2019-2020 NBA Regular Season Thread

[JasonEvans]

Looks like we're starting to get close to a point where there needs to be a serious conversation about the coaches' challenge. Last couple of days there have been some pretty high-profile challenges in big games where it looked pretty clearly like a call should be reversed... and it wasn't.

First up: Doc Rivers challenged what looks to be, shall we say, a significant reaction by Eric Bledsoe to at most fairly minimal contact by Lou Williams. The call was an offensive foul on Williams. It stood after review. Doc was NOT happy about it.

Second call: Jimmy Butler demands a Spoelstra challenge after he was called for a foul on a Cam Johnson layup. Replays sure don't seem to show much contact, but, again, the call was confirmed.

It's REALLY hard to make these kinds of subjective calls in slow motion on replay. We're not in NFL refs and reviewing pass interference calls territory quite yet, but if enough prominent players and coaches have these kinds of moments, I'd not be surprised at all if the NBA ends up canning this particular experiment, even though video replay is something that they're heavily invested in generally.

Ok, both of those are just stupid. In both cases -- especially the Jimmy Butler case -- the call should have been reversed. I wonder if part of the problem is that the overturn decision is being made by refs at the game, requiring them to look at the replay and say, "I (or we, if it involves one of his crew mates) made a mistake and now I need to admit that mistake to 20-thousand people plus the audience on TV." A better system would be to have a central decision-maker in the NBA office look, someone who is divorced from the original call.

[UT Dukie]

I totally agree with Jason's point of a decision-maker outside the arena.

As I don't have a strong rooting interest in the NBA, I have a couple observations after reviewing both videos again. 1) To my eye Butler was clearly in the path of the offensive player, and the offensive player fell down because he was avoiding contact (inside the arc, where contact would be potentially deemed a block anyway). 2) The call on Lou Williams was a complete flop by Bledsoe and should have been called that immediately. 3) It's been discussed here before (re: Teddy V, etc.) that referees shouldn't take attention away from the game. This review forces them to accept attention so I'm not at all surprised they're reluctant to overturn calls, even when appropriate.

My $0.02-

[TheOldBattleship]

Man, I'm watching the Dallas/Boston game, and had thought I'd be making a post in the Dukies in the NBA thread. But watching the game, particularly this third quarter, there's one big story here (or two, if you count the less interesting one that Boston is really good this year): Luka Doncic is an absolute beast. I've seen the outrageous stats but hadn't watched a full game of his yet this year, and MAN. He's incredible. There just aren't that many guys in the NBA right now where they just dictate everything about every single offensive play (say, LeBron, Harden, Giannis, MAYBE Dame this year), where the best play is always just "let this guy run stuff," but you pretty much have to include Luka in that list now, too. He just has EVERYTHING offensively.

Speaking of those stats, he's averaging 28/11/9 per game now (rounding slightly up), and that actually might undersell him passing-wise: Dorian Finney-Smith has missed like 4 wide-open corner threes off Luka passes already this game (tough when the wing that will be in the corner most of the time on Luka's drives is shooting 30% from 3 on the year). Maybe Doncic's scoring is a bit unsustainable: he's over 60% from 2 right now and his shot from three is coming and going a bit so far (32%, just under where he was last year). But he's just completely in control of the offense when he's in the game even when he's not scoring. If he keeps this up, he's a lock to be an All Star (maybe a starter?) and an All-NBA guy this year. If you're starting a franchise from scratch right now, do you take anyone other than Giannis ahead of him?

(In less fun news, poor Jason Tatum can't hit ANYTHING right now: he's 1-17 so far.)

[Steven43]

(In less fun news, poor Jason Tatum can't hit ANYTHING right now: he's 1-17 so far.)

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

[TheOldBattleship]

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

Sadly, yep: Tatum ends 1-18 from the field (though, it must be said, he's turned into a guy who can affect the game without scoring: only 5 points tonight, but 8 boards, 4 assists, and a steal to go with some very solid defense, particularly taking his turn on Porzingis). Doncic went for 34/6/9 on 11-21 from the field. 1 turnover. The guy is incredible.

Tatum wasn't the only guy in the game to go one-fer. Porzingis was 1-11 for 4 points in 20 minutes (limited by foul trouble). Tatum, Marcus Smart, and a rotation of Boston bigs just dominated him. He looked AWFUL. It was no accident that the Mavs were -15 when he was in and +20 when Dwight Powell was in. Is he hurt? Still just recovering from that last big injury? Regardless, his play is a big story to watch this year. They've been better without him in the game so far this year, but they've committed a LOT of money to him. Possibly tough choices ahead if he doesn't start looking better soon.

