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  1. #1
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    Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker (SPOILER THREAD!)

    Be warned, this thread will discuss plot points and stuff that is clearly spoilers from the new Star Wars film.

    It is highly recommended that you see the film first before reading this thread.

    You have been warned...

    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  2. #2
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    Whew... where do I begin.

    1) The Emperor - It is just offensive that JJ thought he could put Palps in the opening crawl and we would just accept it. Hey JJ, remember the main character from the first 6 films, Anakin/Darth Vader? He sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. In the space of 2 sentences of yellow text you made his sacrifice meaningless. How can JJ just bring Palps back and not give us any explanation or backstory? What has Palps been doing for the past few decades? Who were the 1000+ Sith guys just watching the final battle (I'd say they were Sith ghosts, but when Palps dies the ghosts physically moved so they are actually there)? Where did all those Final Order ships come from? And don't even get me started on Palps' overall plan...

    Actually, lets do talk about Palps plan. He hangs out on the hidden Sith planet for 30 years or so with his giant armada of planet killing ships. He invented Snoke to rule the galaxy in his place (why?!?!). He gets discovered by Kylo and then brings the First Order under his wing like the old Empire. He orders the First Order and Kylo to find and kill Rey... even though what he really wanted was for Rey to find her way to him so she could kill him and his spirit could inhabit her body. Do I have that right? Then, when Kylo shows up he realizes that Kylo and Rey are Force married, or something like that, and he sucks their energy to bring himself back to life (wasn't he already alive?). I can't even begin to imagine JJ pitched this to Kathleen Kennedy and she said, "yeah, that works!"

    2) The Force - I'm not sure what JJ was thinking but every time he just needed something to happen, he would invent a new Force power for Rey and Kylo to use. Healing? No problem. Teleporting objects across space? Piece of cake. Amazon is going to set up a new delivery service where Rey is in the warehouse, Kylo comes to your home, and she just hands him whatever you ordered. I don't even begin to understand this Force Dyad thing that Palps suddenly started rambling about in the final 15 minutes of the film. What was that?!!? The heroes of Star Wars are people accomplishing great things by force of will, a little luck, and great faith in each other... they are not gods who can rely on magic to do whatever they want.

    3) Fan Service - Look, let's give Chewie a medal. Look, let's have two no-name female characters kiss. Look, Lando is back (does he do anything meaningful?). Look, Rey has really important parents because the Force only belongs to a few families of people in the entire universe and no one else gets to play with it (hey Rian Johnson, <bleep> you). Ugh... was there a single brave choice made in this film?

    4) The Sith Map thingie - Did we really spend close to an hour of this film trying to find a magical triangle? Are you kidding me? Supposedly Luke spent years looking for it (because he suspected Palps was still alive or something?) and Rey just stumbles across it in like 2 days. This probably drove me crazy the most of anything in the movie... every time our heroes needed something it would almost magically appear at their feet. It was offensive storytelling... an abomination. A high school English teacher would have sent this script back if a student turned it in.

    5) Kylo/Ben - Why did he turn from the Dark Side? Was it just because Rey healed him? We spent 2 movies with his father and his uncle/mentor quite literally giving their lives because they believed in him and then he just turned on a dime for no discernible reason. JJ was not satisfied with making Darth's death meaningless, he had to do it to Han and Luke too.

    6) The End - When Kylo died after reviving Rey I laughed out loud... really loudly. It was just sooooo awful.

    Ok, that's enough for now... so frustrating.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    2) The Force - I'm not sure what JJ was thinking but every time he just needed something to happen, he would invent a new Force power for Rey and Kylo to use. Healing? No problem.
    I realize this wasn't a major part of your complaint, but force healing isn't new to Star Wars

    We've seen it before in the Clone Wars TV show, several supporting stories (books, etc), and (theorized but I don't think confirmed) in A New Hope! It is also discussed in Revenge of the Sith (this is the main way Palps gets Anakin under his thumb). For something that ties together all living things in the universe I don't think that it is particularly

    Also
    Spoiler!

