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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Seriously. At the point, why would any "star" choose to play with Harden? He's an amazing talent, but his style of play is ball hogging, zero defense, and junk fouls, combined with crap attitude.

    He can be fun to watch when he's on, but I would not want him as the centerpiece of my franchise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Harden's competitive juice seems to extend as far as his line on the box score.
    it's just useless carping from a fan, but Harden's style of play and therefore his juiced box score lines are so heavily dependent on refs giving him shooting fouls that he obviously doesn't deserve that he wouldn't seem nearly so good if refs called his rampant charging for what it is. He'd still be a star, and maybe even an All-Star, but it's hard to know b/c he gets 10 extra FTs per game and all the perks that go along with how defenders have to change how they play him. I detest watching him play.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Nobody with any knowledge of the sport had that viewpoint. From the beginning of his NBA career Jordan was an elite defender, a good passer, an elite rebounder for a guard, excellent at getting steals, and arguably the most competitive player who has ever lived.
    As someone who was alive in the 80s and heard people say precisely those things, i'll just go ahead and verify that people held precisely the view that you claim nobody held.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Pippen was actually a fairly limited offensive player. He was an elite defender, yes, and a good rebounder for his position, but somewhat average in several other areas.
    It’s laughable that Jordan chose Pippen over Larry Bird for his starting five. That just shows Jordan’s bias towards his longtime teammate, as Pippen was absolutely not in Bird’s class as an overall player.
    Jordan showed his poor assessment skills again recently when he said Stephen Curry is not a Hall of Fame player. Jordan was an all-time great player, but has always been mediocre at assessing talent.
    Pippen was not a fairly limited offensive player, that's laughable. He was not nearly as good as Jordan, that is undeniable, but your claim is absurd. Pippen spent the entirety of the peak of his career playing alongside Jordan so we'll never have a decent comparison, but in the years that Jordan was not with the Bulls, Pippen was clearly their #1 scoring option and he was quite good at it. I agree with your assertion about MJ's view of Pippen over Bird and about his talent assessment skills though.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    As someone who was alive in the 80s and heard people say precisely those things, i'll just go ahead and verify that people held precisely the view that you claim nobody held.



    Pippen was not a fairly limited offensive player, that's laughable. He was not nearly as good as Jordan, that is undeniable, but your claim is absurd.
    I disagree with you about Pippen’s offensive game. And I’m far from alone. I have heard several respected commentators and some players say much the same.

    Pippen was a great athlete who could score well around the basket and was a monster leaper who got lots of dunks and putbacks and he was good at making shots from fairly close range. But he was not a good jumpshooter, he wasn’t great at making well-guarded jumpers, he wasn’t particularly savvy when he had the ball, and he wasn’t a particularly good passer.

    People say that Michael Jordan benefited from playing with Pippen, and he did, but Pippen benefited much more by playing with Jordan.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I disagree with you about Pippen’s offensive game. And I’m far from alone. I have heard several respected commentators and some players say much the same.

    Pippen was a great athlete who could score well around the basket and was a monster leaper who got lots of dunks and putbacks and he was good at making shots from fairly close range. But he was not a good jumpshooter, he wasn’t great at making well-guarded jumpers, he wasn’t particularly savvy when he had the ball, and he wasn’t a particularly good passer.

    People say that Michael Jordan benefited from playing with Pippen, and he did, but Pippen benefited much more by playing with Jordan.
    My memory was that Pippen was a good jump shooter and I thought he was a better 3-point shooter than Jordan. (They shot a very similar percentage, but Pippen shot more.) They shot a very similar 50% from the field and both averaged over 5 assists per game. Jordan was a far superior free throw shooter, but Pippen shot 70% for his career, in no way limiting him offensively. Pippen was even better on the defensive end as a 10-time all defensive player, but I think you might be mixing him up with Rodman if you are thinking he was limited offensively. He was a 7-time all-NBA player and one of the most well rounded players ever. He was in no way limited offensively, in my opinion, and his play making was a major reason for that.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    My memory was that Pippen was a good jump shooter and I thought he was a better 3-point shooter than Jordan. (They shot a very similar percentage, but Pippen shot more.) They shot a very similar 50% from the field and both averaged over 5 assists per game. Jordan was a far superior free throw shooter, but Pippen shot 70% for his career, in no way limiting him offensively. Pippen was even better on the defensive end as a 10-time all defensive player, but I think you might be mixing him up with Rodman if you are thinking he was limited offensively. He was a 7-time all-NBA player and one of the most well rounded players ever. He was in no way limited offensively, in my opinion, and his play making was a major reason for that.
    Don’t get me wrong, Pippen was a GREAT player. I think it just really rubbed me the wrong way to see Jordan choose Pippen over Larry Bird for his all-time team. I mean, that’s just silly.

