right now, Disney has Gilroy working on a Cassian Andor (Diego Luna's character fro Rogue One) series for Disney+. For those of you who do not know, Gilroy was called in to do some rewrites and direct some reshoots for Rogue One when Disney was worried that film was coming off the rails. He is credited with building the truly genuine relationship between Cassian Andor and Jyn Erso (which is a lot of what made that movie so great). If the stuff he does on the Andor series works well, I would not be at all surprised for Disney to announce in late 2020 or 2021 that Gilroy will be making a Star Wars film or two (I suspect they will shy away from trilogies going forward).

    -Jason "2023 or 24 seems like enough time to let folks get excited about Star Wars again" Evans
    Agreed. Originally Johnson was going to get his own movie(s) totally disconnected from the Skywalker saga. I think it would have been better for everyone if he just did that and wasn't involved in the sequel trilogy, but as you say that ship has sailed and I think we've seen the last of Johnson in the Star Wars universe unfortunately.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I also see people unhappy that JJ "undid" what Rian had done in TLJ...but a lot of that ("no more Jedi", "leave the past behind you") Rian undid himself at the end of the movie. In terms of Rey's parentage, I get it if people don't like her being a Palpatine, but her parents being "nobody" was always a red herring/misdirection. Nothing was undone there, there was always going to be some significant twist to her origins.
    IMO it is very very clear that JJ intentionally undid a ton of stuff in TLJ just for the sake of undoing things and actively tried to make the story discontinuous with TLJ. I understand that many fans view this as a positive thing. Personally, I think there are many ways JJ could have kept the strengths/fun of RoS (and I agree there were good parts) while not actively and intentionally sabotaging TLJ.

    I'm glad you and others liked it. I hope that love sparks more SW movies in the future. But for me, 2019 was the year when 3 of our biggest pop culture TV shows/movie sagas ended, and only 1 out of the 3 hit the mark. The other 2 not only had bad endings but had bad endings in ways that ruined the parts I loved about previous movies/seasons. That's a disappointment.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I really suspect this is not gonna happen. I suspect Rian would be reluctant to return to Star Wars after the way he has been treated. Additionally, I think many die-hard fans would do everything they could to pick apart any movie he made in that universe, and the last thing Disney wants is more fan backlash. If Rian has an idea for a space/sci-fi film, he is better off making it on his own versus trying to shoe-horn it into the Star Wars universe. Disney currently does not have anything in development in terms of Star Wars movies and I suspect we won't get a new film until at least 2023 or 24.

    As for who directs it... while Favreau is a popular choice (and would go well with Kevin Feige taking a larger role in the Star Wars universe on his way to shuffling Kathleen Kennedy to the side) I suspect the next film may be from a name we have not heard very much... Tony Gilroy.

    Right now, Disney has Gilroy working on a Cassian Andor (Diego Luna's character fro Rogue One) series for Disney+. For those of you who do not know, Gilroy was called in to do some rewrites and direct some reshoots for Rogue One when Disney was worried that film was coming off the rails. He is credited with building the truly genuine relationship between Cassian Andor and Jyn Erso (which is a lot of what made that movie so great). If the stuff he does on the Andor series works well, I would not be at all surprised for Disney to announce in late 2020 or 2021 that Gilroy will be making a Star Wars film or two (I suspect they will shy away from trilogies going forward).

    -Jason "2023 or 24 seems like enough time to let folks get excited about Star Wars again" Evans
    They are going to have to work really hard to make Cassian Andor a character I care about.

    Pretty much just a step behind Saw Guerrera as an “end justifies the means” character.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    They are going to have to work really hard to make Cassian Andor a character I care about.

    Pretty much just a step behind Saw Guerrera as an “end justifies the means” character.
    My initial reaction was "well, as long as they have Diego Luna, I'll watch."

    But you have a point: in Rogue One we see Cassian Andor travel an arc from "ends justify the means"--killing the injured imperial spy so Andor can escape with the intel--to something more morally nuanced--not pulling the trigger to kill Galen Erso. By the end, he's sacrificing himself. It's a good arc, played by a very charming actor.

    But then at the end of Rogue One--spoiler alert--he dies. Which means we've seen the interesting portion of his story arc and how it ends. So what's left for a prequel show? It will either show him 1) being an amoral diehard, which is not a great protagonist to root for, or 2) being morally conflicted, which is more interesting, but also changes where he started in Rogue One and undoes his arc.

    So yeah, now I'm not as enthused about this idea.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post
    My initial reaction was "well, as long as they have Diego Luna, I'll watch."

    But you have a point: in Rogue One we see Cassian Andor travel an arc from "ends justify the means"--killing the injured imperial spy so Andor can escape with the intel--to something more morally nuanced--not pulling the trigger to kill Galen Erso. By the end, he's sacrificing himself. It's a good arc, played by a very charming actor.

    But then at the end of Rogue One--spoiler alert--he dies. Which means we've seen the interesting portion of his story arc and how it ends. So what's left for a prequel show? It will either show him 1) being an amoral diehard, which is not a great protagonist to root for, or 2) being morally conflicted, which is more interesting, but also changes where he started in Rogue One and undoes his arc.

