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  1. #81
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    Feb 2007
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    Deeetroit City
    I was impressed with the number of blocked shots, it looked like most came from help rotation. THREE from Hurt.

    Many have expected Wendell Moore to be the second coming of Chris Carrawell, who happens to be one of my all time favorite players (he did a great job defending Tim freakin' Duncan for goodness sakes!).

    But we all tend to remember Senior or Junior year Carrawell and not Freshman Carrawell. Although Freshman Carrawell did block Senior Duncan to beat #2 ranked Wake Forest on the road and win the ACC, that end of season game was his break-out. Moore may still develop in a similar fashion. He's got a coaching staff that can help.

    What we do have is Senior Jack White, who is filling that Senior Carrawell type role, the guy that does the things necessary to win. He seems undersized to be battling in the paint, but he always seems to come up with the ball or a block.

  2. #82

    Vernon Carey

    I listened to a few minutes of the 'Locked on Spartans' podcast this morning, and heard the host make the following remarks about Vernon Carey:

    "This may seem like an insane thing to say, but it's not, I promise you . . . Vernon Carey is not that good at basketball [laughs]. He's very large. He's very strong and can do some stuff in the post, sure. And I shouldn't say he's not good at basketball. I should say he's not good at basketball in 2019 . . . he's probably the 4th best prospect on [Duke's] team . . . or 3rd best . . . . Vernon Carey doesn't have a diverse game. He's a very static player, and I'm using 'static' as in the opposite of 'dynamic.' . . . [Carey] with his footwork is not someone who should dominate Michigan St."

    Carey is also described as 'lumbering' and someone that any higher-level teams NCAA team [presumably like Michigan State?] should be able to run off the floor, either by getting him in quick foul trouble, or exposing his weaknesses to the point where he must be benched.

    Is this an accurate assessment of Carey? The impression I get from K is that Carey is a good basketball player and a goodathlete, who is in the midst of learning to play the center position, since he did not do much of that in high school. The Sparty host seems to see Carey's raw post play as his primary skillset, while discounting any idea that he actually could be better (or more experienced) in other facets of the game.
    Last edited by duke4ever19; 12-04-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  3. #83
    Great defensive performance, especially with all the 1st half fouls. Javin's best game so far and J.White and JGold were excellent. Tre and Vernon were like All Americans and Baker and Hurt did a good job. If we can get Wendell and AOC playing like I know they can,and Stanley back, I can see this team doing some great things this season, Great win!

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by duke4ever19 View Post
    I listened to a few minutes of the 'Locked on Spartans' podcast this morning, and heard the host make the following remarks about Vernon Carey:

    "This may seem like an insane thing to say, but it's not, I promise you . . . Vernon Carey is not that good at basketball [laughs]. He's very large. He's very strong and can do some stuff in the post, sure. And I shouldn't say he's not good at basketball. I should say he's not good at basketball in 2019 . . . he's probably the 4th best prospect on [Duke's] team . . . or 3rd best . . . . Vernon Carey doesn't have a diverse game. He's a very static player, and I'm using 'static' as in the opposite of 'dynamic.' . . . [Carey] with his footwork is not someone who should dominate Michigan St."

    Carey is also described as 'lumbering' and someone that any higher-level teams NCAA team [presumably like Michigan State?] should be able to run off the floor, either by getting him in quick foul trouble, or exposing his weaknesses to the point where he must be benched.

    Is this an accurate assessment of Carey? The impression I get from K is that Carey is a good basketball player who is in the midst of learning to play the center position, since he did not do much of that in high school. The Sparty host seems to see Carey's raw post play as his primary skillset, while discounting any idea that he actually could be better (or more experienced) in other facets of the game.
    The sour grapes on this are just so, so laughable. Carey routinely sealed his man off in the post. He's really good at it. And it's not just that he's big; It's a skill. It's not raw. He went up against one of the biggest front lines in college, Kansas, in his first NCAA game and came away looking like the best post player on the floor. None of the MSU bigs could stop him from sealing them in the post. So if that's "raw," then they are soft and unskilled. Oh, and he casually drained a 3 and is shooting 80% from behind the arc on the season.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    Okafor
    Bagley
    Carter

    Apologies if I am missing someone who should be included in the conversation.
    Mason Plumlee's 2013 season was pretty darn good. 17.1 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 59.9% from the field.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I was impressed with the number of blocked shots, it looked like most came from help rotation. THREE from Hurt.

