James Wiseman Ineligible

[freshmanjs]

It was only afterwards that Penny was appointed the head coach at Memphis. Nobody could have predicted that at the time he helped James. Nor was he breaking any rules during the time he was helping James.

Except for the fact that just about everyone who was paying attention predicted it at the time. There have been rumors all along that Penny would become the Memphis coach and bring Wiseman with him. That was his best angle to get the job.

[YmoBeThere]

A little convenient to ignore the four straight seasons in the second weekend of the tournament.

Sure, he's a turd of a slimy coach, but you can't discount those seasons as a part of Memphis's overall relevance and as a factor in recruiting just because we all hate the coach.

I mean, I guess you can, but it seems like you are willfully ignoring the obvious.

Those 4 straight were 5 years ago.

What I do find interesting is everyone ignoring the institutional history at Memphis. Between 5 Dana Kirk and 1 Calipari season being vacated, the weirdness that Pastner went through, you would think they would be more careful in their next hiring. Apparently none of the above mattered.

[MChambers]

Before the NCAA rules Wiseman ineligible, shouldn’t they at least make certain Penny didn’t help any non-athletes relocate into the Memphis area?

According to Gary Parrish, that may be an argument: "Geoff Calkins, a columnist at The Daily Memphian, wrote late Friday that one possible defense could be that Hardaway has helped dozens, if not hundreds, of families over the years -- both families of athletes and non-athletes."

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...is-will-fight/

[devildeac]

According to Gary Parrish, that may be an argument: "Geoff Calkins, a columnist at The Daily Memphian, wrote late Friday that one possible defense could be that Hardaway has helped dozens, if not hundreds, of families over the years -- both families of athletes and non-athletes."

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...is-will-fight/

Why not? It worked before with 23 years of cheating and lying by another ncaa paradigm.

[jwillfan]

https://twitter.com/PiranhaRGJ/statu...25843566780416

Too long to quote but here are a few good snippets:

"Under the NCAA Constitution, only President Rudd can determine whether James is eligible—not the NCAA, which tries to bully and intimidate its members to do what it says, but President Rudd has told them to pound salt. So James IS eligible unless and until he says he's not"

"Both James, Penny, and the University have actionable claims against the NCAA for breach of contract and tortious interference with contract. James' mother has a claim for invasion of privacy. Any claims will be tried in state court in Memphis. The NCAA would get hammered"

[sagegrouse]

https://twitter.com/PiranhaRGJ/statu...25843566780416

Too long to quote but here are a few good snippets:

"Under the NCAA Constitution, only President Rudd can determine whether James is eligible—not the NCAA, which tries to bully and intimidate its members to do what it says, but President Rudd has told them to pound salt. So James IS eligible unless and until he says he's not"

"Both James, Penny, and the University have actionable claims against the NCAA for breach of contract and tortious interference with contract. James' mother has a claim for invasion of privacy. Any claims will be tried in state court in Memphis. The NCAA would get hammered"

Oh, my! So much nonsense being spouted. The NCAA also has the power to expel Memphis State, and the state courts of Tennessee don't get a vote.

[lotusland]

Seems unfair for the kid to be ineligible due to an arrangement between his family and a HS coach. On the other hand, Wiseman probably would have been drafted this year if not for the NBA rule and the pros wouldn’t be the least bit bothered by it. The simple solution is the change the NBA rule. It’s strange to me that these seedy arrangements always draw criticism for the NCAA amateur model vs the NBA rule that causes these pro ready kids to go to college.

[ChillinDuke]

You are putting words into the mouths of posters that were never said. No one said Hardaway is an also-ran. The point was that he is not some huge name weighing heavily on the minds of current high school kids like it would be if, say, Lebron James were to retire in two years and decide to go into coaching. In that case I could easily see James immediately getting the top recruiting class in the nation. But a 20-years-since-he’s-been-relevant Hardaway is not in that same universe.

Also, Chris Mullin and Patrick Ewing have not had anything even approaching the top recruiting class in the nation, so why are you listing them as somehow supporting your point? They don’t. And Howard at Michigan is doing alright so far, but not anything like what Hardaway has done in getting the top class in the nation.

And Michigan is in a category well above Memphis. They play in one of the two best basketball conferences in the country and they had huge success immediately prior to Howard taking over. Memphis is below Michigan’s level on both counts. So no, I don’t think your comments support the point you are trying to make and certainly do not indicate that mine or FerryFor50’s comments about this situation are “laughable”.

I didn't reply to you or FerryFor50. However, I stand by my fundamental belief that Penny is a legend in and around Memphis (which Jim Sumner already said) and was a cultural icon in the NBA on a darling Orlando Magic team in the heart of the NBA's heyday as it rose to cultural dominance in the 90s. I fail to see why he shouldn't be weighing on recruits minds - unless you have some sort of actual experience in the matter which I'm misunderstanding or overlooking. These kids eat, breath, and sleep basketball. A couple YouTube videos of him and Shaq, some Google searches, a Little Penny commercial, some philanthropy in the state of Tennessee, an AAU Coach with a track record, relationships throughout the basketball community starting at a young age...why can't Penny be a visible, highly relevant recruiter and coach?

