MBB: Duke 83, SF Austin 85 Post-Game Thread

[TKG]

I was answering Kedsy's comment "The thing is, lower-rated recruits who stay 3 or 4 years more often than not end up playing like Javin DeLaurier and Joey Baker and Alex O'Connell and Jack White and Jordan Goldwire. You can get lucky every once in awhile, but in general you can't really have it both ways."

Other schools who do recruit from the lower rated category do get good results at times. Good choices and good development result in capable teams. We just haven't done that well in this years class of supporting cast people.

One question I would ask, in this era would a program be better off establishing a system and recruiting players to fit that system or bring in a new group of recruits each year and spend much of the season trying to figure out how to maximize their unique skills/talents? From my seat (backbencher, for sure) it would seem that K has chosen to follow the latter path.

[MarkD83]

One question I would ask, in this era would a program be better off establishing a system and recruiting players to fit that system or bring in a new group of recruits each year and spend much of the season trying to figure out how to maximize their unique skills/talents? From my seat (backbencher, for sure) it would seem that K has chosen to follow the latter path.

The key to this is to define “better off”. For some teams making the NCAA tournament is “better off”. For duke fans like us “better off” is defined as another national championship.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

One question I would ask, in this era would a program be better off establishing a system and recruiting players to fit that system or bring in a new group of recruits each year and spend much of the season trying to figure out how to maximize their unique skills/talents? From my seat (backbencher, for sure) it would seem that K has chosen to follow the latter path.

There's not a one size fits all answer here. You have to understand your program, your school, your expectations and the coach needs to be himself. I don't think it's so much that K has "chosen" the latter path, it's that the Duke program evolved into that situation - and with it comes the good and the bad. He understood that, has embraced that reality, and of course is making the best out of it, or trying.

Many programs in basketball, or Duke FB for example, is extremely dependent on the former notion. WF FB does a really good job in the system based recruiting and development paradigm.

[TKG]

There's not a one size fits all answer here. You have to understand your program, your school, your expectations and the coach needs to be himself. I don't think it's so much that K has "chosen" the latter path, it's that the Duke program evolved into that situation - and with it comes the good and the bad. He understood that, has embraced that reality, and of course is making the best out of it, or trying.

Many programs in basketball, or Duke FB for example, is extremely dependent on the former notion. WF FB does a really good job in the system based recruiting and development paradigm.

The one quibble I have with your note is that I think K has made an active decision to pursue the latter path. I do not think K has been a victim of circumstance or that this is just the latest of stage of program evolution.

[NSDukeFan]

I was answering Kedsy's comment "The thing is, lower-rated recruits who stay 3 or 4 years more often than not end up playing like Javin DeLaurier and Joey Baker and Alex O'Connell and Jack White and Jordan Goldwire. You can get lucky every once in awhile, but in general you can't really have it both ways."

Other schools who do recruit from the lower rated category do get good results at times. Good choices and good development result in capable teams. We just haven't done that well in this years class of supporting cast people.

Sure, other schools who recruit from lower rated players do get good results at times. The difference is that Duke has been consistently the best or second best program for over thirty years. There is a long list of Duke players who are remembered very fondly, who were not necessarily appreciated for the progress they were making as they were developing. I think it would be more prudent to wait to write off this team’s upperclassmen until later in the year, if you’re going to, instead of after the team’s first loss.
If, at the start of the year, we were told the team would have one loss at this point, few would have been surprised. I would rather have had the wins against Kansas and Georgetown and the loss to Stephen, than a different combination.

[jimsumner]

I think this was a game K didn't care if he lost based on the way the guys were playing...he wanted to send a statement.?

As someone who sat 10 feet away from Krzyzewski during the post-game I can state with reasonable certainty that he did care that Duke lost. The man looked like someone had just run over his dog.

And his messages about playing strong and finishing plays seemed to be aimed at everyone, Carey yes, but also the star point-guard who had eight turnovers, the 6-9 power forward who had two rebounds in 24 minutes, the senior backup center who looked hopelessly lost, the junior wing who sat on the bench as the game collapsed because the head coach didn't trust him enough to put him on the floor.

Duke thought it had sent its statement during practice. These guys are tough, physical veterans who will play hard for 40 minutes and you'd better be prepared to match that. The players nodded, said yes, they understood and went out and played with a sense of sloppy entitlement. Duke tried to reassert that message during timeouts, during halftime and it just did not resonate. Nobody listened.

[Saratoga2]

Did anyone else read the much less than complimentary article by Giles that was put up about 2 hours ago. No fan here would have said those things although many of us have hoped he would play better.

[TKG]

Did anyone else read the much less than complimentary article by Giles that was put up about 2 hours ago. No fan here would have said those things although many of us have hoped he would play better.