  4. #4
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    Rey giving Ben the light saber was a great payoff for all of the force bonding

  5. #5
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    Alright, overall thoughts - I enjoyed it for what it was. A safe, fun, Star Wars film. I was entertained. I expect the general movie goer will have a great time.

    My biggest issues:

    Palpatine being back out of nowhere and with no explanation. We saw him die in Episode VI. I need at least some information on how he came back and how he was 'responsible' for Snoke.

    Rey being a Palpatine. I was fine with her being a nobody. I thought it made sense. I could get on board with her being a Palpatine, but not how it was done. I'm supposed to believe that Palpatine had a son and we never saw that before? Come on.

    Finn just randomly has the force all of a sudden? How does that happen? And he never tells Rey about it after hinting at it the entire film?

    The movie needed room to breathe. It's clear that JJ stuffed some stuff in this one that he wanted in Episode VIII. Either extend the run time another thirty minutes or cut some things out. You could feel that it was rushed.

    We never really got a great saber battle. Maybe the throne room scene from TLJ just set my standards too high, but the water battle just didn't do a whole lot for me.

    There were parts I certainly enjoyed. Seeing some new things done with the force, the bets movie for Rey yet, Poe had some great moments, and the payoff with the force connection (passing the light saber to Kylo. We saw his hand get wet in TLJ when Rey was on the island) was cool to see.

    I'll see it again in theater a few times. I'll see if my opinion changes then.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by luburch View Post
    My biggest issues:

    Palpatine being back out of nowhere and with no explanation. We saw him die in Episode VI. I need at least some information on how he came back and how he was 'responsible' for Snoke.
    So, what you are saying is that the central focus of the film... the driver of the entire plot... was inexplicable and made no sense. Yup, that was my take as well. Grrrrrr.

    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    Rey giving Ben the light saber was a great payoff for all of the force bonding
    Yup... and Ben really needed that light saber because he had thrown his original one away for no reason while on the wreckage of the death star. So, he tosses a force-user's most valuable weapon into the ocean (by the way, how did he get off the death star wreckage?) and then immediately goes to face his most deadly foe. smart thinking!

    Like almost everything in this movie, stuff happens not because it makes sense but because JJ wanted it to happen that way so he could give us fan service and create meaningless moments.

    Sorry... I need to calm down. I really am glad others could watch this film and not see the stuff I saw.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    So, what you are saying is that the central focus of the film... the driver of the entire plot... was inexplicable and made no sense. Yup, that was my take as well. Grrrrrr.
    In fairness, that describes both of the other movies in the sequel trilogy so...pretty much in par with TFA and TLJ there. Not defending the practice, just pointing out it isn't new to this particular trilogy (that has been one of the central complaints of both previous films for a lot of fans).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    In fairness, that describes both of the other movies in the sequel trilogy so...pretty much in par with TFA and TLJ there. Not defending the practice, just pointing out it isn't new to this particular trilogy (that has been one of the central complaints of both previous films for a lot of fans).
    Did TFA and TLJ not make sense? They aren't without their criticisms, but I think they were thought out and explained at least.

  9. #9
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    Several Thoughts

    I thought it was good -- not great, but good. Upon reflection, I actually think the movie's better than I thought last night, but what's weighing it down are the expectations it can't avoid being the "End of the Saga" and all as much as anything. It's not a perfect movie by a long shot though, and the failure here, I think, was that TLJ did little to progress the actual plot of the trilogy, it seems.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Whew... where do I begin.

