Is It Time For Cut To Retire?

[budwom]

I am aware I’m chiming in on a family discussion at which I’m a tolerated guest but . . .

Guys, be happy with your coach.

At Virginia we pushed out a wonderful coach - George Welsh - earlier than he wanted. He’d taken us from embarrassment to regular bowl appearances and parity with our rival, but his (in retrospect masterful) management of boosters and admissions standards wasn’t getting us the players or the records we’d begun to believe we deserved.

And then began dark, dark years for our program. Mendenhall has us back on an upswing, but the London and Groh years cost the program a great deal.

Ha, if I were a Hoo fan I'd want Duke to stand pat as well...Mendenhall just destroys Duke's offense...I say that as someone who sees no need to get rid of Cut (he'll go when he wants to go) but his offensive staff needs to be totally reworked, that much is obvious. Whether he does so or not remains to be seen.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Most of my friends who follow college football closely thinks Cut is a wonderful coach and would be flabbergasted if Cut was forced out in any way.

It has been explained to me that Duke has a small alumni base in Durham and so attendance at football is just doomed to be low. As someone married to a grad of USC who attends almost every home game regardless of the quality of the team I still think the empty seats stink. I doubt if a new coach is going to fill the place. It does seem like student attendance is lacking.

SoCal

[Acymetric]

Probably there are limits. But we aren't the worst team in the conference over the past eight years. Including partial results for this year, Duke is 27-34 in ACC play since (and including) the 2012 season. We have been to a bowl game six of the past seven years and won our last three. The nine years we had Franks and Roof, our ACC record was 6-66; in fact, Franks finished his career 0-30 in the ACC; Roof finished his 0-24. Now that was awful.

Duke isn't the worst team in the conference in that span by record (without going and checking every single team I'm betting UVA holds that honor at 21-42), but of course 2012 conveniently includes our best season, which feels like an eternity ago at this point. I don't think it is time for Cut to retire, but I don't see us peaking again any time soon the way we did in 2011 and 2012. 7 wins feels about like our ceiling at this point.

[devilirium]

I am proud of what Coach Cutcliffe has done for Duke football. It’s more than I imagined anyone could do. If he retires now, he goes out as one of if not the greatest coaches in Duke football history. I want more. He wants more. There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve.

That said, we’re dead in the water. We may win another couple of games and go to a bowl this year (or even sneak in with five wins) but there’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

I’m certainly not convinced that a new head coach will do that much better but we’ve got to inject some hope into the program even if it turns out to be false hope.

Age will probably force Cutcliffe’s retirement in the next two or three years anyway. Wouldn’t it be best for all if he just announces his retirement before the Wake or Miami game? I think he’ll go out with a lot more glory now than if he waits two or three years.

When he made the comment that "we are so close" after that loss the other nite--it was the last straw for me.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Duke isn't the worst team in the conference in that span by record (without going and checking every single team I'm betting UVA holds that honor at 21-42), but of course 2012 conveniently includes our best season, which feels like an eternity ago at this point. I don't think it is time for Cut to retire, but I don't see us peaking again any time soon the way we did in 2011 and 2012. 7 wins feels about like our ceiling at this point.

Maybe 2013? (but I agree with your bigger point)

[Acymetric]

Maybe 2013? (but I agree with your bigger point)

Oops...yes I time shifted the years a little bit. I was thinking the 10-2 year was 2012 and the 9-3 year was the year prior, but it was actually 10-2 in 2013 and 9-3 the year after (2014). Still feels like a long, long time ago though.

[scottdude8]

Didn't we have a similar thread a while back about if Cut was on the "hot seat"? And wasn't the answer the same, a pretty clear and resounding "NO!"?

Yes this year has been a rollercoaster, and a tad disappointing. But it's a testament to what Cut is done that, as Duke football fans, we can even BE disappointed! The short memory of sports fans is pretty incredible. When I stepped onto campus in 2008, we had four games in the previous FOUR SEASONS. Then we won four in Cut's first season alone!

Duke Football is always going to have a limited ceiling because of the limited local fan base (case and point, how the stadium on Saturday night looked to be a majority Irish fans), "second-fiddle" status to the basketball program, and decades of a bad reputation. But now we're also a program that is going bowling more often than not. If someone had told us that would be Cut's effect 10 years ago, many would've offered him a lifetime deal!