    Yeah, I know, he has to pick his homey and all that. And, yes, Jordan has shown himself to be a very poor judge of talent. But come on, Bird was one of the five greatest players who ever picked up a basketball. A true savant of the hardwood like no other. But anyway...

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Don’t get me wrong, Pippen was a GREAT player. I think it just really rubbed me the wrong way to see Jordan choose Pippen over Larry Bird for his all-time team. I mean, that’s just silly.

    Yeah, I know, he has to pick his homey and all that. And, yes, Jordan has shown himself to be a very poor judge of talent. But come on, Bird was one of the five greatest players who ever picked up a basketball. A true savant of the hardwood like no other. But anyway...
    Although I think Pippen was a far superior defensive player than Bird (who was sneakily effective and a great rebounder), you will get no argument from me that Bird is an easy pick over Pippen, unless you have to pick him because he was your teammate, or you have a grudge because you couldn’t beat his teams in his prime.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  7. #87
    Just have to plug my TWolves real quick: beating the Nets in OT sans Durant is no huge deal (though beating Kyrie when he's playing like he did the other night IS pretty impressive), and neither is beating the brakes off of the woeful Hornets tonight. What IS a big deal: how Karl-Anthony Towns is playing. If this is the KAT that we're going to see this year, that changes a lot. He's been absolutely brilliant in literally ever aspect of the game so far.

    Against the Nets, he went 36/14/3/3/3, hit 7/11 from three (some of those off the dribble, which is filthy from a center), and was legitimately fantastic on defense. With 7 min left tonight, he's got 37/14/8/4/2 on 13/18 from the floor and 4/7 from 3. YIKES. I had pretty much counted out the playoffs as a possibility for Minny this year: they're one or two players away, the West is impossible, etc. All of that is still true, but if Towns is consistently playing this well, that significantly changes the equations. He's just absolutely unguardable anywhere on the floor right now one-on-one, and we're playing a 5-out pace and space style so far that makes people decide if they're going to get burned by Towns in iso or if they're going to double and let him pick them apart. Exciting to see the development!

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldBattleship View Post
    Against the Nets, he went 36/14/3/3/3, hit 7/11 from three (some of those off the dribble, which is filthy from a center), and was legitimately fantastic on defense. With 7 min left tonight, he's got 37/14/8/4/2 on 13/18 from the floor and 4/7 from 3. YIKES.
    Holy lord, I had no idea Towns had the potential to shoot like that from three, and off the dribble no less! Honestly, I have hardly watched him play, either in “college” (questionable to refer to it thusly for Kentucky basketball players) or the NBA. Once he chose to go to Kentucky I purposely tried to avoid him thereafter.

    If Minnesota still had Tyus Jones I’d be rooting for Towns to be a good player, but since he left, well, not so much. Happy for you, though, as a Timberwolves fan. Good luck the rest of the way.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Holy lord, I had no idea Towns had the potential to shoot like that from three, and off the dribble no less! Honestly, I have hardly watched him play, either in “college” (questionable to refer to it thusly for Kentucky basketball players) or the NBA. Once he chose to go to Kentucky I purposely tried to avoid him thereafter.

    If Minnesota still had Tyus Jones I’d be rooting for Towns to be a good player, but since he left, well, not so much. Happy for you, though, as a Timberwolves fan. Good luck the rest of the way.
    Yeah, he's got the full arsenal of shots right now. This was my favorite from the Nets game (not off the dribble, but that jab was PRETTY). He's still able to be a complete bruiser in the post and is pretty confident on the drive if he has room, as well. If he's figured out how to read the defense and make more than just basic passes when things are zoned up, he legitimately has a chance to be one of the best five or so offensive players in the league. We'll see if the defense holds up; he's been good so far, but I'm less confident that that's real than I am with the offensive barrage.

    Anyway, thanks! Been a long run of being either REALLY terrible or being an ok team that visibly hates each other (the Jimmy Butler year). Would be nice to have a fun season, that's for sure. We miss Tyus every day, though.

  10. #90
    Trae Young with 39/9/7 tonight on 25 shots. We'll see how things shake out as we move forward, but the guy has been absolutely lights out so far this year. The matchup with Hawks/Philly on Monday is going to be a fascinating contrast in styles.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldBattleship View Post
    Trae Young with 39/9/7 tonight on 25 shots. We'll see how things shake out as we move forward, but the guy has been absolutely lights out so far this year. The matchup with Hawks/Philly on Monday is going to be a fascinating contrast in styles.
    Trae is a human cheat code! That was the call by the Hawks announcer last night after he hit an absurd 3 to ice the game. You can see it at the 5:15 mark below... enjoy!