    1) The Emperor - It is just offensive that JJ thought he could put Palps in the opening crawl and we would just accept it. Hey JJ, remember the main character from the first 6 films, Anakin/Darth Vader? He sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. In the space of 2 sentences of yellow text you made his sacrifice meaningless. How can JJ just bring Palps back and not give us any explanation or backstory? What has Palps been doing for the past few decades? Who were the 1000+ Sith guys just watching the final battle (I'd say they were Sith ghosts, but when Palps dies the ghosts physically moved so they are actually there)? Where did all those Final Order ships come from? And don't even get me started on Palps' overall plan...

    Actually, lets do talk about Palps plan. He hangs out on the hidden Sith planet for 30 years or so with his giant armada of planet killing ships. He invented Snoke to rule the galaxy in his place (why?!?!). He gets discovered by Kylo and then brings the First Order under his wing like the old Empire. He orders the First Order and Kylo to find and kill Rey... even though what he really wanted was for Rey to find her way to him so she could kill him and his spirit could inhabit her body. Do I have that right? Then, when Kylo shows up he realizes that Kylo and Rey are Force married, or something like that, and he sucks their energy to bring himself back to life (wasn't he already alive?). I can't even begin to imagine JJ pitched this to Kathleen Kennedy and she said, "yeah, that works!"
    I get where you are coming from with this, and it's kind of the central criticism of the whole movie for me. It was too darned rushed. There was too much in the movie. So you either needed to edit some of the crap out -- but that would have required completely reworking this central plot -- or it should have been two 2 hour movies, not one 2.5 hour one. End Movie 1 with Rey winning the duel on the old Death Star. Operating in one, 2.5 hour movie, they got hemmed in because for all Last Jedi did, it didn't move THIS plot line (or any plot line really) toward the finale. Between contracts and negative reviews for TLJ and Solo there's no way they were getting two movies to finish this. So we were stuck with Palpatine back in two sentences in the opening crawl. It did need more development and seeds of this spread across the prior two movies would have been helpful. Note: Did they really not storyboard the big points, at least, of the movies from the start before Episode 7? If not, everyone involved is kind of a moron.

    One positive of Palpatine being involved? Everyone in the full theater I was in last night made an audible reaction when Rey used Force Lightening.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    2) The Force - I'm not sure what JJ was thinking but every time he just needed something to happen, he would invent a new Force power for Rey and Kylo to use. Healing? No problem. Teleporting objects across space? Piece of cake. Amazon is going to set up a new delivery service where Rey is in the warehouse, Kylo comes to your home, and she just hands him whatever you ordered. I don't even begin to understand this Force Dyad thing that Palps suddenly started rambling about in the final 15 minutes of the film. What was that?!!? The heroes of Star Wars are people accomplishing great things by force of will, a little luck, and great faith in each other... they are not gods who can rely on magic to do whatever they want.
    I disagree, more or less, here. TLJ did a really good job setting up that the connection between Kylo and Rey was unique and was a stronger bond than we'd seen before, so that playing into Palpatine's full resurrection didn't bother me. The idea that they could pass objects between one and another and could effect each others realities when connected was set up and done in TLJ. Didn't some object pass between Rey and Kylo when they connected in Luke's hut in TLJ? That, as both became stronger, they'd better understand manipulation of the connection again made sense. Force healing might be new to the cinematic universe, but not to the universe as a whole. The only point where I wondered about the power of the force being used was the battle over the ship we thought Chewie was on -- uncool and unnecessary bait and switch there -- and the Force Lightening sort of explained that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    3) Fan Service - Look, let's give Chewie a medal. Look, let's have two no-name female characters kiss. Look, Lando is back (does he do anything meaningful?). Look, Rey has really important parents because the Force only belongs to a few families of people in the entire universe and no one else gets to play with it (hey Rian Johnson, <bleep> you). Ugh... was there a single brave choice made in this film?
    Agreed, and the **** to Rian Johnson by building almost nothing off of TLJ made this movie too congested to work as one film.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    4) The Sith Map thingie - Did we really spend close to an hour of this film trying to find a magical triangle? Are you kidding me? Supposedly Luke spent years looking for it (because he suspected Palps was still alive or something?) and Rey just stumbles across it in like 2 days. This probably drove me crazy the most of anything in the movie... every time our heroes needed something it would almost magically appear at their feet. It was offensive storytelling... an abomination. A high school English teacher would have sent this script back if a student turned it in.