    Many have expected Wendell Moore to be the second coming of Chris Carrawell, who happens to be one of my all time favorite players (he did a great job defending Tim freakin' Duncan for goodness sakes!).

    But we all tend to remember Senior or Junior year Carrawell and not Freshman Carrawell. Although Freshman Carrawell did block Senior Duncan to beat #2 ranked Wake Forest on the road and win the ACC, that end of season game was his break-out. Moore may still develop in a similar fashion. He's got a coaching staff that can help.

    What we do have is Senior Jack White, who is filling that Senior Carrawell type role, the guy that does the things necessary to win. He seems undersized to be battling in the paint, but he always seems to come up with the ball or a block.
    Tim Duncan scored 26 points in Wake's game against Duke in which Carrawell started at the 5.

    Carrawell shutting down Duncan in that game is an urban myth.

    Pet peeve.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Mason Plumlee's 2013 season was pretty darn good. 17.1 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 59.9% from the field.
    I almost edited my original post to include Mason.

    It’s idle fan speculation, and still a bit of fun.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by duke4ever19 View Post
    I listened to a few minutes of the 'Locked on Spartans' podcast this morning, and heard the host make the following remarks about Vernon Carey:

    "This may seem like an insane thing to say, but it's not, I promise you . . . Vernon Carey is not that good at basketball [laughs]. He's very large. He's very strong and can do some stuff in the post, sure. And I shouldn't say he's not good at basketball. I should say he's not good at basketball in 2019 . . . he's probably the 4th best prospect on [Duke's] team . . . or 3rd best . . . . Vernon Carey doesn't have a diverse game. He's a very static player, and I'm using 'static' as in the opposite of 'dynamic.' . . . [Carey] with his footwork is not someone who should dominate Michigan St."

    Carey is also described as 'lumbering' and someone that any higher-level teams NCAA team [presumably like Michigan State?] should be able to run off the floor, either by getting him in quick foul trouble, or exposing his weaknesses to the point where he must be benched.

    Is this an accurate assessment of Carey? The impression I get from K is that Carey is a good basketball player and a goodathlete, who is in the midst of learning to play the center position, since he did not do much of that in high school. The Sparty host seems to see Carey's raw post play as his primary skillset, while discounting any idea that he actually could be better (or more experienced) in other facets of the game.
    I think because Vernon is so skilled with his ability to catch, seal, and score from a variety of angles that he doesn't rely on his athleticism, and therefore people believe he is not athletic. As opposed to someone like Bagley who used his athleticism to get to spots and make shots over people. Some of this may be body type as well. I think Jabari gets the same rap. But when it's needed, much like Jabari, Vernon explodes for a dunk or a block (maybe less like Jabari there) that makes you say "wow, I didn't know he had that in him". I would bet his athletic measurables at the combine will be better than most expect.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by duke4ever19 View Post
    IIs this an accurate assessment of Carey? The impression I get from K is that Carey is a good basketball player and a goodathlete, who is in the midst of learning to play the center position, since he did not do much of that in high school.
    I think you could make the argument that Carey does not fit the mold of a modern NBA center. He’s not hyper athletic and he’ll have trouble guarding the perimeter on switches. But in terms of a college center, that assessment is way off base. I don’t think there’s much more Carey could possibly do to establish himself as a “good basketball player.” His instincts and footwork are way ahead of where I thought they would be. He has a quiet personality and I think some people (incorrectly) interpret that as a lack of intensity.

