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  1. #241
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I have never felt comfortable saying or writing “had had”. Anyone know the definitive word on this?
    Construction should be correct -- past perfect verb in a subordinate clause modifying a principal clause in the past tense. (Don't you find it amazing that, my having been schooled in such matters, I lived to have a normal adulthood?)
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Selection of a football coach by a school like Duke needs to be quite strategic. If we hire the best young coach in the country -- let's say -- he is likely to depart for greener pastures after three of four years.
    But that means that he was successful at Duke on his way. I'm ok with that, assuming that Duke fights to keep him as well.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  3. #243
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Construction should be correct -- past perfect verb in a subordinate clause modifying a principal clause in the past tense. (Don't you find it amazing that, my having been schooled in such matters, I lived to have a normal adulthood?)
    That IS quite amazing! And your first sentence was bewildering.

  4. #244
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I agree with your post.

    Selection of a football coach by a school like Duke needs to be quite strategic. If we hire the best young coach in the country -- let's say -- he is likely to depart for greener pastures after three of four years.

    Cutcliffe was ideal as a prospective long-term coach. He was an accomplished coach in his late 50's who had had health problems and who had demonstrated loyalty to both schools and staff. Trouble is, there are not many such examples of an older coach with such credentials. One example from prior years, who was suggested for Duke but we failed to act, was George Welsh, who went from being a successful coach at Navy to breathing life into a moribund Virginia football program -- the eight previous UVa coaches had losing records.

    Anyway, some thoughts.

    Kindly,
    Sage Grouse
    'The only coach we have lost to a better program is Spurrier -- but we did recruit Wallace Wade in 1930 from Alabama, where he had been to three Rose Bowls (2-0-1) -- Hah!'
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    But that means that he was successful at Duke on his way. I'm ok with that, assuming that Duke fights to keep him as well.
    I'll also point out (I think I may have already) that this is something we're going to have to deal with sooner rather than later anyway, unless people think Cut is going to continue to coach (effectively) until he is 80. If we're that defeatist about finding a new coach, whether it is in a year, 3 years, or 5 years, we might as well just shut the program down now and save ourselves a bunch of trouble.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I'll refer you to my previous post on this topic. Maybe I should just make it my signature. I still maintain that this is terrible reasoning.



    In addition to the above, I'll also point out that we will likely be looking for a new coach regardless within 3-6 years, as I don't see Cut coaching into his 70s.
    I don't think that "who will replace Cut" is "the worst argument" against ending his tenure.

    Let's be (Carl) Frank. Duke head football coach is a crappy job at best. Little to no university support. Terrible home crowds. A handful of teams in conference that tend to rule the roost. Difficult academic restrictions (compared to some schools).

    You want to add to that list "ran out of town the first coach to win a bowl game in 60 years?"

    You have to ask who the heck would want the job. If we run off the architect of the best run we've had in half a century, we deserve whatever comes next.

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I don't think that "who will replace Cut" is "the worst argument" against ending his tenure.

    Let's be (Carl) Frank. Duke head football coach is a crappy job at best. Little to no university support. Terrible home crowds. A handful of teams in conference that tend to rule the roost. Difficult academic restrictions (compared to some schools).

    You want to add to that list "ran out of town the first coach to win a bowl game in 60 years?"

    You have to ask who the heck would want the job. If we run off the architect of the best run we've had in half a century, we deserve whatever comes next.
    Very well said. Kind of hard to argue with.

  7. #247
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I don't think that "who will replace Cut" is "the worst argument" against ending his tenure.

    Let's be (Carl) Frank. Duke head football coach is a crappy job at best. Little to no university support. Terrible home crowds. A handful of teams in conference that tend to rule the roost. Difficult academic restrictions (compared to some schools).

    You want to add to that list "ran out of town the first coach to win a bowl game in 60 years?"

    You have to ask who the heck would want the job. If we run off the architect of the best run we've had in half a century, we deserve whatever comes next.
    The curse of Red Wilson.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  8. #248
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    The curse of Red Wilson.
    I mean honestly it's all been downhill starting with the 1939 Rose Bowl. 🤣

  9. #249
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Very well said. Kind of hard to argue with.
    I could argue with it. (And will.)
    Mtn Devil's premise is that Duke runs Cut out of town, yet the title of this thread is not "Let's fire Cut", it's simply asking if it is time for him to retire. (That answer is no.)
    The difference between leaving on your own terms and being "run out of town" is huge. Cut is not being run off.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    I could argue with it. (And will.)
    Mtn Devil's premise is that Duke runs Cut out of town, yet the title of this thread is not "Let's fire Cut", it's simply asking if it is time for him to retire. (That answer is no.)
    The difference between leaving on your own terms and being "run out of town" is huge. Cut is not being run off.
    Okay, but you’re only responding to one of the five or six points Mtn.Devil made.

  11. #251
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Okay, but you’re only responding to one of the five or six points Mtn.Devil made.
    His other points are outdated, by a decade. I'm responding to the most recent and worthy one. (PS, I will always be proud of the difficult academic restrictions...that one is timeless and worthy and we've been proven successful with them in place. It does not add to Duke HC being a "crappy job at best")
    Last edited by CameronBornAndBred; Yesterday at 06:16 PM.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  12. #252
    As a reasonable point of comparison Stanford has 32 players in the NFL and Duke has 9, many from the 2013 era. Of the Duke 9 less than half are starters.