And the point isn't that these other former player/coaches had the #1 recruiting class in the nation. They were highly relevant recruiters on day 1, despite being well past their prime playing days. That was my point. And I believe those are relevant data points compared to Penny.

Michigan, yeah, probably higher profile than Memphis. But again, that's missing the forest for the trees. Just because you found a dead tree or two to latch onto, doesn't mean my forest is dead.

People wanted Penny back before Memphis got Tubby. This could have been building up for many years.

- Chillin

[Wahoo2000]

I didn't reply to you or FerryFor50. However, I stand by my fundamental belief that Penny is a legend in and around Memphis (which Jim Sumner already said) and was a cultural icon in the NBA on a darling Orlando Magic team in the heart of the NBA's heyday as it rose to cultural dominance in the 90s. I fail to see why he shouldn't be weighing on recruits minds - unless you have some sort of actual experience in the matter which I'm misunderstanding or overlooking. These kids eat, breath, and sleep basketball. A couple YouTube videos of him and Shaq, some Google searches, a Little Penny commercial, some philanthropy in the state of Tennessee, an AAU Coach with a track record, relationships throughout the basketball community starting at a young age...why can't Penny be a visible, highly relevant recruiter and coach?

And the point isn't that these other former player/coaches had the #1 recruiting class in the nation. They were highly relevant recruiters on day 1, despite being well past their prime playing days. That was my point. And I believe those are relevant data points compared to Penny.

Michigan, yeah, probably higher profile than Memphis. But again, that's missing the forest for the trees. Just because you found a dead tree or two to latch onto, doesn't mean my forest is dead.

People wanted Penny back before Memphis got Tubby. This could have been building up for many years.

- Chillin

The bolded above has been a WAAAAAY undersold component of how Penny was so insanely successful recruiting right out of the gate. Everybody seems to want to place his success as like 90% due to his NBA fame and legendary status around Memphis, and 10% based on the connections he made on the AAU circuit. I'd argue it is much more 50/50, though the counterargument is that his AAU connections were enhanced by his fame/status. Perhaps something of a chicken-egg argument regarding his current recruiting prowess. You also make a good point, btw in regards to the availability of highlights on youtube, etc. Other posters would do well to remember today's youths are much more likely to be aware of great players from 20-30-40 years ago than youths of the 80s/90s were since there was no option for on-demand info and highlights like there is now.

Last - if people don't think Memphis going to bat for Wiseman will make a massive impact with elite recruits going forward as well... you're nuts. Memphis seems to be formulating a marketing strategy for recruiting regarding targeting kids who have little to no interest in college but are forced to go there. As an aside, I wonder how well that will work when the NBA goes back to letting kids make the jump straight from HS.

[PackMan97]

Last - if people don't think Memphis going to bat for Wiseman will make a massive impact with elite recruits going forward as well... you're nuts. Memphis seems to be formulating a marketing strategy for recruiting regarding targeting kids who have little to no interest in college but are forced to go there. As an aside, I wonder how well that will work when the NBA goes back to letting kids make the jump straight from HS.

So, they'll market to kids who have no interest in college but are forced to go there for 2-3 years instead of 1. Not to mention, kids who go straight to the NBA will know a lot of kids who still need a few years to get to the NBA.

[53n206]

...
Last - if people don't think Memphis going to bat for Wiseman will make a massive impact with elite recruits going forward as well... you're nuts. Memphis seems to be formulating a marketing strategy for recruiting regarding targeting kids who have little to no interest in college but are forced to go there. As an aside, I wonder how well that will work when the NBA goes back to letting kids make the jump straight from HS.

Must agree re all points above. About kids with no desire to attend college but must to play, hasn't there been a successful example of that in the recent ACC?

[Steven43]

But again, that's missing the forest for the trees. Just because you found a dead tree or two to latch onto, doesn't mean my forest is dead.

Kudos to you, sir, for that was quite creative! Keep up the good work 👍🏻

[MrPoon]

Perhaps this has been covered but Memphis can play him all they want and it may be a nice recruiting trick. The courts may even say he can play for a time.
But rumor has it the NCAA has a big party around March and the NCAA gets to choose who is invited. If a team forfeits all its games because it played an ineligible player, it probably isn’t going to be invited to this famous NCAA party. I’d even wonder if the conference would seed a team for their tournament if the team has zero official wins.

[Steven43]

Must agree re all points above. About kids with no desire to attend college but must to play, hasn't there been a successful example of that in the recent ACC?

We are waiting with bated breath. Who is this mystery example? Nassir Little, maybe?

