MBB: Duke 87, Michigan State 75 Post-Game Thread

[CoachJ10]

Call on Duke as Winston was literally untouched for a layup and one could be one of the worst bad calls I’ve seen in a long time. Radio silence from the professional ref critic, Mr Bilas.

* Great game by our leaders. It is amazing how different Javin plays when he plays in control.
* We have seen some sloppy and bush league reffing all too often...but jeez, these clowns last night acted like they had never reffed before.
* Jack White needs to make AOC his personal project. AOC just seems to lose focus when he gets on the court, negating his natural abilities. If he could get like locked in...he’d be a much different player.
* How did we lose to Sparty last year? I wish I could get over that loss.

[roywhite]

Do you remember when we got totally jobbed at Arizona in 1991 in two overtime periods. Greg Koubek's decisive three-pointer was counted as a two, and he was wa-a-a-y beyond the line on the right side of the court. I think K had had his full of West Coast officiating.

Yeah, K was not happy about that. Arizona had a 60-game home win streak, which was in serious jeopardy. Lute Olson pulled off some magic and the officials seemed to do their part. The call on Koubek's shot was particularly egregious.

There was one particular ref in that game who was a notorious West Coast homer, showboat type. Kind of a Teddy Valentine of his day. Can't recall his name.

[SkyBrickey]

No love for Tre’s drive to the rim on the right side where the defender was positioned for the block and Tre somehow shifts the ball over to his left hand in the air and flips it up over the rim to bank it in?

That was amazing. Not sure I’ve seen that before. Degree of difficulty was an 11 and he made it look so easy.

[devildeac]

Yeah, K was not happy about that. Arizona had a 60-game home win streak, which was in serious jeopardy. Lute Olson pulled off some magic and the officials seemed to do their part. The call on Koubek's shot was particularly egregious.

There was one particular ref in that game who was a notorious West Coast homer, showboat type. Kind of a Teddy Valentine of his day. Can't recall his name.

Was that the game when an exchange went something like this:

Ferry yells at ref-"We're getting jobbed here tonight!"
Lute yells at Ferry-"Shut up!"
K yells at Lute-"Don't talk to my players!"

Confirmation and/or embellishment would be appreciated.

[roywhite]

Was that the game when an exchange went something like this:

Ferry yells at ref-"We're getting jobbed here tonight!"
Lute yells at Ferry-"Shut up!"
K yells at Lute-"Don't talk to my players!"

Confirmation and/or embellishment would be appreciated.

There were some notable Duke vs Arizona games around that time:

Dec. 30, 1987

Arizona beat Duke 91-85 in one of the biggest games ever at the now-downsized Fiesta Bowl Classic tournament at McKale Center.

Feb. 26, 1989

Arizona pulled out a 77-75 victory over Duke at the Meadowlands in New Jersey.

Feb. 25, 1990

Duke's Phil Henderson scores 28 points to lead third-ranked Duke to a 78-76 win over 21st-ranked Arizona in Durham, N.C.

Feb. 24, 1991

In the return game at McKale Center the following season, Chris Mills hit a 10-footer to tie the game at the end of the first overtime period, and UA went on to beat Duke 103-96 in the second overtime to extend the then-longest home-court winning streak in the nation to 61 games. "Unbelievable," said guard Matt Muehlebach, now a UA broadcaster. "Just unbelievable."

https://tucson.com/sports/basketball...80706d039.html

I do recall something like that with K & Lute; Ferry would have played in the 1987 and 1989 games.

[roywhite]

Booker Turner is the ref I was thinking about. He officiated some big time games, including Final Fours.

Turner was the Pac-10's most prominent ref in the 1980's; when he officiated a game with a Pac-10 team vs an outside opponent, he seemed to favor the Pac-10 guys. And I think he was involved in Duke vs Arizona at the McKale Center.

[Steven43]

Imagine if Zion and RJ cameback to finish the business.

Vernon
Zion
RJ
Cassius
Tre

No way we would have lost to SFA

Sounds good...other than the RJ part. I just cannot handle a Duke player having that high of a usage rate, especially one who is not a good shooter. I like RJ a lot and wish him great success in the NBA. To that end I follow him closely, checking up on his box score results and highlight clips daily. However, at Duke he just didn’t play the style of ball that I prefer, that’s all.

[Skydog]

Sounds good...other than the RJ part. I just cannot handle a Duke player having that high of a usage rate, especially one who is not a good shooter. I like RJ a lot and wish him great success in the NBA. To that end I follow him closely, checking up on his box score results and highlight clips daily. However, at Duke he just didn’t play the style of ball that I prefer, that’s all.

Agree about Barrett but man would I love seeing those 5 great athletes playing together at Duke. It would look like men playing middle schoolers.

Edit: Ok, 4 1/2 great athletes. Tre is more cerebral.