    Just as impressive as Carey himself has been our ability to actually feed the post. Duke teams have never been great at getting the ball into our bigs. It was an issue with Zion, with Bagley/Carter, at times with Okafor, etc. So many times over the years I’ve seen our big man stand in the post with his arm up while a guard stands in place and looks at him, but can’t make the pass. In this game we got creative, swinging the ball to the wings to create a post entry angle or using high ball screens and immediate entry passes. As teams will start doubling the post and denying these passes, we’ll need to continue to adapt.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    . Duke teams have never been great at getting the ball into our bigs. It was an issue with Zion, with Bagley/Carter, at times with Okafor, etc. So many times over the years I’ve seen our big man stand in the post with his arm up while a guard stands in place and looks at him, but can’t make the pass. In this game we got creative, swinging the ball to the wings to create a post entry angle or using high ball screens and immediate entry passes. As teams will start doubling the post and denying these passes, we’ll need to continue to adapt.
    Perhaps I'm feeling overly disputatious this morning. But "never" encompasses Ron Wendelin feeding Mike Lewis, Dick DeVenzio feeding Randy Denton, Bob Bender feeding Mike Gminski, Bobby Hurley feeding Christian Laettner, William Avery feeding Elton Brand, well, you get my drift.

    I have 60 years worth of memories of Duke big men getting position inside and then getting the ball on an entry pass when and where they needed it. And that includes Tyus Jones and Jahlil Okafor.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    The sour grapes on this are just so, so laughable. Carey routinely sealed his man off in the post. He's really good at it. And it's not just that he's big; It's a skill. It's not raw. He went up against one of the biggest front lines in college, Kansas, in his first NCAA game and came away looking like the best post player on the floor. None of the MSU bigs could stop him from sealing them in the post. So if that's "raw," then they are soft and unskilled. Oh, and he casually drained a 3 and is shooting 80% from behind the arc on the season.
    Yeah, I agree that the podcast's assessment is pretty faulty. Carey has great hands, great timing on his posts and seals, and great footwork. Those are skills. He is also extremely big and strong, which allows those skills to flourish. And he appears to have a decent shooting touch, although his free throw percentage doesn't reflect it yet. Nothing about his game screams unskilled.

    Having said that...

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I think you could make the argument that Carey does not fit the mold of a modern NBA center. He’s not hyper athletic and he’ll have trouble guarding the perimeter on switches.
    I think this is what the podcast was probably trying to say. And it's true: he's not an overly mobile, hyper-athletic big. And he's likely to struggle more in the NBA as a result.

    BUT, the podcast is totally off-base at the college level. We've seen it over and over again: big men who play primarily a post-up game can, and do, regularly succeed in college. Very few college teams have the skill, size, or athleticism to stop a guy like that without doubling.

    It IS possible to defend Carey. But to do it you either have to have NBA-level size/skill/athleticism up front (like Kansas) or you have to double (also like Kansas). There is a reason that Carey has lit up pretty much every opponent since the Kansas game, and it isn't just because he is a big body.

  12. #92

    Hurt's shooting

    Matt's shooting form reminds me of Larry Bird. Not saying his overall game is Bird like, but dang his shooting form sure looks like Larry's IMHO.

    Also, just loved his three in the second half where he took the pass up high, never brought the ball down at all, and just drained it. I don't care that he is not an elite athlete, when you have a quick/no hitch release like that, that's a weapon.

  13. #93
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    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    -Joey Baker has now had two great games. He is a very, very one-dimensional player. But that one-dimension is really good on this team. He reminds me a lot of Andre Dawkins: excellent shooter and...that's about it. But that's okay. We need players like that. Keep it up Joey!
    I wouldn't say he's one dimensional, he has multiple ways to score on offense. He's not just a standstill shooter, and this is where he differs from a guy like Andre Dawkins. He's a very good shooter off the dribble, and that's something no one else on the team does. How many guys on this team are able to create their own shot? Tre shoots off the dribble, but not nearly as efficiently. Carey can create in the post, but he needs someone to get him the ball. Joey can catch it on the wing and make something out of nothing, even with little time on the shot clock. That's valuable.