    5) Kylo/Ben - Why did he turn from the Dark Side? Was it just because Rey healed him? We spent 2 movies with his father and his uncle/mentor quite literally giving their lives because they believed in him and then he just turned on a dime for no discernible reason. JJ was not satisfied with making Darth's death meaningless, he had to do it to Han and Luke too.
    I thought the Sith Map Thingie might be a Sith Holocron, something with some connection to the larger universe. Had they called it that, it might have helped make a little more sense I think.. That said, the speed with which she found the wayfinder was only necessitated by the silly plot construction that the Final Order was to begin in 8 hours. There was no need to compress the on the screen time in that way.

    That Kylo was conflicted is nothing new. I thought he turned back to good because Leia reached out to him finally at the end, and he knew she'd passed. Add on to that Rey had struck a mortal blow, save him, and told him that she wanted to take Ben's hand -- I think that's when she told him that -- turned him. His connection to Rey was pretty clearly stronger than his connection to anything else. He'd killed Snoke to rule with her. He'd intended to do the same to Palpatine. Him knowing that Ben could be with Rey, along with everything else, caused him to turn. Again, that could have been made more clear and more powerful if the movie wasn't so compressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    6) The End - When Kylo died after reviving Rey I laughed out loud... really loudly. It was just sooooo awful.

    Ok, that's enough for now... so frustrating.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    I get where you are coming from with this, and it's kind of the central criticism of the whole movie for me. It was too darned rushed. There was too much in the movie. So you either needed to edit some of the crap out -- but that would have required completely reworking this central plot -- or it should have been two 2 hour movies, not one 2.5 hour one.
    I had the same thought - 2 movies. Although that would ruin the whole trilogy of trilogies thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    One positive of Palpatine being involved? Everyone in the full theater I was in last night made an audible reaction when Rey used Force Lightening.
    Yes! Same thing when I saw it (although 1/3 full theater).

  11. #11
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    Screencrush has a list of 10 key questions from RoS that largely mimics a lot of what I was wondering about at the start of this thread:

    https://screencrush.com/unanswered-q...-of-skywalker/
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Whew... where do I begin.

    1) The Emperor - It is just offensive that JJ thought he could put Palps in the opening crawl and we would just accept it. Hey JJ, remember the main character from the first 6 films, Anakin/Darth Vader? He sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. In the space of 2 sentences of yellow text you made his sacrifice meaningless. How can JJ just bring Palps back and not give us any explanation or backstory? What has Palps been doing for the past few decades? Who were the 1000+ Sith guys just watching the final battle (I'd say they were Sith ghosts, but when Palps dies the ghosts physically moved so they are actually there)? Where did all those Final Order ships come from? And don't even get me started on Palps' overall plan...

    Actually, lets do talk about Palps plan. He hangs out on the hidden Sith planet for 30 years or so with his giant armada of planet killing ships. He invented Snoke to rule the galaxy in his place (why?!?!). He gets discovered by Kylo and then brings the First Order under his wing like the old Empire. He orders the First Order and Kylo to find and kill Rey... even though what he really wanted was for Rey to find her way to him so she could kill him and his spirit could inhabit her body. Do I have that right? Then, when Kylo shows up he realizes that Kylo and Rey are Force married, or something like that, and he sucks their energy to bring himself back to life (wasn't he already alive?). I can't even begin to imagine JJ pitched this to Kathleen Kennedy and she said, "yeah, that works!"