[Spanarkel]

I'm probably over-reacting to a few plays when I specifically focused on Baker's defense but in some of those he seemed pretty unaware at times. In one of the plays he just keeps wandering away from his man, like he can't stop himself from coming over to help his teammates defend the ball, providing "help" they didn't need. The result was predictable - his man ends up with an open layup. A couple plays after that he is defending a pnr and he ends up double teaming the dribbler (who Jones had stayed with) leaving the roller open for another easy layup. On the latter play I don't fault Baker for popping out with the dribbler but as the play unfolded he had plenty of time to recover to the roller but didn't and the result was another easy layup. The issue that worried me in both of those plays wasn't that he made a mistake (happens to the best) it was that he seemed to lack awareness. A player who loses his man and knows it will improve a lot more than a player who loses his man and never registers that the breakdown was on him.

Finally in another play Baker seems frustrated and reaches around and hacks at the ball and hits the opponents arm pretty hard (at least that was my impression) but somehow doesn't get called for the foul. At risk of raising a touchy subject it looked a bit Grayson-esque. Not dirty at all, but also not smart. Unless you are experienced (and quick) it's hard to play good defense and stay out of foul trouble in general. Baker can't afford emotionally driven play, if that is what it was.

My caveat is that these are all small sample observations from focusing on his defense for 10 minutes in the last game. But they clued me in to why Baker hasn't been getting more playing time despite his considerable offensive skills.

You may be right, but it seems inconceivable that a bright young man who has most likely played 100+ games a season from his middle school days to present would not realize when he has been beat on a play. It can't be and obvioiusly wasn't the first time he's been involved in similar plays, and coaches/teammates/parents/film review would have by now caused him to realize that he didn't play smart defense. These are bread-and-butter basketball plays you are talking about: it's not his first rodeo...

I'm not really sure how you would know that, as you maintain, Joey never realizes that the breakdown was his fault(did he smile or high five his teammates after the plays in question?).

[Edouble]

I would add "overly aggressive on defense" as well. In fact, that might wind up more critical than "small and quick". The teams that have given us more trouble than expected have been teams that overplayed every high ball screen and attacked the dribble religiously. Two of those teams (GSU, SFA) were small and quick, one was bigger/longer and not necessarily that quick (Georgetown), and one was sort of small but not wildly so (Winthrop). What they did was overplay Jones, trap a bunch, and really hound the dribbler. That created live-ball turnovers that turned into fast breaks, which is one of the main way teams have been able to beat our defense (our half-court defense has generally been terrific).

I don't know that a small and overly quick team would fair well against us if they don't employ this strategy. Mainly because if they don't, we'll just punish them inside on offense, and do well enough in the half court that they don't succeed. Conversely, I think it's possible for a normal-sized team to give us trouble if they can employ this strategy of hyper-aggressive on-ball defense and overplaying Jones.

So, what we did to Cassius Winston?

[budwom]

There were some notable Duke vs Arizona games around that time:

Dec. 30, 1987

Arizona beat Duke 91-85 in one of the biggest games ever at the now-downsized Fiesta Bowl Classic tournament at McKale Center.

Feb. 26, 1989

Arizona pulled out a 77-75 victory over Duke at the Meadowlands in New Jersey.

Feb. 25, 1990

Duke's Phil Henderson scores 28 points to lead third-ranked Duke to a 78-76 win over 21st-ranked Arizona in Durham, N.C.

Feb. 24, 1991

In the return game at McKale Center the following season, Chris Mills hit a 10-footer to tie the game at the end of the first overtime period, and UA went on to beat Duke 103-96 in the second overtime to extend the then-longest home-court winning streak in the nation to 61 games. "Unbelievable," said guard Matt Muehlebach, now a UA broadcaster. "Just unbelievable."

https://tucson.com/sports/basketball...80706d039.html

I do recall something like that with K & Lute; Ferry would have played in the 1987 and 1989 games.

I was at the McKale Center in 1987 and we were hideously abused by the refs, it was really a joke...Ferry did not go down quietly...nor did K. At least we got to see the Desert Museum and Kitt Peak without incident.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

There were some notable Duke vs Arizona games around that time:

Dec. 30, 1987

Arizona beat Duke 91-85 in one of the biggest games ever at the now-downsized Fiesta Bowl Classic tournament at McKale Center.

Feb. 26, 1989

Arizona pulled out a 77-75 victory over Duke at the Meadowlands in New Jersey.

Feb. 25, 1990

Duke's Phil Henderson scores 28 points to lead third-ranked Duke to a 78-76 win over 21st-ranked Arizona in Durham, N.C.

Feb. 24, 1991

In the return game at McKale Center the following season, Chris Mills hit a 10-footer to tie the game at the end of the first overtime period, and UA went on to beat Duke 103-96 in the second overtime to extend the then-longest home-court winning streak in the nation to 61 games. "Unbelievable," said guard Matt Muehlebach, now a UA broadcaster. "Just unbelievable."

https://tucson.com/sports/basketball...80706d039.html

I do recall something like that with K & Lute; Ferry would have played in the 1987 and 1989 games.

Well we settled things with the 2001 Natty....but didn't the great 86 team play them in some early season tournament in NY...so late 1985....and as I recall, it was a great game and I think David Henderson led Duke to that victory. But then again, remembering off top of my head for something 33 years ago is dangerous.