    So yeah, now I'm not as enthused about this idea.
    As long as K-2S0 is there I will watch.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post
    My initial reaction was "well, as long as they have Diego Luna, I'll watch."

    But you have a point: in Rogue One we see Cassian Andor travel an arc from "ends justify the means"--killing the injured imperial spy so Andor can escape with the intel--to something more morally nuanced--not pulling the trigger to kill Galen Erso. By the end, he's sacrificing himself. It's a good arc, played by a very charming actor.

    But then at the end of Rogue One--spoiler alert--he dies. Which means we've seen the interesting portion of his story arc and how it ends. So what's left for a prequel show? It will either show him 1) being an amoral diehard, which is not a great protagonist to root for, or 2) being morally conflicted, which is more interesting, but also changes where he started in Rogue One and undoes his arc.

    So yeah, now I'm not as enthused about this idea.
    Maybe not unique to Chuck Wendig, yet Chuck was the first author I read who articulated his intense dislike of prequels for this very reason.

    You already know how the story ends, and if the story was originally told well, there’s really not much to be gained by creating a prequel.

  13. #53
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    I will freely admit that when I heard Disney was making a Cassian Andor show, I thought it was a pretty mediocre idea. I suspect it will be a lot of daring spy missions for the rebellion against the Empire -- think Mission Impossible but in space. There would also be opportunities for Darth Vader and some other classic characters to make appearances as well, which will certainly goose interest.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    Maybe not unique to Chuck Wendig, yet Chuck was the first author I read who articulated his intense dislike of prequels for this very reason.

    You already know how the story ends, and if the story was originally told well, there’s really not much to be gained by creating a prequel.
    From the minute is was announced I knew how Rogue One would end. It didn't stop them from eventually (retooling, reshooting, etc) making a really good movie.

  15. #55

    Horses in Space?

    And can I ask the impertinent question about who brings horses into space, just to ride them into battle against guys with laser guns? Really. Where were they going? Did they bring some space hay and supplies to muck the stalls during transport? Horses are usually tranquilized for big trips; I doubt they were ready for battle right away.

    And what happened to these (poor) animals? Did they all perish when they fell off the ships when they rolled over? That was beyond hokey.

    Every hoof would break on that metal surface. Horses can't run on solid surfaces without sustaining soft tissue damage. Of course, these could be space horses with special cleats for holding onto sheet metal.

    That was a bunch of horse cr..

    All seriousness aside, I enjoyed the movie, but when I saw this, I felt the franchise had jumped the shark.

    Larry
    DevilHorse
    Last edited by DevilHorse; 12-28-2019 at 09:31 PM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilHorse View Post
    And can I ask the impertinent question about who brings horses into space, just to ride them into battle against guys with laser guns? Really. Where were they going? Did they bring some space hay and supplies to muck the stalls during transport? Horses are usually tranquilized for big trips; I doubt they were ready for battle right away.

    And what happened to these (poor) animals? Did they all perish when they fell off the ships when they rolled over? That was beyond hokey.

    Every hoof would break on that metal surface. Horses can't run on solid surfaces without sustaining soft tissue damage. Of course, these could be space horses with special cleats for holding onto sheet metal

    All seriousness aside, I enjoyed the movie, but when I saw this, I felt the franchise had jumped the shark.

    Larry
    DevilHorse
    From my second favorite movie. Hugh Grant and horses in space.

    https://youtu.be/-xQ5nH_-yyQ

    (Couldn’t make it a link. Sorry.)
    Last edited by duke74; 12-29-2019 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Tried to make the link work.

  17. #57
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    What is so derogatory about being a spice trader, anyway?
    "We're only tourists in this life
    Only tourists but the view is nice"

    -- David Byrne

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    What is so derogatory about being a spice trader, anyway?
    I believe Poe was called a spice "runner".

    I take that "running" something is illegal.
    Hard at work making beautiful things.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilHorse View Post
    And can I ask the impertinent question about who brings horses into space, just to ride them into battle against guys with laser guns? Really. Where were they going? Did they bring some space hay and supplies to muck the stalls during transport? Horses are usually tranquilized for big trips; I doubt they were ready for battle right away.
    Two explanations: Horses instead of some kind of speeder to avoid electronic jamming (stated in the movie), they were also planning on a ground (land) assault where horses would be more practical but then discovered they needed to destroy the tracker/locator beacon on the ship so they landed there instead.


    And what happened to these (poor) animals? Did they all perish when they fell off the ships when they rolled over? That was beyond hokey.
    I had the exact same question. I'm assuming they all died, but I suppose its possible they returned to the ship safely before it took off. Someone call PETA.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    What is so derogatory about being a spice trader, anyway?
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I believe Poe was called a spice "runner".

    I take that "running" something is illegal.
    "Spice" in the Star Wars universe is a drug (mined at the spice mines of Kessel, perhaps other places). Substitute heroin for spice to get the real world equivalent...not something people would be proud of.

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