    2) The Force - I'm not sure what JJ was thinking but every time he just needed something to happen, he would invent a new Force power for Rey and Kylo to use. Healing? No problem. Teleporting objects across space? Piece of cake. Amazon is going to set up a new delivery service where Rey is in the warehouse, Kylo comes to your home, and she just hands him whatever you ordered. I don't even begin to understand this Force Dyad thing that Palps suddenly started rambling about in the final 15 minutes of the film. What was that?!!? The heroes of Star Wars are people accomplishing great things by force of will, a little luck, and great faith in each other... they are not gods who can rely on magic to do whatever they want.

    3) Fan Service - Look, let's give Chewie a medal. Look, let's have two no-name female characters kiss. Look, Lando is back (does he do anything meaningful?). Look, Rey has really important parents because the Force only belongs to a few families of people in the entire universe and no one else gets to play with it (hey Rian Johnson, <bleep> you). Ugh... was there a single brave choice made in this film?

    4) The Sith Map thingie - Did we really spend close to an hour of this film trying to find a magical triangle? Are you kidding me? Supposedly Luke spent years looking for it (because he suspected Palps was still alive or something?) and Rey just stumbles across it in like 2 days. This probably drove me crazy the most of anything in the movie... every time our heroes needed something it would almost magically appear at their feet. It was offensive storytelling... an abomination. A high school English teacher would have sent this script back if a student turned it in.

    5) Kylo/Ben - Why did he turn from the Dark Side? Was it just because Rey healed him? We spent 2 movies with his father and his uncle/mentor quite literally giving their lives because they believed in him and then he just turned on a dime for no discernible reason. JJ was not satisfied with making Darth's death meaningless, he had to do it to Han and Luke too.

    6) The End - When Kylo died after reviving Rey I laughed out loud... really loudly. It was just sooooo awful.

    Ok, that's enough for now... so frustrating.
    I will give my simple responses to these points. For background, I saw the original SW when I was 11 and it changed my life. Everything after that though has sorta been like James Bond films — I go for the fun and don’t take it very seriously. (George Lucas said in 1977 that he made the first SW “Episode IV” because he wanted to give the sense of joining in the middle of the old Flash Gordon serials — the whole “middle trilogy” thing grew after the fact. These are intended to be escapist pulp fiction stories and that is the mindset I take into the theatre for these).

    1. Emperor. None of the Emperor thing bothers me. The personification of the Dark Side still exists? Why would we think that would not be true? Darth Maul survived in Solo, that is even less likely. I understand the questions about the back story and logic you raise and they are valid points. But this is not Shakespeare, it is a teenage escapist movie. They gloss over back story to get to the action, something I wish the prequels had done frankly.

    2. Force. I do not get the whole force thing that allows folks in different places to be together, but hasn’t the whole final three done that? Seems we burned that bridge years ago. I don’t like it but it’s part of the story now for better or worse.

    3. Fan thing. Let’s face it, putting C3PO, Chewie and R2D2 in any of the last three movies is just fan fluff. It’s part of the cheese that comes with the pie. I don’t see the issue of Rey’s parents remaining “nobodies” or not as a social statement — it’s just a plot point.

    4. Map thing. Again, it’s a plot point on a thinly-plotted action film. I do not see this as more contrived than any Bond film, any Marvel film, or any DC Comic film. It’s the genre.

    5. Kylo/Ben. Not sure why anyone is surprised that the bad guy killed lots of good guys, then gets redeemed in the end. That’s certainly to be expected in about any movie and has already happened in this series once. Unfortunately, everything can not be Breaking Bad (though I wish it was).

    6. The end. We had different expectations as to what this film would be I guess.

    Note that NONE of this is to say that it was a great film, or that a serious critical analysis would not agree with you. For folks like me who are not expecting Citizen Cane, just hoping for better than your average adventure flick — this film is not great but far from horrible. Certainly when compared to the three prequels or even the first two postquel entries.

