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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Using today's standards Duke qualified for a bowl game in 1961, 1962, 1965, 1970, 1971, 1974, 1981, 1982 and 1988.

    And Wallace Wade used to go 9-1 and stay home.
    So, since the 1961 win, Duke qualified for two bowls and would have qualified under today’s standards for another eight. Ten total in 48 seasons from our last win until Cut arrived.

    Cut himself has qualified for six bowls in twelve seasons.

    As I said, bowls are easier to qualify for these days. But what Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 posted is a fair statement of what Cut has meant to the program. (Or at least, that’s what I took from his post which is being dissected way too literally IMO).

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    So, since the 1961 win, Duke qualified for two bowls and would have qualified under todayís standards for another eight. Ten total in 48 seasons from our last win until Cut arrived.

    Cut himself has qualified for six bowls in twelve seasons.

    As I said, bowls are easier to qualify for these days. But what Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 posted is a fair statement of what Cut has meant to the program. (Or at least, thatís what I took from his post which is being dissected way too literally IMO).
    all of
    - meaning a lot to the program
    - having been the right man at some point in the past
    - currently being the right man
    are independent.

    and don't read that to mean that cut is not the right man currently. I do believe, however, that duke had the opportunity to perform better the past couple seasons and didn't. I also believe, like many of you, that Cut has a responsibility to fix that. So far, he has not, and I think he has some serious decisions to make this offseason.
    It's being reported that due to coronavirus fears, Harvard has asked students not to return from spring break, and for classes to be held online.

    Not to be outdone, UNC told students to stop coming to class 27 years ago under Dean Smith.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    and don't read that to mean that cut is not the right man currently. I do believe, however, that duke had the opportunity to perform better the past couple seasons and didn't. I also believe, like many of you, that Cut has a responsibility to fix that. So far, he has not, and I think he has some serious decisions to make this offseason.
    I don’t wholly disagree, other than to say that IIRC the over/under on this year was 5.5 wins and last year we were projected a borderline bowl team. We had a rough run of early injuries last year too. So while I would agree that we have not exceeded expectations the last two years, I think we’ve done about what was projected.

    And yes, I think Cut would be the first to state that improvement is on his shoulders and he has some serious evaluations to do. No disagreement here.

    To me, the disappointing thing isn’t the close losses. Those happen. It’s the inexplicable (to me) butt-whippings at home we have taken from teams like Wake last year and Syracuse this year that I find discouraging.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by jb75 View Post
    I am a HUGE David Cutcliffe fan. However, comparing bowl achievement decades ago to todayís environment is ďapples and orangesĒ.
    Agreed. From which year forward should we count our winless bowl streak?

    My bigger point stands. Coach Cut has changed the expectations of Duke football in a seismic way.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    all of
    - meaning a lot to the program
    - having been the right man at some point in the past
    - currently being the right man
    are independent.

    and don't read that to mean that cut is not the right man currently. I do believe, however, that duke had the opportunity to perform better the past couple seasons and didn't. I also believe, like many of you, that Cut has a responsibility to fix that. So far, he has not, and I think he has some serious decisions to make this offseason.
    I wasn't suggesting that Cut was or wasn't the "right man now."

    I acknowledge that Cut possibly may fall victim to the new expectations of our fan base. But you also could acknowledge that those expectations were not here before Cutcliffe arrived.

  6. #206
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    C'mon, awful invalid analogy and you know it. That's like saying Coach K is only half the coach Wooden was, cuz Wooden won 10. That was the Jurassic era.

    In FB, used to take 7-3 minimum to go bowling...then 7-4 when the 11th game was added. Wasn't too long ago that 6-6 was considered mediocre, not "bowl eligible." I think at one time only 10% of what was called "Division One" went to a bowl.
    Hah! We turned down the Gator Bowl with an 8-2 record and a borderline top-ten ranking. According to, I believe, either Sumner or Featherston, players hated Bill Murray's intense practices and didn't want to go through another three weeks.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Hah! We turned down the Gator Bowl with an 8-2 record and a borderline top-ten ranking. Players hated Bill Murray's intense practices and didn't want to go through another three weeks.
    Travel was much more of an issue in those days as well.

    Iím glad we have a rich history. Iím glad we have Cut now.

    Iím happy to forget much of the wasteland in between.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Using today's standards Duke qualified for a bowl game in 1961, 1962, 1965, 1970, 1971, 1974, 1981, 1982 and 1988.