[Steven43]

Tatum wasn't the only guy in the game to go one-fer. Porzingis was 1-11 for 4 points in 20 minutes (limited by foul trouble). Tatum, Marcus Smart, and a rotation of Boston bigs just dominated him. He looked AWFUL. It was no accident that the Mavs were -15 when he was in and +20 when Dwight Powell was in. Is he hurt? Still just recovering from that last big injury? Regardless, his play is a big story to watch this year. They've been better without him in the game so far this year, but they've committed a LOT of money to him. Possibly tough choices ahead if he doesn't start looking better soon.

Wow, I had no idea Porzingis has not been playing well. I saw some highlight clips of him the other night that made it seem like he was back to his old self. I guess not. Bummer.

[WV_Iron_Duke]

JJ started tonite vs the Rockets and scored 24 almost all 3's in 37 minutes. Okafor scored 14 in 16 minutes.

[robed deity]

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

Even though there was only like a 2 percent chance of it happening, I was really hoping Dallas would get Zion. I love Doncic and it would have been fun to see the two of them play together for several years.

[TheOldBattleship]

Wow, I had no idea Porzingis has not been playing well. I saw some highlight clips of him the other night that made it seem like he was back to his old self. I guess not. Bummer.

Well, I probably overstated it a bit: he's definitely been a ton better than he was tonight, by and large, and is definitely getting numbers (20/8 with 2.6 blocks/game isn't anything to sneeze at). But he's shooting a pretty dreadful 43% from the field (and that's before tonight's stinker is factored in), even if some of that comes from the pretty-good 38% from 3 at a pretty high volume (6.5 per game). Tons of long twos, many of which are fadeaways. And it all leads to a pretty brutal +/- on a pretty good team.

A huge factor there, I think, is that he's just not been particularly forceful offensively, whether as a roll guy in pick and roll or when there's a switch. He doesn't punish smaller guys at all when teams switch, which severely limits the Luka/Porzingis pick and roll. That's too bad, because Doncic is SO GOOD in pick and roll. And that's a big reason why the Mavs have been better thus far (by a lot) with Powell and/or Kleber as the roll man than with Porzingis in that role. And since you absolutely want tons of Luka pick and rolls in your gameplan, what's ended up happening is that KP ends up doing a ton of spotting up away from the action, where he's demonstrably been not-good shooting the ball.

[JasonEvans]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him? Check out Trae's stats this year:

26.3 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg... but if you take out the game where he got injured in the first quarter his numbers go up to 30ppg and 9.3 apg. He's a really great creator who makes his teammates better. The problem is he has lousy teammates right now (especially with Collins suspended). I think he can be Steph-lite someday pretty soon.

-Jason "the 2018 draft class is studly... I think Marvin will be a beast when he gets healthy this year" Evans

[dukelifer]

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

Yes a misprint - he was 1-18. That is a bad night. Fortunately he has had a number of very good nights this year, but wow that is hard to do.

[Billy Dat]

Man, I'm watching the Dallas/Boston game, and had thought I'd be making a post in the Dukies in the NBA thread. But watching the game, particularly this third quarter, there's one big story here (or two, if you count the less interesting one that Boston is really good this year): Luka Doncic is an absolute beast. I've seen the outrageous stats but hadn't watched a full game of his yet this year, and MAN. He's incredible. There just aren't that many guys in the NBA right now where they just dictate everything about every single offensive play (say, LeBron, Harden, Giannis, MAYBE Dame this year), where the best play is always just "let this guy run stuff," but you pretty much have to include Luka in that list now, too. He just has EVERYTHING offensively.

Speaking of those stats, he's averaging 28/11/9 per game now (rounding slightly up), and that actually might undersell him passing-wise: Dorian Finney-Smith has missed like 4 wide-open corner threes off Luka passes already this game (tough when the wing that will be in the corner most of the time on Luka's drives is shooting 30% from 3 on the year). Maybe Doncic's scoring is a bit unsustainable: he's over 60% from 2 right now and his shot from three is coming and going a bit so far (32%, just under where he was last year). But he's just completely in control of the offense when he's in the game even when he's not scoring. If he keeps this up, he's a lock to be an All Star (maybe a starter?) and an All-NBA guy this year. If you're starting a franchise from scratch right now, do you take anyone other than Giannis ahead of him?

(In less fun news, poor Jason Tatum can't hit ANYTHING right now: he's 1-17 so far.)