    (Joker was much better this fall, as was Jojo Rabbit and Knives Out. Cannot wait for 1917. John Wick 3 was better too, as silly as that was).
    Last edited by OldPhiKap; 12-24-2019 at 10:52 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Darth Maul survived in Solo, that is even less likely.
    Not that the general audience would known but if you had young kids a decade ago or are super nerdy (and I use that in a complimentary way) it was expanded in Clone Wars and Rebels.

    Spoiler!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    Not that the general audience would known but if you had young kids a decade ago or are super nerdy (and I use that in a complimentary way) it was expanded in Clone Wars and Rebels.

    Spoiler!
    Tatoonie? There are so many possibilities!

  15. #15
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    Ok, so I really enjoyed this movie. I would say easily a top 4 Star Wars movie, although I need to see it again (probably on the 1st) to properly get a grasp on things. I thought it was fun, the characters all came off well, and ultimately it felt very Star Wars. I was disappointed because I was spoiled on the Rey shooting Force Lightning thing and thought it would ruin the surprise. I was still surprised. I can see how some of the more mystical presentations of the Force might have been off-putting for some, but people who watched The Clone Wars or Rebels are already familiar with some of that stuff with Jedi/Sith temples and what not. I was never a real fan of the Ben/Rey Force bond thing from the beginning, but given that it was already established as a thing I thought the movie did a good job executing it and by the end I had stopped rolling my eyes and enjoyed it. I had also been spoiled on the Rey/Ben kiss. I thought it was going to be terrible...I still didn't like it but it wasn't nearly as bad/cringey as I assumed it would be. I was surprised and a little disappointed when Ben died, but ultimately I think he kind of had to. His redemption arc kind of needed to be "died a hero" because, like Vader, people weren't exactly going to be welcoming him with open arms after his change of heart. The fact that Rey never constructed her own lightsaber was driving me crazy, until...(I do kind of wish Lea's lightsaber had been a color other than blue).

    As far as the criticism for re-introducing Palpatine, I actually didn't think it was as jarring as people made it out to be. It wasn't as though it was treated as a given, even in the movie people were like "wait, what? He's dead!" I also think it makes some sense. Sidious used the ability to overcome death to tempt Anakin to the Dark Side, and then was like "oops I don't actually know it maybe we can figure it out." It would be perfectly within character for it to turn out that he did in fact know how to overcome death, and he just didn't use it to help Anakin save Padme because why would he have? Padme dying was part of Palpatine getting Anakin to permanently become Vader, his right hand. I ultimately had no problem with this, despite going in thinking that I would. I didn't love the visual aesthetics of some of the Palpatine scenes, but it wasn't a huge issue for me.

    The other big criticism, "retconning" Rey's parentage...it wasn't a retcon! Rey's parents literally being nobody was always a red herring...people were saying as much as soon as TLJ came out. We saw them fly away on a space ship, so "junk traders who died in a pauper's grave on Jakku" seemed obviously false. There was always going to be something interesting about Rey's parents or lineage.

    It did feel like the movie packed a lot in. My argument is that, well, it had too. Sure, characters were challenged, but nothing really happened. There was no real story set up, the end of Last Jedi could have just as easily been the start of the first movie in the trilogy. I felt like the Resistance literally having their consoles set up outside with no buildings was a little over the top in terms of them being on their last legs, but that isn't really a big deal.

    Oh. I wasn't a big fan of hyperspace skipping, but whatever.

    Remaining questions:
    Who TF are the Knights of Ren and what exactly do they do?
    How did someone get Anakin's lightsaber back from Bespin?
    Where the heck did Luke's green saber go?
    Why was Poe flying with R2 instead of his trusty BB8?