    And Wallace Wade used to go 9-1 and stay home.
    Long time ago, but Duke won the ACC championships in 1961 and 1962 (6-0 ACC) - now that would have earned two Orange Bowl invites.

    I would add 1963 & 1966 to that list, as Duke won five games both years, out of the 10 game slate - and if playing .500 ball is the standard for bowl eligibility, as it is now, then they played .500 ball those years (and those were the years were all of Duke OOC's schedule was against tough opponents - no cupcakes)

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that Cut was or wasn't the "right man now."

    I acknowledge that Cut possibly may fall victim to the new expectations of our fan base. But you also could acknowledge that those expectations were not here before Cutcliffe arrived.
    I agree completely. I think, also, that there is such a difference between the nature of college football from the 60's-70's to now that the more relevant comparison is to look at what Duke football has been since Steve Spurrier left in 1989, so exactly the last 30 years.

    In the 18 seasons pre-Cut, from 1990 through 2007, we were 43-159-1 (avg. per year of 2.4-8.8), with one bowl trip. We only had one year with more than four wins. Worse, we had a pathetic six winless or one-win seasons. Duke football was a grotesque joke during those 18 years, easily the worst major conference program and almost always uncompetitive against D-1 foes.

    Under Cut, we've been, for the most part (obviously a few stinkers) competitive against against all but the very best opponents, while running a clean program that continues to consistently lead the nation in graduation and ACC in academic honors.

    The struggles this season have been disappointing, but I'd say we were very competitive until, as others have noted, the bizarre endings of the Pitt and Carolina games did seem to break the team. But, this year was always going to be difficult, with the tougher than usual schedule and an unproven QB.

    We have a great deal to be proud of with regard to Duke football and shouldn't easily forget just how sorry we were for the nearly two decades before Coach Cut arrived.

  10. #210
    I think everyone appreciates the job Cut has done in revitalizing what had been the worst Power 5 program in the country in the 15 years before he arrived in Durham, but many feel that the coaching, primarily on offense, has not been as good over the last 4 years, compared to Cut's peak era from 2012-2015. We've won 10 ACC games since the start of 2016, and have failed to achieve a .500 season in the Coastal in that timespan, while having suffered through numerous ugly offensive performances, even with a top 10 pick at QB for 3 seasons. It's definitely fair to discuss the shortcomings of the last few Duke teams, and what can be done to get the program back to contending in the Coastal again. I would like to see a new OC and a revamped offensive scheme in 2020.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    In the decades before Cut got here, we failed to exceed four wins in seventeen of eighteen seasons. While bowls are easier to qualify for now than before, it’s not a bad loose comparison.

    It is not inappropriate IMHO to note that the last Duke bowl win before Cutcliffe was during JFK’s Administration. No matter the fruit being compared.
    Very happy that we picked ourselves off the mat from the TKO in the Pitt game and the KO from the unc jump pass episode that sucked the air out of the team. Any win that ends a season is beneficial to the team and it's fan base

    Mr King told readers to get over it in his article before this game. OK. But is it too much to ask that a program 11 years into a coach's tenure should get somewhere near .500 in their conference more consistently which, in most years, would allow us to be one of 78 teams going to a bowl game. Maybe that is too much to ask. As far as bowls, it could be argued that our normally weak OOC schedule has been very beneficial. Winning 2-3 games in most years in conference depends on a very favorable OOC schedule.

    I think that Cut has done a fantastic job in raising the profile of the football program. But it seems that comparing his tenure to the mediocre 40 years before he got here is more a reflection on the lack of commitment from Duke than anything else. Red Wilson had a nice run. We got lucky with Steve Spurrier. What if he had stayed 11 years? I don't think we would be talking about the bad old days before Cut. And I know people will say that we can't get Steve Spurriers to stick around. Ok, what if a David Cutcliff had been hired after Spurrier left instead of the parade of below average coaches in the years between he and Coach Cut. What would our program history look like today had that happened? Wilson and Spurrier had given Duke at lot of momentum.

    I hope this year is an outlier and that we get back to 6-8 wins and a bowl game. And, more important, that we start reversing the mediocre conference record we have had since the break through 2013 season.