    -Jason "Hawks are 2-0 and I am feeling really good about my over-wins bet" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post

    -Jason "Hawks are 2-0 and I am feeling really good about my over-wins bet" Evans
    And John Collins hasn’t really gone off, yet, like we know he can and will. It’s an exciting time to be a Hawks fan! My only concern with the Hawks is that they are going to be too good too soon to get another high draft pick.

    Jabari has been surprisingly good so far, too. Pretty efficient on offense, which is a nice change for him. Cam has looked exactly like what he looked like at Duke: doing good stuff on the defensive end while shooting dreadfully. But the Hawks have enough interesting players on the wing that Cam can come along slowly and it’s no big deal.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Outside Philly
    Some early season fireworks with Embiid and KAT getting into it pretty good. Simmons ends up on top of Towns with him in a headlock and Embiid does a little Rocky on his way out the tunnel. Really quite the KAT fight...
    Last edited by bundabergdevil; 10-30-2019 at 09:16 PM.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    That sure was a thing. Suspensions incoming, I assume.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    Really quite the KAT fight...
    BOOOO. Haha, anyway, that was a bizarre one. The TWolves match up REALLY poorly with this Philly team (probably our worst matchup in the league this year), and Embiid has been getting under KAT's skin for years. Not surprised to see the frustration come out here. Definitely saw the downside of the 1 big/3 wing/1 guard system Minny is running this year in this game. If you run that system, your wings had better be GOOD in order to take advantage of the mismatch against Horford on offense and to deal with the mismatch with Horford on D. And with Embiid being one of the few defenders who can make KAT look mortal (and Horford one of the other few defenders who qualify), the Wolves just don't have enough ways to create offense on the floor at any given time, since none of our wings really can create off the bounce. Maybe Kawhi will get bored in LA and want to experience Minneapolis?

  16. #96
    Speaking of wild things going down in the NBA, on a night where very few people in either city were likely watching, the Rockets and Wizards played a mid-World-Series-game-7 NBA game and the final score was 159-158. Harden had 59 on 32 shots and 9 assts (only 18 FTAs today!), Beal had 46 on 20 shots(!?!?!?) to go with 8 assists and 6 rebounds, Russ had a triple double because of course he did, the Wizards' 4-man bench went for 64 on only 36 shots, and Clint Capela was good but committed the most blatant uncalled travel I think I've ever seen. Just a crazy, crazy game, and, again, in the middle of Game 7 of the World Series between the teams in their respective cities.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Steph Curry with a broken left hand. Getting close to that team just going full tank mode.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada (Ohio born and raised)
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Steph Curry with a broken left hand. Getting close to that team just going full tank mode.
    Let’s see how far Draymond can carry this team. Time to shine or....

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldBattleship View Post
    Speaking of wild things going down in the NBA, on a night where very few people in either city were likely watching, the Rockets and Wizards played a mid-World-Series-game-7 NBA game and the final score was 159-158. Harden had 59 on 32 shots and 9 assts (only 18 FTAs today!), Beal had 46 on 20 shots(!?!?!?) to go with 8 assists and 6 rebounds, Russ had a triple double because of course he did, the Wizards' 4-man bench went for 64 on only 36 shots, and Clint Capela was good but committed the most blatant uncalled travel I think I've ever seen. Just a crazy, crazy game, and, again, in the middle of Game 7 of the World Series between the teams in their respective cities.
    Wild game, not a lick of defense was played. Shame it came down to both stars (Beal and then Harden) forcing their way into bogus foul calls to tie and then win the game from the free throw line. Anticlimactic.

    But hey, as a Washington sports fan, don't mind losing this one if it meant beating Houston in the other sport!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    Steph Curry with a broken left hand. Getting close to that team just going full tank mode.
    Yeah, it looks like their 1st-rounder is top-20 protected. I could see them getting into the race for James Wiseman. (Most of this draft's best players are guards, but since they already have Steph, Klay, and Russell...)

    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Let’s see how far Draymond can carry this team. Time to shine or...
    I mean, it didn't look like even Curry could carry this bunch, so it's unfair to think Green could by himself. Doesn't change the fact that Draymond's been a great player in his career.

    I think since you're anti-GSW, the angle here to take is to make fun of their front office. There have been a lot of bad drafting and personnel decisions to reach this point where the roster is so barren. It looks like luck did play a prominent role in their success (as it usually does in the NBA).

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