Pretty tough take on the staff’s inability to develop players.

[Kedsy]

I was answering Kedsy's comment "The thing is, lower-rated recruits who stay 3 or 4 years more often than not end up playing like Javin DeLaurier and Joey Baker and Alex O'Connell and Jack White and Jordan Goldwire. You can get lucky every once in awhile, but in general you can't really have it both ways."

Other schools who do recruit from the lower rated category do get good results at times. Good choices and good development result in capable teams. We just haven't done that well in this years class of supporting cast people.

Sure, other schools who recruit from lower rated players do get good results at times. The difference is that Duke has been consistently the best or second best program for over thirty years. There is a long list of Duke players who are remembered very fondly, who were not necessarily appreciated for the progress they were making as they were developing. I think it would be more prudent to wait to write off this team’s upperclassmen until later in the year, if you’re going to, instead of after the team’s first loss.

If, at the start of the year, we were told the team would have one loss at this point, few would have been surprised. I would rather have had the wins against Kansas and Georgetown and the loss to Stephen, than a different combination.

Thank you, NSDF. Very well said.

"Get[ting] good results at times" and "being good" are completely different things. SFA might have won this game, but last season they went 14-16 while playing in the Southland conference. The team has won just two NCAA tournament games in program history. If that's what you're aiming for, including the occasional amazing upset, then sure, you can get along with recruits rated wherever SFA's recruits were rated.

Frankly, I'm fairly certain a team consisting of only our non-freshmen this season would handily win a 7-game series with SFA. That doesn't change the fact that recruits ranked 35 and up generally (not always) have flaws in their game. More "lower rated" recruits play like Javin/Joey/Alex/Jack/Jordan than otherwise.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Did anyone else read the much less than complimentary article by Giles that was put up about 2 hours ago. No fan here would have said those things although many of us have hoped he would play better.

Which Giles? Put up where?

[Rmarkste]

It took me a while to get into this site but happy to add to the great discussion. I had low expectations, Sweet 16 goal to me would be fsuccessful season this year after losing all the scoring talent. We are all pretty smart on this site and I have watched every Duke games since the Johnny Dawkins years and Coach K usually settles on a rotation of 6 to 7 guys and I am going to try to be really positive after this loss. He is settling on a good starting rotation and maybe he will keep whittling down the minutes for Delaurier, AOC, Goldwire and hopefully White And then we will see the upside start to show up for the higher ceiling players young guys over the course of this long season. First on these four experienced players that could be losing minutes. They have some great effort games but these four guys just don’t have the upside. DeLaurier doesn’t have good body language lately and isn’t able to contribute much on either side of the ball other than spelling Carey, AOC seems so loose chewing his gum like he is playing in a pickup game in the gym but if he isn’t hitting his shots enough to contribute. Goldwire has good moments and I like his body language but seems to have regressed a little despite limited minutes. I love White’s hustle but he just seems a step slow to me and he is turning it over now which I don’t recall in the past. And he really has no confidence to take his shot. I am half frustrated he won’t shoot and when he does he misses pretty badly which AOC does too. This brings me to Joey Baker. He has paid his dues so let the dude play minutes and let’s see what he can do. Like I said I have watched every minute of every game. And when Baker misses he is usually back rimming it or much closer on his misses than AOC and White who are clanking it. The guy was ranked higher than Tyler Herro (good in NBA) and Cassius Stanley. He is 20 pounds heavier than AOC. Let’s see what he can do with over 20 minutes in a few games since he CAN shoot. Speaking of paying his dues let’s see Justin Robinson play meaningful minutes since can provide blocks, shoot some and provide energy. Every time the camera shows David Robinson in the stands I want that to translate into Justin getting five minutes PT. :-) Whenever I see the Robinson in the game, he plays hard and it will send a message to the other guys.

[Saratoga2]

Which Giles? Put up where?

Here's the link. I should have included it earlier.

https://balldurham.com/2019/11/28/ja...ketball-staff/

[proelitedota]

Here's the link. I should have included it earlier.

https://balldurham.com/2019/11/28/ja...ketball-staff/

Balldurham needs to be banned here. Pure clickbait.

[Natty_B]

Balldurham needs to be banned here. Pure clickbait.

Agree

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Balldurham needs to be banned here. Pure clickbait.

Clickbait is hardly a pejorative anymore...that would be 99.9% of websites. That's how they monetize.

As for this article, while way overstated and way snarkier than necessary, there are some things there that perhaps need to be contemplated.

[BobBender]

Also, for years around here, a lot of people have been begging for K to recruit some lower-rated recruits who will stay 3 or 4 years. Now some of those same people are complaining about our lower-rated recruits that have stayed 3 or 4 years (or probably will, in Joey Baker's case).