  12. #212
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by dm9e24 View Post
    Very happy that we picked ourselves off the mat from the TKO in the Pitt game and the KO from the unc jump pass episode that sucked the air out of the team. Any win that ends a season is beneficial to the team and it's fan base

    Mr King told readers to get over it in his article before this game. OK. But is it too much to ask that a program 11 years into a coach's tenure should get somewhere near .500 in their conference more consistently which, in most years, would allow us to be one of 78 teams going to a bowl game. Maybe that is too much to ask. As far as bowls, it could be argued that our normally weak OOC schedule has been very beneficial. Winning 2-3 games in most years in conference depends on a very favorable OOC schedule.

    .
    .
    Duke has been at least 3-5 in ACC play 6 of the last 7 years. In other words, no worse than one win from .500. That seems like getting somewhere near .500 in conference play consistently.

    1962? Duke turned down a Gator Bowl bid for several reasons. Don't think travel was one of them. Duke had lost its final two regular-season games in 1960 and Murray was not happy. Murray ran a very rough practice regimen prior to the Cotton Bowl. At least some of the 1960 sophomores were 1962 seniors and they decided they would rather spend their last Christmas vacation before entering the real world with their families.

    And prior to that Duke had only played in the Rose, Cotton, Orange or Sugar bowls. At least some people in the administration thought the Gator Bowl was beneath Duke.

    Note that as recently as 1988, Spurrier's second season at Duke, the Blue Devils went 7-3-1, with an exciting offense that included a quarterback who passed for 3,800 yards in 11 games and still didn't get a bid.
    Last edited by jimsumner; 12-01-2019 at 08:13 PM.

  13. #213
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    Oct 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I donít wholly disagree, other than to say that IIRC the over/under on this year was 5.5 wins and last year we were projected a borderline bowl team. We had a rough run of early injuries last year too. So while I would agree that we have not exceeded expectations the last two years, I think weíve done about what was projected.

    And yes, I think Cut would be the first to state that improvement is on his shoulders and he has some serious evaluations to do. No disagreement here.

    To me, the disappointing thing isnít the close losses. Those happen. Itís the inexplicable (to me) butt-whippings at home we have taken from teams like Wake last year and Syracuse this year that I find discouraging.
    Given duke's record against the spread under cut (i don't have the exact number, but if i recall, it's unnaturally good), i'm not sure lines or projections are necessarily the right metric to measure ourselves against. This stems from the history of duke footballl, and bettors (or media) not taking the time to actually evaluate the team. One could also argue the projected number of wins is so low because duke has not demonstrated recently that they can consistently perform up to the potential of the talent on the roster, and that gets baked in. Either way, it makes it somewhat dubious to evaluate a program thusly.

    On the other hand,. as was pointed out earlier, we have similar recruiting numbers to teams who have recently consistently finished better than us recently. That I think is a bit of a more important indicator. We shouldn't be getting blown out by syracuse, or consistently losing to wake, or losing every 50/50 game given what we put on the field, but we did this year, and the story is similar the past couple of years.
    It's being reported that due to coronavirus fears, Harvard has asked students not to return from spring break, and for classes to be held online.

    Not to be outdone, UNC told students to stop coming to class 27 years ago under Dean Smith.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    Given duke's record against the spread under cut (i don't have the exact number, but if i recall, it's unnaturally good), i'm not sure lines or projections are necessarily the right metric to measure ourselves against. This stems from the history of duke footballl, and bettors (or media) not taking the time to actually evaluate the team. One could also argue the projected number of wins is so low because duke has not demonstrated recently that they can consistently perform up to the potential of the talent on the roster, and that gets baked in. Either way, it makes it somewhat dubious to evaluate a program thusly.

    On the other hand,. as was pointed out earlier, we have similar recruiting numbers to teams who have recently consistently finished better than us recently. That I think is a bit of a more important indicator. We shouldn't be getting blown out by syracuse, or consistently losing to wake, or losing every 50/50 game given what we put on the field, but we did this year, and the story is similar the past couple of years.
    I agree. I don't think that evaluating the program on whether it is meeting or exceeding preseason projections is the right way to look at it. For me the question should be "what are the expectations for performance over a period of time and are we meeting those expectations"? And exceptional past performance such as Cut leading the program out of CFB Hades definitely earns more patience But I differ with those who treat Cut as if he has earned permanent tenure.