[Billy Dat]

According to Gary Parrish, that may be an argument: "Geoff Calkins, a columnist at The Daily Memphian, wrote late Friday that one possible defense could be that Hardaway has helped dozens, if not hundreds, of families over the years -- both families of athletes and non-athletes."

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...is-will-fight/

Gary Parrish lives in the northern Mississippi suburbs of Memphis and has a daily sports radio show in the city (in addition to all his work for CBS) so he is a really wired-in authority on this topic. He discussed it on his "CBS Eye on College Basketball Podcast" and it is worth listening to if you want a local perspective on the situation:

https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/e...ge-basketball/ (the 11/10 episode)

Aside from discussing the known facts of the case and the legal issues at hand, Parrish provides interesting insight into the motivation of the school and the mood of the city. The John Calipari era was so successful and generated such excitement in the city that they have been chasing that feeling ever since. As a result, perhaps they didn't ask all of the questions they needed to ask when they hired Penny...because in some strange way, they wanted to feel that excitement again no matter the cost. And, the way they are behaving now, with their adamant fight in the face of pretty overwhelming evidence of rule breaking, backs that up. This year with Wiseman and company is a huge party and they are going to let the party roll on as long as they can. If they have to deal with a notice of allegations and if they have to vacate wins and/or possible conference titles and whatever else they may be able to earn on the court, so be it. For now, the music is on and they are gonna dance. It is a remarkable showdown.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Gary Parrish lives in the northern Mississippi suburbs of Memphis and has a daily sports radio show in the city (in addition to all his work for CBS) so he is a really wired-in authority on this topic. He discussed it on his "CBS Eye on College Basketball Podcast" and it is worth listening to if you want a local perspective on the situation:

https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/e...ge-basketball/ (the 11/10 episode)

Aside from discussing the known facts of the case and the legal issues at hand, Parrish provides interesting insight into the motivation of the school and the mood of the city. The John Calipari era was so successful and generated such excitement in the city that they have been chasing that feeling ever since. As a result, perhaps they didn't ask all of the questions they needed to ask when they hired Penny...because in some strange way, they wanted to feel that excitement again no matter the cost. And, the way they are behaving now, with their adamant fight in the face of pretty overwhelming evidence of rule breaking, backs that up. This year with Wiseman and company is a huge party and they are going to let the party roll on as long as they can. If they have to deal with a notice of allegations and if they have to vacate wins and/or possible conference titles and whatever else they may be able to earn on the court, so be it. For now, the music is on and they are gonna dance. It is a remarkable showdown.

Thanks for all that information and perspective. Much more valuable than all our guesses, assumptions, and anecdotal evidence. Sporkz!

[BD80]

Gary Parrish lives in the northern Mississippi suburbs of Memphis and has a daily sports radio show in the city (in addition to all his work for CBS) so he is a really wired-in authority on this topic. He discussed it on his "CBS Eye on College Basketball Podcast" and it is worth listening to if you want a local perspective on the situation:

https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/e...ge-basketball/ (the 11/10 episode)

... This year with Wiseman and company is a huge party and they are going to let the party roll on as long as they can. If they have to deal with a notice of allegations and if they have to vacate wins and/or possible conference titles and whatever else they may be able to earn on the court, so be it. For now, the music is on and they are gonna dance. It is a remarkable showdown.

There may be a lesson here … (I almost said "value" lesson).

We as fans, particularly us as Duke fans, should take every opportunity we can to celebrate our team and each season.

Even if the Tigers don't go the "The Dance," the Tiger faithful are going to dance.

[Truth&Justise]

What a win-win opportunity for Memphis's opponents. If you win--like Oregon did last night, rather impressively--you can boast about beating the Tigers with all of their future NBA talent. And if you lose, the game is going to be vacated anyway, so no worries!

[kAzE]

What a win-win opportunity for Memphis's opponents. If you win--like Oregon did last night, rather impressively--you can boast about beating the Tigers with all of their future NBA talent. And if you lose, the game is going to be vacated anyway, so no worries!

Does it work that way? I know Memphis' wins will be vacated, but do the losses of their opponents also get erased from the record books? I'm going to go back and look at that 2013 Louisville team's opponent's records to verify this . . .

Edit: I don't believe this is true. We lost to Louisville in the Elite 8 of the NCAA tournament for our 6th loss of the season in 2012-13, and our record still stands at 30-6 for the season in the books.

[PackMan97]

Does it work that way? I know Memphis' wins will be vacated, but do the losses of their opponents also get erased from the record books? I'm going to go back and look at that 2013 Louisville team's opponent's records to verify this . . .

Edit: I don't believe this is true. We lost to Louisville in the Elite 8 of the NCAA tournament for our 6th loss of the season in 2012-13, and our record still stands at 30-6 for the season in the books.

Even if a school cheats, that doesn't mean they will ever get punished.

Besides, vacated wins mean NOTHING. The games were still won by the cheaters. The agony of defeat felt by the losers. Even the school record books rarely reflect the vacated nature of those games except with an asterisk.