The thing is, lower-rated recruits who stay 3 or 4 years more often than not end up playing like Javin DeLaurier and Joey Baker and Alex O'Connell and Jack White and Jordan Goldwire. You can get lucky every once in awhile, but in general you can't really have it both ways.

It is laughable to categorize Javin(#35) Joey Baker (#18) and AOC (~#65-70) as “ lower-rated recruits” That implies they were projects who had a small chance of becoming big program contributors. Who is it on that they have not developed? There are probably 14 of the top 20 programs that would have taken any of the three.
There is an art to roster construction that, it could be argued, K has not done particularly well. For example, was it really optimal to have both Marvin Bagley and Wendell Carter in the same class? Though I know you don’t turn Bagley down when he wants to come, but why were both recruited?. Same with Cam Reddish/ RJ Barrett. At the end of the day, they play the game with one basketball and there are egos involved with having one too many top 10 recruits every year, particularly playing the same position.
Would results be materially different if a couple of “ lower-rated recruits” split 40 minutes among them and actually got better? I hate to say this, but this is where the UNC coach has done a superior job in the last decade.

[SouthernDukie]

As someone who sat 10 feet away from Krzyzewski during the post-game I can state with reasonable certainty that he did care that Duke lost. The man looked like someone had just run over his dog.

And his messages about playing strong and finishing plays seemed to be aimed at everyone, Carey yes, but also the star point-guard who had eight turnovers, the 6-9 power forward who had two rebounds in 24 minutes, the senior backup center who looked hopelessly lost, the junior wing who sat on the bench as the game collapsed because the head coach didn't trust him enough to put him on the floor.

Duke thought it had sent its statement during practice. These guys are tough, physical veterans who will play hard for 40 minutes and you'd better be prepared to match that. The players nodded, said yes, they understood and went out and played with a sense of sloppy entitlement. Duke tried to reassert that message during timeouts, during halftime and it just did not resonate. Nobody listened.

Thanks, Jim. There is no doubt in my mind that we, as a team, just didn’t bring the toughness we needed to that game. We were manhandled and outquicked to the ball all night long. If the team has learned that lesson Coach and the staff tried to convey, and it sticks for the remainder of the year, then something good can come of the defeat. But they better have learned the lesson well. If not, there will be other similar losses.

[Kedsy]

It is laughable to categorize Javin(#35) Joey Baker (#18) and AOC (~#65-70) as “ lower-rated recruits”

First of all, Joey Baker was #37 in the RSCI. Second, in the context of the discussion -- the near-constant refrain over the past several years on the part of many posters on this board that Duke should eschew recruiting so many top 10 guys in favor of guys rated 30 to 60ish who will stay 3 or 4 years -- "lower-rated" is the correct description for all the guys you mention.

My point was, if one advocates for the recruitment of lesser recruits (again, in context), then you shouldn't complain when they play like lesser recruits.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

First of all, Joey Baker was #37 in the RSCI. Second, in the context of the discussion -- the near-constant refrain over the past several years on the part of many posters on this board that Duke should eschew recruiting so many top 10 guys in favor of guys rated 30 to 60ish who will stay 3 or 4 years -- "lower-rated" is the correct description for all the guys you mention.

My point was, if one advocates for the recruitment of lesser recruits (again, in context), then you shouldn't complain when they play like lesser recruits.

Your main point is well taken, but I would say that some of our lesser recruits are not playing up to the standards of much lower recruited players at some other schools it seems. The article on Javin was over the top to be sure, but it made some valid points...

[Steven43]

First of all, Joey Baker was #37 in the RSCI. Second, in the context of the discussion -- the near-constant refrain over the past several years on the part of many posters on this board that Duke should eschew recruiting so many top 10 guys in favor of guys rated 30 to 60ish who will stay 3 or 4 years -- "lower-rated" is the correct description for all the guys you mention.

My point was, if one advocates for the recruitment of lesser recruits (again, in context), then you shouldn't complain when they play like lesser recruits.

Here’s the thing. When you eschew recruiting players you feel will likely be OAD in favor of those who probably will not be, you have to be willing to have a semi-down year here and there while these guys gain experience. And once the team is consistently eschewing OAD types, the necessity of having down years would be eliminated because the program would be based around guys staying 3-4 years.

We used to expect players to be major contributors in their junior and senior years. Well, if OADs come in every year, like has been the case for many years now at Duke, the lower-level recruits never get a chance to be the main players on the team and are not allowed to properly grow into the players they could be, like they are able to do at other schools.

Right now we have a program that has fully and completely bought-in to the Kentucky-type OAD recruiting for quite a few years now, so our lesser-level recruits have been put in a situation that is not conducive to them reaching their full potential.