    So I look at the last 4 years and I see warning lights and alarms going off. I am not reacting to individual seasons, let alone individual games, although they can be data points. We have better athletes than we have ever had. Yet, we have multiple "big"games in each of those years where we came out flat or even worse, did not really show up. We are 10-22 in the ACC the past four seasons - i.e. we are winning less than 1/3 of our games. We have finished last or second to last in the Coastal every year. In our past 13 regular season games, we now have 53 and 43 point losses in games Duke was favored by double digits. In the last two games against WF, Duke has 541 yards of offense (251+290) and WF has 1135 (517 and 618). In the past 5 years we have not had an offense ranked in the Top 60, except in 2018 when it was in the 52-55 range. This year our offense was somewhere between 110th or 120th in the country. Teams stuff the box and run press coverage against us over and over and over not only this year, but at times in past seasons. Yet, very little changes in our offensive scheme and play calling. We are way behind the rest of the ACC in getting guys drafted. I don't see many players getting better over the course of their career. Look at this year's list of 16 or 17 scholarship players who are leaving and who measurably improved over his career...and how many didn't.

    I could keep going, but I think those capture a few of the warning lights I see.

  15. #215
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    Feb 2007
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    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Agreed. From which year forward should we count our winless bowl streak?

    My bigger point stands. Coach Cut has changed the expectations of Duke football in a seismic way.
    Well yeah.

    Before Cut I would have been dancing a jig over a 5-7 season. Now Iím disappointed.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Duke has been at least 3-5 in ACC play 6 of the last 7 years. In other words, no worse than one win from .500. That seems like getting somewhere near .500 in conference play consistently.

    1962? Duke turned down a Gator Bowl bid for several reasons. Don't think travel was one of them. Duke had lost its final two regular-season games in 1960 and Murray was not happy. Murray ran a very rough practice regimen prior to the Cotton Bowl. At least some of the 1960 sophomores were 1962 seniors and they decided they would rather spend their last Christmas vacation before entering the real world with their families.

    And prior to that Duke had only played in the Rose, Cotton, Orange or Sugar bowls. At least some people in the administration thought the Gator Bowl was beneath Duke.

    Note that as recently as 1988, Spurrier's second season at Duke, the Blue Devils went 7-3-1, with an exciting offense that included a quarterback who passed for 3,800 yards in 11 games and still didn't get a bid.
    I agree that finishing below .500 5 out of those 7 years is consistent and should be good enough for Duke fans. Why expect more. Next year we should start off 3-0 with a fairly weak out of conference schedule and then our consistent 3-5 conference record should have us bowling. All will be good

  17. #217
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by dm9e24 View Post
    I agree that finishing below .500 5 out of those 7 years is consistent and should be good enough for Duke fans. Why expect more. Next year we should start off 3-0 with a fairly weak out of conference schedule and then our consistent 3-5 conference record should have us bowling. All will be good
    That's not what I said and you know it. I was responding to a very specific comment with a very specific set of facts.

  18. #218
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    Thomasville, NC
    My son heard yesterday that Duke was not completely out of the running for a bowl. Is this true?

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilwin View Post
    My son heard yesterday that Duke was not completely out of the running for a bowl. Is this true?
    I guess if enough teams turned down bids, but there are 79 teams for 78 slots so we would need two teams to decline invites (and then we would have to accept). Not something I would consider likely, but I suppose it is possible. How often to teams turn down bids?

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Duke has been at least 3-5 in ACC play 6 of the last 7 years. In other words, no worse than one win from .500. That seems like getting somewhere near .500 in conference play consistently.

    1962? Duke turned down a Gator Bowl bid for several reasons. Don't think travel was one of them. Duke had lost its final two regular-season games in 1960 and Murray was not happy. Murray ran a very rough practice regimen prior to the Cotton Bowl. At least some of the 1960 sophomores were 1962 seniors and they decided they would rather spend their last Christmas vacation before entering the real world with their families.

    And prior to that Duke had only played in the Rose, Cotton, Orange or Sugar bowls. At least some people in the administration thought the Gator Bowl was beneath Duke.

    Note that as recently as 1988, Spurrier's second season at Duke, the Blue Devils went 7-3-1, with an exciting offense that included a quarterback who passed for 3,800 yards in 11 games and still didn't get a bid.
    Well Jim, this is true, Duke has been at least 3-5 in ACC play in six of the last seven years. But I think you have to admit, that's a nice massage of reality.
    Another way of looking at it is that over the past four seasons, we are 10-22 in ACC play, which would seem to be a better description of where we are now...let's see what Cut chooses to do, if anything, this off season...

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