    However, if Joey gets enough minutes to learn how to channel all that energy into something productive on the defensive end, I could see him becoming a serviceable, if not just plain good defender. He is pretty tall, has good length, and is probably more athletic than he gets credit for. He's just way, way too eager to contribute, which makes sense, considering he's somehow still the 10th guy to get in the game. He should already be the 7th man. He could start for this team if he ever calms down enough to play solid defense without fouling. He makes WAY better decisions on offense than AOC. He's willing to take his shot, even under pressure or off the dribble because he's confident. We needed a shot maker on this team, and Joey is starting to take over that role.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    AOC is now back to sophomore AOC. AOC in the first ~3 games of the season was incredible. Clearly a developed player. Now it looks like he's regressed.
    -Wendall Moore feels like the "odd man out" in the core rotation. AOC/Goldwire/Baker, IMO, aren't part of the core rotation. By that, I mean players who are going to play 10+ per game regardless of the opponent or the score. Moore just doesn't add much on the offensive end right now and gets stuck on screens way too much on defense. I'm pretty surprised by this, given how I thought Moore would be the most impactful freshman. Clearly, I was wrong.
    Has AOC regressed . . . or has he just never really gotten any better? He put on some muscle, but the main issue with him is still his low basketball IQ, which hasn't improved. He was able to play well early in the season against Colorado St and Central Arkansas, the two worst and most physically over matched opponents we will face all year. Against Kansas, he did play okay, but he was 3 for 10 in 25 minutes, and Joey Baker did not play in that game.

    Wendell Moore actually reminded me of AOC in this game, which is not good. There was one possession early in the 2nd half where he passed up a WIDE open corner 3 to pass it in to Carey in the post. Carey draws the double team, passes it back out to Moore who is again wide open in the corner. Instead of shooting it or even pump faking it, decides to drive across the key and take a difficult fadeaway shot that clangs off the back rim. He just makes decisions too slowly on offense, and when he finally decides to do something, it's always predetermined, instead of reading and reacting to the defense.

    There was a sequence where a ball was tipped way into the back court, and I thought Moore should have had it, but he just kind of jogs over, and a Michigan State player easily beats him to the ball. At this point, it's becoming apparent that Moore is a bit of a plodder, and is kind of a ball stopper on offense. His size is still an asset on defense, but at least for the moment, he has the look of a 3 to 4 year player. He has fallen off of most NBA draft boards entirely. Once Cassius is back healthy, I'd like to see either Jack White or Joey Baker starting over Moore. Both of those guys are specialists, but they offer a very specific skill that is an asset to the team. Moore is somewhat of a generalist right now, without a clearly elite skill.
    Last edited by kAzE; 12-04-2019 at 12:31 PM.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Assuming your report of the last three minutes is accurate (12 points in 7 possessions), our opposing 2pt% for the first 36 minutes was 48.7% and our defensive ppp for the first 36 minutes of the game was 0.92 (down from 0.99). So, dRtg was a good bit better but not nearly as good as our raw numbers for our first five games.

    That said, we should also take into account that according to Pomeroy, Michigan State has the best offense in the country. I don't usually bother with adjusted ppp until after the 1st of the year (because at the moment Pomeroy's ratings are still so dependent on pre-season ratings), but our adjusted dRtg in this game was 0.83. Again using your description of the last four minutes, our adjusted dRtg for the first 36 minutes was 0.76. Which obviously is really good.
    In retrospect, spending half an hour transcribing the final four minutes of the play-by-play was one of the lamer things I've done after a big Duke win and a few drinks. But I'm pretty sure that it was accurate, at least. And that adjusted dRtg does seem to match up better with the overall impression that I had after the game, so I'll take it!

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I think it's just a good matchup for him. In fact, I'll go further and say I think big, not-so-quick teams are good matchups for this year's Duke team. Small, quick teams, not so much. How well we do in the NCAA tournament might just depend on our bracket path.
    True, although that is pretty much always the case, at least to some extent. The team that is so good that matchups don't matter is rare at best.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    Going on memory but that one foul seem to be in his first minute or two of action, which if true, makes the one foul even more remarkable to me.
    I think it was in the first 5-7 seconds...and it was like okay, here we go again...that didn't take long. Then it's like this whole new player emerged out of the rubble of what had been a really disappointing senior season thus far.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    True, although that is pretty much always the case, at least to some extent. The team that is so good that matchups don't matter is rare at best.
    I agree. But for some teams, a certain type of opponent is kryptonite. In 2009-10, for example, the Duke team got clobbered almost every time we faced an opponent that specialized in four-out, one-in. If Thomas or Zoubek had to defend a shooter in the corner, it stretched our help defense too much and we got shredded. That sort of offense wasn't so common then as it is now. At least three of our five losses came against that sort of offense (two of them surprise blowouts), and as I recall, few if any of our wins. Had we faced such a team in the tournament we were likely toast. Since we didn't, we ended up with a good result.