[Kedsy]

Well we settled things with the 2001 Natty...but didn't the great 86 team play them in some early season tournament in NY...so late 1985...and as I recall, it was a great game and I think David Henderson led Duke to that victory. But then again, remembering off top of my head for something 33 years ago is dangerous.

Duke did not play Arizona in the 1985-86 season. Coach K's first game (for Duke) vs. Arizona was the 1987-88 game.

[CajunDevil]

I'm probably over-reacting to a few plays when I specifically focused on Baker's defense but in some of those he seemed pretty unaware at times. In one of the plays he just keeps wandering away from his man, like he can't stop himself from coming over to help his teammates defend the ball, providing "help" they didn't need. The result was predictable - his man ends up with an open layup. A couple plays after that he is defending a pnr and he ends up double teaming the dribbler (who Jones had stayed with) leaving the roller open for another easy layup. On the latter play I don't fault Baker for popping out with the dribbler but as the play unfolded he had plenty of time to recover to the roller but didn't and the result was another easy layup. The issue that worried me in both of those plays wasn't that he made a mistake (happens to the best) it was that he seemed to lack awareness. A player who loses his man and knows it will improve a lot more than a player who loses his man and never registers that the breakdown was on him.

Finally in another play Baker seems frustrated and reaches around and hacks at the ball and hits the opponents arm pretty hard (at least that was my impression) but somehow doesn't get called for the foul. At risk of raising a touchy subject it looked a bit Grayson-esque. Not dirty at all, but also not smart. Unless you are experienced (and quick) it's hard to play good defense and stay out of foul trouble in general. Baker can't afford emotionally driven play, if that is what it was.

My caveat is that these are all small sample observations from focusing on his defense for 10 minutes in the last game. But they clued me in to why Baker hasn't been getting more playing time despite his considerable offensive skills.

You could analyze each Duke player and virtually all of them fail on defense at some point. Tre has gotten beat off the dribble a good bit this year. Occasionally Vernon plays on the high side or allows his man to get angle on him when he could've moved his feet. Jack has missed numerous rotations... just against MSU. Hurt gets bullied on a regular basis. My point is while Joey may not have the defensive instincts of Tre, he brings what this team lacks - shooting, energy, and toughness. When he gets in the game he sparks the team, raises the energy, and that has a hard time being quantified.

[rsvman]

Call on Duke as Winston was literally untouched for a layup and one could be one of the worst bad calls I’ve seen in a long time. Radio silence from the professional ref critic, Mr Bilas.

....

Not only was he untouched, but it looked like he was in the pre-game layup line! There must have been 2 1/2 to 3 feet of nothing but East Lansing air between him and the nearest defender. Nobody even reached a hand out sideways or upwards or make any kind of attempt to slow down/stop the drive. I couldn't believe I heard a whistle; I thought my ears were fooling me. I even asked the question in the in-game thread to make sure it wasn't just in my head.

Horrible, horrible call. Might as well have called it on Scheyer, as he was just about as close to Winston as any of the players were.

[Rich]

Well we settled things with the 2001 Natty...but didn't the great 86 team play them in some early season tournament in NY...so late 1985...and as I recall, it was a great game and I think David Henderson led Duke to that victory. But then again, remembering off top of my head for something 33 years ago is dangerous.

I was at the game. We played in the inaugural NIT Tip-Off, which was then called The Big Apple NIT, in 1985 and beat Kansas in the finals, 92-86.

Verification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIT_Season_Tip-Off

[Rich]

I was at the game. We played in the inaugural NIT Tip-Off, which was then called The Big Apple NIT, in 1985 and beat Kansas in the finals, 92-86.

Verification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIT_Season_Tip-Off

Anecdotally, Duke issued a t-shirt design that showed a bite out of an apple after that tournament and then updated it with a new shirt with a second bite out of the apple when we won the ACC Tournament. I think they issued a third shirt/bite after the Final Four.

[budwom]

I was at the game. We played in the inaugural NIT Tip-Off, which was then called The Big Apple NIT, in 1985 and beat Kansas in the finals, 92-86.

Verification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIT_Season_Tip-Off

Got a great Big Apple NIT shirt there that lasted 20 years or so, top quality! I still remember what a beast Walter Berry was for St. Johns (semis, right?)...

[jv001]

Booker Turner is the ref I was thinking about. He officiated some big time games, including Final Fours.

Turner was the Pac-10's most prominent ref in the 1980's; when he officiated a game with a Pac-10 team vs an outside opponent, he seemed to favor the Pac-10 guys. And I think he was involved in Duke vs Arizona at the McKale Center.

roywhite, another ref I hated to see calling our officiating our games was Ed Hightower. It seemed his calls always went against Duke!
GoDuke!

[Rich]

Got a great Big Apple NIT shirt there that lasted 20 years or so, top quality! I still remember what a beast Walter Berry was for St. Johns (semis, right?)...

Thanks for refreshing my memory, I was at the semi-final game against St. John's too, not the finals game against Kansas. But I watched the Kansas semi-final game, which was the first semi-final game, and I think they played Louisville - which would mean three of the Final Four teams played in that event.

I got confused because I distinctly remember the Kansas "wave the wheat" chant, but now I realize that was not the game against Duke. I had to head back to Durham before the finals game.