Yeah, the kid is pretty incredible. I watched him against the Knicks last week and even though the Knicks miraculously got the W, Doncic was running the show in all facets. An example of his emerging presence was in the game's final minutes. The Knicks had been up 10 with 4 to go but the Mavs fought back, the Knicks missed a bunch of FTs (including an 0-2 from RJ...doh!) and it was a one possession game with less than a minute to play. Doncic brought the ball up court, crossed halfcourt, and promptly pulled up for a 3 from just past the halfcourt circle. Not only was I not surprised that he took such an audacious shot, I fully expected it to go in, and it nearly did. He was mad he missed it, but I didn't see any outward disbelief or anger from his teammates that he took the shot. You can't discount how important his size is for his position. If he gets into the lane, it's really tough to cut off his angle to the hoop because he's broad and thick. His passing is sublime. I think he and Porzingis just need more time together and Luka will figure out where he needs the ball and deliver it to him, but I also think, as you said, KP needs to get more comfortable in the low post so that anytime he gets a favorable switch he is diving into the low block, making a target and converting.

[TheOldBattleship]

Well, I probably overstated it a bit: he's definitely been a ton better than he was tonight, by and large, and is definitely getting numbers (20/8 with 2.6 blocks/game isn't anything to sneeze at). But he's shooting a pretty dreadful 43% from the field (and that's before tonight's stinker is factored in), even if some of that comes from the pretty-good 38% from 3 at a pretty high volume (6.5 per game). Tons of long twos, many of which are fadeaways. And it all leads to a pretty brutal +/- on a pretty good team.

A huge factor there, I think, is that he's just not been particularly forceful offensively, whether as a roll guy in pick and roll or when there's a switch. He doesn't punish smaller guys at all when teams switch, which severely limits the Luka/Porzingis pick and roll. That's too bad, because Doncic is SO GOOD in pick and roll. And that's a big reason why the Mavs have been better thus far (by a lot) with Powell and/or Kleber as the roll man than with Porzingis in that role. And since you absolutely want tons of Luka pick and rolls in your gameplan, what's ended up happening is that KP ends up doing a ton of spotting up away from the action, where he's demonstrably been not-good shooting the ball.

Perfect timing for this discussion: Zach Lowe just had Rick Carlisle on his always-excellent podcast to talk through, among other things, the early Luka/Porzingis fit. Basically, Carlisle is not concerned at all. He emphasized how early it is in that partnership and how long Porzingis was out with the injury, and then also that they're a pretty elite NBA offense right now, so there's no rush to "fix" anything. Carlisle wants to prevent pick and rolls that turn into "slow-moving isolations" even against mismatches, and that's why they've kept Porzingis out of tons of pick and rolls so far. I buy the "have patience" case here, I have to say, coming from the coach (Carlisle has never seemed like the type to hold back if he was actually displeased).

Anyway, it's a great listen: come for the strategy talk, stay for the random tongue-in-cheek Dirk insults.

[tbyers11]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him?

Yes. Trae is putting up some nice stats right now and will be a very good player. Probably a multiple time all-star.

But I think Luka has a chance to be a first-team all-NBA, MVP type player for many years

[JNort]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him? Check out Trae's stats this year:

26.3 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg... but if you take out the game where he got injured in the first quarter his numbers go up to 30ppg and 9.3 apg. He's a really great creator who makes his teammates better. The problem is he has lousy teammates right now (especially with Collins suspended). I think he can be Steph-lite someday pretty soon.

-Jason "the 2018 draft class is studly... I think Marvin will be a beast when he gets healthy this year" Evans

Trae has been great but he isn't near Luka imo. Trae could a be a scoring leader for several years but Luka is an MVP caliber guy.

[Steven43]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him?

Jason, I agree that Trae Young is damn good. I’ve been a big fan of his from the beginning. I couldn’t believe when people were jumping off the bandwagon and saying he was “overrated” and “too small for the NBA” and all that jazz during the second half of his freshman year at Oklahoma. I always saw him as the second coming of Steph Curry. I don’t know if that’s an accurate assessment, but we’ll see.

As good as Young is, though, I do not agree that he is in Doncic’s class. Doncic stands alone. He is one heck of a rebounder, a good ballhandler, can score with proficiency from anywhere on the court, is an excellent passer, sees the floor like a 10-time All Star PG, is a very tough dude who burns to win, and is a great leader. He is the closest thing I have seen to the legendary Larry Bird, a player who at his peak was, I think, the best in the history of the sport.

But anyway, did you see what Trae did tonight? He led his team to a huge win on the road in Denver by scoring 42 points on 13-21 shooting (8-13 from three) with 11 assists. Expectations for him coming into the league were pretty high, and he is already exceeding them by miles with much more to come.

As a side note, Jabari had yet another nice game for the Hawks. I LOVE seeing him doing well.