    Things I want:
    Some show/miniseries where we get to see what the Knights of Ren were about
    Ditto for Luke's story between RotJ and when his Jedi Academy is destroyed
    Something live-action between Revenge of the Sith and New Hope where we can see Vader go HAM like he did at the end of Rogue One

    I'm pretty sure I had a bunch more things I wanted to say/ask while I was watching and immediately after the movie, but there's so much going on! I'll probably follow this up with a post responding to some other commenters.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by luburch View Post
    Palpatine being back out of nowhere and with no explanation. We saw him die in Episode VI. I need at least some information on how he came back and how he was 'responsible' for Snoke.
    When Sidious talked to Anakin about overcoming death, he also mentioned the ability to manipulate the Force to create life. Palpatine knew (or, in the time between movies, learned while on the Sith homeworld) how to do this and created Snoke. Think of Snoke as basically a Force golem or something.

    Finn just randomly has the force all of a sudden? How does that happen? And he never tells Rey about it after hinting at it the entire film?
    I think it might have been established in some other media (comics or something) prior to this movie that Finn was Force sensitive. I didn't read any of that material, but I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned when I was reading stuff online somewhere. Not that the typical moviegoer would know that, so it would still be a surprise. You could probably see Finn wielding a lightsaber in TFA as a bit of foreshadowing there.


    Quote Originally Posted by crimsondevil View Post
    I had the same thought - 2 movies. Although that would ruin the whole trilogy of trilogies thing.
    It definitely could have been two movies, and probably should have been, but we got TLJ instead. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine if that was worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Loved the movie. But it made me hate Rian Johnson more than I hate Jar-Jar.

    I am doomed to wonder how great this trilogy COULD have been if JJ had been able to do all 3.
    I didn't want to quote the whole post, but I thought the whole post was spot-on. Very much my take on things as well. I also feel like people are simultaneously criticizing JJ for tossing out things that Rian did in TLJ, while also criticizing him for adhering to other things also set up by Rian in TLJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    "I want the four-hour version of this film. I’m told one exists — a long, possibly clumsy cut. But I want it. Because there’s so much missing here."


    I'd buy that for a dollar!


    I REALLY want to see all four hours. PLEASE!
    I would buy that for at least two dollars. Rarely do I think a director's cut improves on the theatrical release, but this might be an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I will give my simple responses to these points. For background, I saw the original SW when I was 11 and it changed my life. Everything after that though has sorta been like James Bond films — I go for the fun and don’t take it very seriously. (George Lucas said in 1977 that he made the first SW “Episode IV” because he wanted to give the sense of joining in the middle of the old Flash Gordon serials — the whole “middle trilogy” thing grew after the fact. These are intended to be escapist pulp fiction stories and that is the mindset I take into the theatre for these).
    This gets to the heart of the disagreement between folks who loved TLJ and folks who loved basically all the movies except​ TLJ.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I will give my simple responses to these points. For background, I saw the original SW when I was 11 and it changed my life. Everything after that though has sorta been like James Bond films — I go for the fun and don’t take it very seriously. (George Lucas said in 1977 that he made the first SW “Episode IV” because he wanted to give the sense of joining in the middle of the old Flash Gordon serials — the whole “middle trilogy” thing grew after the fact. These are intended to be escapist pulp fiction stories and that is the mindset I take into the theatre for these).

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post


    This gets to the heart of the disagreement between folks who loved TLJ and folks who loved basically all the movies except​ TLJ.

    I am going to dump on Rian Johnson again for misunderstanding this. He wanted to take Star Wars in a new direction, to put his stamp on it, to make it "his."

    Many of us have been Star Wars fans for 40 years. We consider it "ours." JJ understood that and gave it back to us.


    When/where can we talk about "Knives Out" spoilers so I can carve me some RJ off the bone. Very enjoyable film, worth seeing, but oh boy not great nor nearly as clever as it wanted to be. But I can forgive Knives Out, and even say I gladly spent the money to see it. It was HIS movie to do with what he wanted. He should NOT have been given that freedom with TLJ.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    He should NOT have been given that freedom with TLJ.
    This line is why I am moving more and more into the "Kathleen Kennedy really messed up Star Wars" camp from the JJ/Rian screwed it up perspective. It was her job to have an overarching vision and guide the directors so three different directors (which is how it was originally going to go until Colin Trevorrow made Book of Henry and Disney panicked at giving him Star Wars IX) could create something that fit together thematically and narratively. She utterly failed.