    Cut has narrowed the comparison with Stanford by miles and I pinch myself that Duke isn't where they were not too long ago.

    To be blunt why can't Duke get players as good as Stanford? Seems to me this is a first stop in evaluating a program. Assistant coaches come and go (hopefully) and so do players. The top teams have a half dozen stars with the rest having a high floor. Not that we need to be the top but like Stanford the Top 20 doesn't have to be an unreasonable expectation.

    Don't know of inherent reasons why can't Duke be the Stanford of the East except that it's an hour and a half farther from the beach.

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by richmclean View Post
    As a reasonable point of comparison Stanford has 32 players in the NFL and Duke has 9, many from the 2013 era. Of the Duke 9 less than half are starters.

    Cut has narrowed the comparison with Stanford by miles and I pinch myself that Duke isn't where they were not too long ago.

    To be blunt why can't Duke get players as good as Stanford? Seems to me this is a first stop in evaluating a program. Assistant coaches come and go (hopefully) and so do players. The top teams have a half dozen stars with the rest having a high floor. Not that we need to be the top but like Stanford the Top 20 doesn't have to be an unreasonable expectation.

    Don't know of inherent reasons why can't Duke be the Stanford of the East except that it's an hour and a half farther from the beach.
    Here are a few:

    1. Less competition geographically. Simply not as many schools in the West as in the East (number overall and number of high academic schools).

    2. The weather. While is was freezing across the country last week, it was in the 70's here. It's never that hot, never that cold. It only rains in winter.

    3. Stanford has a better overall athletic reputation than Duke (or any most other schools in general). Stanford has won 123 NCAA team national championships, the most of any NCAA D1 school. Stanford has won them in 20 different sports.

    3a. Which means that Stanford spends more money on athletics.

    4. Silicon Valley is a huge draw for the STEM athlete thinking beyond a professional athletic career.

    For the record, being out here, I'm not a Stanford fan.

    9F
    Bucket List - Throw a party when Duke MBB has a winning record against Carolina.

  14. #254
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    Here are a few:


    4. Silicon Valley is a huge draw for the STEM athlete thinking beyond a professional athletic career.

    9F
    And conversely Stanford is a huge draw for Silicon Valley Sugar Daddies, who have funded Stanford athletics to a level unreachable by Duke or darn near anyone else.

  15. #255
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    Here are a few:

    1. Less competition geographically. Simply not as many schools in the West as in the East (number overall and number of high academic schools).

    2. The weather. While is was freezing across the country last week, it was in the 70's here. It's never that hot, never that cold. It only rains in winter.

    3. Stanford has a better overall athletic reputation than Duke (or any most other schools in general). Stanford has won 123 NCAA team national championships, the most of any NCAA D1 school. Stanford has won them in 20 different sports.

    3a. Which means that Stanford spends more money on athletics.

    4. Silicon Valley is a huge draw for the STEM athlete thinking beyond a professional athletic career.

    For the record, being out here, I'm not a Stanford fan.

    9F
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    And conversely Stanford is a huge draw for Silicon Valley Sugar Daddies, who have funded Stanford athletics to a level unreachable by Duke or darn near anyone else.
    I believe every single athletic scholarship at Stanford is backed by an endowment.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  16. #256
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I believe every single athletic scholarship at Stanford is backed by an endowment.
    And I believe I have read that assistant coaches are paid very well. Part of this is out of necessity for them to be able to live in the very expensive area around Stanford - you don't want assistant coaches who are working ridiculous hours to have to commute an hour each way. But they are also paid well to help attract and retain good assistants. I believe Duke has made major strides in this area but likely is still behind its peers.

  17. #257
    My questions had to do with drawing the best players to Duke.

    Quote Originally Posted by kako View Post
    Here are a few:

    1. Less competition geographically. Simply not as many schools in the West as in the East (number overall and number of high academic schools).

    —-> Not sure it matters to the players. Schools recruit nationally.
    2. The weather. While is was freezing across the country last week, it was in the 70's here. It's never that hot, never that cold.
    —-> See #1 above. Also Durham average hi is 72 while Palo Alto is 58.
    3. Stanford has a better overall athletic reputation than Duke (or any most other schools in general). Stanford has won 123 NCAA team national championships, the most of any NCAA D1 school. Stanford has won them in 20 different sports.

    —-> don’t see how the fencing teams performance should matter all that much to future NFL studs.

    3a. Which means that Stanford spends more money on athletics.
    —> So why does it matter to the best players how much is spent given the teams have great facilities- which Duke has now. Thanks to Cut and others.

    4. Silicon Valley is a huge draw for the STEM athlete thinking beyond a professional athletic career.
    —> Post college recruitment is geography independent. Duke guides kids to summer internships on Wall St., DC, RTP etc.

    For the record, being out here, I'm not a Stanford fan.
    —> Dunno maybe Stanford is the exception but not sure I’m convinced we have hit the glass ceiling.
    Duke basketball was last in the ACC all four years I was there. Heard a lot of stuff back then too.
    But there’s only one K.

    9F

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