    I'm afraid this year's team might have a similar weakness against small, overly quick teams.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I wouldn't say he's one dimensional, he has multiple ways to score on offense. He's not just a standstill shooter. He's a very good shooter off the dribble, and that's something no one else on the team does. How many guys on this team are able to create their own shot? Tre shoots off the dribble, but not nearly as efficiently. Carey can create in the post, but he needs someone to get him the ball. Joey can catch it on the wing and make something out of nothing, even with little time on the shot clock. That's valuable.

    However, if Joey gets enough minutes to learn how to channel all that energy into something productive on the defensive end, I could see him becoming a serviceable, if not just plain good defender. He is pretty tall, has good length, and is probably more athletic than he gets credit for. He's just way, way too eager to contribute, which makes sense, considering he's somehow still the 10th guy to get in the game. He should already be the 7th man. He could start for this team if he ever calms down enough to play solid defense without fouling. He makes WAY better decisions on offense than AOC. He's willing to take his shot, even under pressure or off the dribble because he's confident. We needed a shot maker on this team, and Joey is starting to take over that role.

    What Joey uses effectively is the pump fake to draw his defender to leaving his feet or otherwise compromising his defense. Then Joey uses his size and length to get off a clean shot and we have seen how well he can hit those. This is a skill that others like AOC in particular have never mastered or tried. Joey's defense will improve with experience. He is working hard so I expect to see improvements game to game.

    Getting Cassius back sooner than I expected will give us depth, as he can defend the perimeter and also provide offense. He may be back for the next game.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by duke4ever19 View Post
    I listened to a few minutes of the 'Locked on Spartans' podcast this morning, and heard the host make the following remarks about Vernon Carey:

    "This may seem like an insane thing to say, but it's not, I promise you . . . Vernon Carey is not that good at basketball [laughs]. He's very large. He's very strong and can do some stuff in the post, sure. And I shouldn't say he's not good at basketball. I should say he's not good at basketball in 2019 . . . he's probably the 4th best prospect on [Duke's] team . . . or 3rd best . . . . Vernon Carey doesn't have a diverse game. He's a very static player, and I'm using 'static' as in the opposite of 'dynamic.' . . . [Carey] with his footwork is not someone who should dominate Michigan St."

    Carey is also described as 'lumbering' and someone that any higher-level teams NCAA team [presumably like Michigan State?] should be able to run off the floor, either by getting him in quick foul trouble, or exposing his weaknesses to the point where he must be benched.

    Is this an accurate assessment of Carey? The impression I get from K is that Carey is a good basketball player and a goodathlete, who is in the midst of learning to play the center position, since he did not do much of that in high school. The Sparty host seems to see Carey's raw post play as his primary skillset, while discounting any idea that he actually could be better (or more experienced) in other facets of the game.
    26 points/11 rebounds/3 blocks/ 1 assist is my assessment. Just think if he was dynamic and had skills!

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by duke4ever19 View Post
    I listened to a few minutes of the 'Locked on Spartans' podcast this morning, and heard the host make the following remarks about Vernon Carey:

    "This may seem like an insane thing to say, but it's not, I promise you . . . Vernon Carey is not that good at basketball [laughs]. He's very large. He's very strong and can do some stuff in the post, sure. And I shouldn't say he's not good at basketball. I should say he's not good at basketball in 2019 . . . he's probably the 4th best prospect on [Duke's] team . . . or 3rd best . . . . Vernon Carey doesn't have a diverse game. He's a very static player, and I'm using 'static' as in the opposite of 'dynamic.' . . . [Carey] with his footwork is not someone who should dominate Michigan St."

    Carey is also described as 'lumbering' and someone that any higher-level teams NCAA team [presumably like Michigan State?] should be able to run off the floor, either by getting him in quick foul trouble, or exposing his weaknesses to the point where he must be benched.

    Is this an accurate assessment of Carey? The impression I get from K is that Carey is a good basketball player and a goodathlete, who is in the midst of learning to play the center position, since he did not do much of that in high school. The Sparty host seems to see Carey's raw post play as his primary skillset, while discounting any idea that he actually could be better (or more experienced) in other facets of the game.
    So . . . alarmingly unathletic?

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