    -Jason "if you are going to bring Palps back, leave us a breadcrumb or something in VII and VIII" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    This line is why I am moving more and more into the "Kathleen Kennedy really messed up Star Wars" camp from the JJ/Rian screwed it up perspective. It was her job to have an overarching vision and guide the directors so three different directors (which is how it was originally going to go until Colin Trevorrow made Book of Henry and Disney panicked at giving him Star Wars IX) could create something that fit together thematically and narratively. She utterly failed.

    -Jason "if you are going to bring Palps back, leave us a breadcrumb or something in VII and VIII" Evans
    I agree that the problem was with Kennedy/the overall vision (although Abrams and Johnson are intelligent people who are capable of mapping out a story themselves without being forced to by Disney). Abrams and Rian share some blame.

    Force Awakens:
    JJ did a great job introducing new characters in Force Awakens. Every single new character was a hit, IMO.
    JJ did a great job making a fun, enjoyable, "Star Wars vibe" movie.
    JJ did a terrible job setting up the story for the new trilogy.

    Last Jedi:
    Rian did a great job of challenging the characters and taking things in a new direction/showing growth.
    Rian did a terrible job of making the characters remotely likeable or relatable while they were being challenged.
    Rian did a terrible job making a fun, Star Wars-esque feeling movie. (Too much jarring slapstick comedy/comic book bravado-style banter, little to no sense of wonder)
    Rian did a terrible job of leaving any real place for the story to go with only one movie remaining (no clear villain, no real sense of direction)

    I also see people unhappy that JJ "undid" what Rian had done in TLJ...but a lot of that ("no more Jedi", "leave the past behind you") Rian undid himself at the end of the movie. In terms of Rey's parentage, I get it if people don't like her being a Palpatine, but her parents being "nobody" was always a red herring/misdirection. Nothing was undone there, there was always going to be some significant twist to her origins.

    FWIW, this was my take immediately after seeing Last Jedi:

    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Maybe part of the problem is that it feels like there is too much to wrap up in one more movie. Having both movies take place in such close proximity (time wise) was a mistake in my opinion (a lot of the personal connections are hard to believe because none of these characters have spent any significant time together), and for what it appears Rian is trying to do I really think it should have all happened in VII with two more movies to expand and explore. It is possible I am wrong, but to me it is hard to imagine this will be tied up properly in one more installment after taking such a hard right, and when looking at it as a trilogy it already lacks an overarching climax.
    I think I was mostly correct, but I think JJ ended up doing a pretty good job making a really good closing chapter in spite of the problems with the first two movies. Definitely the best movie of the sequels for me.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I also see people unhappy that JJ "undid" what Rian had done in TLJ...but a lot of that ("no more Jedi", "leave the past behind you") Rian undid himself at the end of the movie. In terms of Rey's parentage, I get it if people don't like her being a Palpatine, but her parents being "nobody" was always a red herring/misdirection. Nothing was undone there, there was always going to be some significant twist to her origins.
    IMO it is very very clear that JJ intentionally undid a ton of stuff in TLJ just for the sake of undoing things and actively tried to make the story discontinuous with TLJ. I understand that many fans view this as a positive thing. Personally, I think there are many ways JJ could have kept the strengths/fun of RoS (and I agree there were good parts) while not actively and intentionally sabotaging TLJ.

    I'm glad you and others liked it. I hope that love sparks more SW movies in the future. But for me, 2019 was the year when 3 of our biggest pop culture TV shows/movie sagas ended, and only 1 out of the 3 hit the mark. The other 2 not only had bad endings but had bad endings in ways that ruined the parts I loved about previous movies/seasons. That's a disappointment.

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