Just think of it this way (a thought experiment that I find very useful throughout sports fandom, for instance among the segment of Michigan fans who want to fire Jim Harbaugh): who is out there that would conceivably take the job and do better than Cut? I'd be shocked if anyone could offer up a name that A) would be legitimately interested in the job and B) a majority on this board would agree would quickly improve the program past where Cut has taken it.

This thread is reactionary nonsense to another disappointing loss. We can be disappointed, we can be frustrated, sure... but the lack of appreciation for what Cut has done turning around what was unarguably the worst program in power-5 football is disheartening.

[sagegrouse]

Duke isn't the worst team in the conference in that span by record (without going and checking every single team I'm betting UVA holds that honor at 21-42), but of course 2012 conveniently includes our best season, which feels like an eternity ago at this point. I don't think it is time for Cut to retire, but I don't see us peaking again any time soon the way we did in 2011 and 2012. 7 wins feels about like our ceiling at this point.

I don't take umbrage at your use of the word "conveniently," but let me add to my post. The best season was 2013. I intentionally went a year earlier to 2012. I did leave out the first four Cut seasons -- which were 1-7, 3-5, 1-7, 1-7 -- as part of the start-up process. But, in any event, in those four worst years, Cut won as many ACC games as Franks-Roof did in nine years. (And Fred Goldsmith won eight ACC games in five years, five of them in year one, before he lost his crackerjack O and D coordinators.)

My post was long enough as it was.

[dm9e24]

This was said either in this thread or another that the reason we were so abysmal in football was total apathy by the administration and extremely poor hires after the Spurrier years. Years that, by the way, matched what Cut has done with much worse facilities and school support. And year's when they were bringing in temporary bleachers to accommodate fans. I am pretty sure the alumni base was the same then as it is now. When you put a great product on the field, fans come.
I don't think this thread is a knee-jerk reaction to another disappointing loss. It is the way we are losing and more a reflection of the disappointment over the last 6 years. It is a reflection of how poorly the program seems to be run these days. Cut doesn't seem to be developing players or his staff. That reflects poor management. But I don't think he should be run off. Just start showing some improvement. The high mark of the program was 2013. It's been 11 or 12 years since he "resurrected' the worse program in America. Shouldn't there be some level of sustainability now. I don't remember George Welsh being run off, but maybe he was. I do remember he having UVa in the top 10 in America and having something like 12 or 13 straight 7 win seasons. He was consistent as hell. And if there was a Coastal division back then, I am sure he would have won it more than every 6 years. I'll take that from our current staff. And if that were happening, these threads wouldn't exist
As far as accomplishments, in today's world you can be 1 game under .500 and still go to a bowl game. So lower tier bowl games after 11 years isn't something to shout from the roof tops. But it is better than the post Spurrier years. Who, as someone else said, didn't go to a bowl game with a 7-3 record in his tenure.
The ACC is so weak that the defending National Champions can't stay in the top 4 despite being undefeated.
Just manage your staff better with more seasoned and experienced coaches and put a more consistent product on the field. I think that is all most people want.
This coming from a poster who has stuck with the program for 55 years.

[wsb3]

Duke considered dropping down in football in the late 1960s, early 1970s although I do not think it was ever a strong option. But a lot of the younger faculty members were infatuated with the idea.

Interesting Jim. I never knew this...

[flyingdutchdevil]

...if we are guaranteed a coach who can put us in the Top 25 on a year-in, year-out basis and stay at Duke for a while. The chances of the first happening are slim. The chances of both happening are none.

Cut sacrificed a lot, including joining a school with a bigger fan base, more money, and more exposure. He brought Duke from "worse than awful" to "okay". And he stayed! If a coach comes in and turns Duke into a top 25 team, he's leaving for the Big10 or the SEC.

[devildeac]

I am aware I’m chiming in on a family discussion at which I’m a tolerated guest but . . .

Guys, be happy with your coach.

At Virginia we pushed out a wonderful coach - George Welsh - earlier than he wanted. He’d taken us from embarrassment to regular bowl appearances and parity with our rival, but his (in retrospect masterful) management of boosters and admissions standards wasn’t getting us the players or the records we’d begun to believe we deserved.

And then began dark, dark years for our program. Mendenhall has us back on an upswing, but the London and Groh years cost the program a great deal.

Good/interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. Lot of well-spoken/informed/mannerly/analytical UVA posters here. You're quite welcome/appreciated here.