[COYS]

Jason, I agree that Trae Young is damn good. I’ve been a big fan of his from the beginning. I couldn’t believe when people were jumping off the bandwagon and saying he was “overrated” and “too small for the NBA” and all that jazz during the second half of his freshman year at Oklahoma. I always saw him as the second coming of Steph Curry. I don’t know if that’s an accurate assessment, but we’ll see.

As good as Young is, though, I do not agree that he is in Doncic’s class. Doncic stands alone. He is one heck of a rebounder, a good ballhandler, can score with proficiency from anywhere on the court, is an excellent passer, sees the floor like a 10-time All Star PG, is a very tough dude who burns to win, and is a great leader. He is the closest thing I have seen to the legendary Larry Bird, a player who at his peak was, I think, the best in the history of the sport.

But anyway, did you see what Trae did tonight? He led his team to a huge win on the road in Denver by scoring 42 points on 13-21 shooting (8-13 from three) with 11 assists. Expectations for him coming into the league were pretty high, and he is already exceeding them by miles with much more to come.

As a side note, Jabari had yet another nice game for the Hawks. I LOVE seeing him doing well.

As a Hawks fan who loves Tre Young and thinks he’s more likely to live up to his “next Steph Curry” ceiling than people realize, the advanced metrics agree that Doncic is the better player at the moment, in large part because of defense. Still, the rapid improvement made by Young has been absolutely astounding (as has Doncic’s level of dominance right out of the gate). I was not in favor of the Hawks trade when it was made, even though I didn’t think it was bad, necessarily. Young’s play has been a very pleasant surprise and now I wonder if the Kings (who drafted our own Marvin Bagley) and Memphis are the two teams who will be kicking themselves for missing out on two potentially super star talents.

(Not a knock on Marvin who I think is going to be really good but still projects to be a little bit below Young and Doncic.)

[Troublemaker]

As a Hawks fan who loves Tre Young and thinks he’s more likely to live up to his “next Steph Curry” ceiling than people realize, the advanced metrics agree that Doncic is the better player at the moment, in large part because of defense. Still, the rapid improvement made by Young has been absolutely astounding (as has Doncic’s level of dominance right out of the gate). I was not in favor of the Hawks trade when it was made, even though I didn’t think it was bad, necessarily. Young’s play has been a very pleasant surprise and now I wonder if the Kings (who drafted our own Marvin Bagley) and Memphis are the two teams who will be kicking themselves for missing out on two potentially super star talents.

(Not a knock on Marvin who I think is going to be really good but still projects to be a little bit below Young and Doncic.)

Yeah, it's an interesting trade for sure now that both players have exceeded expectations (I would say). The difference between Doncic and Young (future MVP vs multiple-time All-Star) is easily worth the extra first-round pick that Dallas gave up, but I wouldn't say Atlanta has anything to hang their heads about. Young is great and so fun to watch. (Plus, it's not like those projections are written in stone yet).

I don't think Memphis will be kicking themselves, either, for passing on Trae at #4. Jaren Jackson is a future DPOY and can spread the floor, and they got Ja Morant in the following draft. That pair is better than drafting Young in the 2018 draft and then pairing him with [Barrett or other] in the 2019 draft.

[JasonEvans]

Yeah, it's an interesting trade for sure now that both players have exceeded expectations (I would say). The difference between Doncic and Young (future MVP vs multiple-time All-Star) is easily worth the extra first-round pick that Dallas gave up, but I wouldn't say Atlanta has anything to hang their heads about. Young is great and so fun to watch. (Plus, it's not like those projections are written in stone yet).

The comparison is Trae+Cam vs. Luka. We need to see what Cam turns into to fully weigh this deal. It will be interesting to watch it over the next few years as these players mature a bit and their NBA success is easier to define.

[bundabergdevil]

The Mavs are up 45 halfway through the 3rd on GS and Luka has his 7th triple double of the season. He also had more points, rebounds, and assists than the entire GS team in the first quarter. He's averaging 30 points and 9 assists a game. At 20. Wow.

James Harden is also being even more James Harden. I suspect he'll do his best to keep his average up now that he's out of the shoot at 39 points/game. Feels a bit like the season Westbrook averaged the triple double.

Giannis probably rounding out the early stages MVP race with 30 points/14 rebounds.

Great to see Paul George back with ferocity. He and Kawhi are going to be a terror in LA. LeBron defying age and Dwight Howard having himself a little rebirth and, so far, his teammates don't seem to hate him.

It's a hell of a time to be a stat stuffer in the NBA.

Overall, some pretty fun early season story lines and its nice to have GS out of the mix. Its early but we may have seismic event in Los Angeles next spring...

...of course, I'm really just here for Zion this season.