[devilirium]

Just think of it this way (a thought experiment that I find very useful throughout sports fandom, for instance among the segment of Michigan fans who want to fire Jim Harbaugh): who is out there that would conceivably take the job and do better than Cut? I'd be shocked if anyone could offer up a name that A) would be legitimately interested in the job and B) a majority on this board would agree would quickly improve the program past where Cut has taken it.

This thread is reactionary nonsense to another disappointing loss. We can be disappointed, we can be frustrated, sure... but the lack of appreciation for what Cut has done turning around what was unarguably the worst program in power-5 football is disheartening.

There's about 3 million ways that Duke is appreciative. The fans have lost some perspective, to be sure, but managing expectations is part of the deal. The Coastal has rarely, if ever, been weaker. Once the university was prodded into re-investing in the program (or as Cut would say "they got back in the football business"), it was only a matter of time that they would be attracting worthwhile candidates. The search for Cut yielded bigger names despite the fact that Admiral Alleva was running it.

And, of course, it's easy to hide behind the argument that no one could've done it better than Cut when we weren't able to see the alternative.

[Devilsforlife]

I want Cut to remain as HC, but he needs to fix the offense, and consider making changes to the coaching staff on that side of the ball. We have not put a good product on the field on offense for 4 consecutive seasons now.

I'd argue the program as a whole has never been the same since the 2015 Miami debacle. We played with a swagger from 2012-Miami 2015, but lost our edge that night, and have yet to regain it.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

This thread is reactionary nonsense to another disappointing loss. We can be disappointed, we can be frustrated, sure... but the lack of appreciation for what Cut has done turning around what was unarguably the worst program in power-5 football is disheartening.

And, of course, it's easy to hide behind the argument that no one could've done it better than Cut when we weren't able to see the alternative.

You must be skimming the comments pretty quickly, because I have yet to see A SINGLE POSTER showing a lack of appreciation for what Cut has done...and while I stated on both forums that I am against a hot seat assumption or a retirement, I must point out that almost everybody agrees on what Cut has accomplished. There is one partial, very partial, naysayer on that front, but nothing for you to get "disheartened" over. Go re read. You'll see there is universal, or almost universal, love for Cut, but some disagreement on how to move forward. In fact I wouldn't even call it disagreement so much as asking a few uncomfortable questions. If we can't do that, why have a forum.

I want Cut to remain as HC, but he needs to fix the offense, and consider making changes to the coaching staff on that side of the ball. We have not put a good product on the field on offense for 4 consecutive seasons now.

I'd argue the program as a whole has never been the same since the 2015 Miami debacle. We played with a swagger from 2012-Miami 2015, but lost our edge that night, and have yet to regain it.

I worried about this at the time...I mean, immediately...I wondered if that event popped the bubble of the 2013 high. When we got a break on officiating on Indiana's FG in the Pinstripe Bowl...that FG...I thought maybe we cancelled the Miami curse. But you bring up a very valid concern.

[Bob Green]

I'd argue the program as a whole has never been the same since the 2015 Miami debacle.

Offensive Line Coach John Latina retired after the 2015 season. I’d argue the OL has never been the same since.

[devilirium]

^HerebeforeCoachK,

I think that we'we're on the same side here. Cut needs to continue to re-assess the offense, gameplanning, etc. I created some confusion by not sufficiently highlighting the quote of a previous poster. My opining really begins with " there are 3 million reasons".

[Devilsforlife]

Offensive Line Coach John Latina retired after the 2015 season. I’d argue the OL has never been the same since.

Latina was a huge loss. We also lost Montgomery, who was a much more effective OC than Zac Roper, after 2015. We moved the ball better with Thomas Sirk than we did with top 10 pick Daniel Jones for most of his Duke career. Montgomery's work developing the WRs was also very good.

[Bob Green]

Latina was a huge loss. We also lost Montgomery, who was a much more effective OC than Zac Roper, after 2015. We moved the ball better with Thomas Sirk than we did with top 10 pick Daniel Jones for most of his Duke career. Montgomery's work developing the WRs was also very good.

We are on the same page...it is time for Coach Cutcliffe to take a long, hard look at his staff. The OL Coach and OC need upgrading.

[Acymetric]

We are on the same page...it is time for Coach Cutcliffe to take a long, hard look at his staff. The OL Coach and OC need upgrading.

Credit where credit is due, we did get what I believe is a real and much needed upgrade at WR coach this year. Agreed that additional changes on the offensive side are probably warranted.