Kansas In Trouble

[UrinalCake]

I see this as Kansas pushing back on whether Self knew about it. They’re not really pushing back on whether these things happened.

[JasonEvans]

I don't think the NCAA has waited this long to send the NOA without having some meat on the bone somewhere. We shall see.

What's more, I am sure we are not the only ones who see the NCAA as an impotent paper tiger incapable of policing its schools. You know who else is aware of that reputation? The NCAA itself. The folks in enforcement know they need some big wins... soon... or the pressure will grow to take the organization apart and build something that, you know, actually works. If they melt down and meekly walk away from another high profile case, it is likely the end of the NCAA as an enforcement mechanism.

So, this is the rock they have chosen to die upon. It is a must win for them. They could have just let this whole thing wither on the vine if it was not a compelling case. But, they chose to bring some very strong charges here. I suspect they think they will win and Kansas' defense not be enough. Time will tell, but I believe this case is really important and the NCAA knows that as well as we do.

-Jason "it is going to take some time for all of this to play out... I doubt this gets resolved until spring at the earliest" Evans

[BD80]

I see this as Kansas pushing back on whether Self knew about it. They’re not really pushing back on whether these things happened.

And for its first witness, Kansas University call Sergeant Hans Shultz, Chief of Plausible Deniability Department.

I am certain that KU maintained a least a couple layers of separation. Did Self know what was happening? Hell yes! Can the NCAA prove t?

[PackMan97]

The folks in enforcement know they need some big wins... soon... or the pressure will grow to take the organization apart and build something that, you know, actually works. If they melt down and meekly walk away from another high profile case, it is likely the end of the NCAA as an enforcement mechanism.

The end was when they let Carolina walk for it's cheating. They had them dead to rights with the SACCS probation and just let them go.

[dudog84]

I'm surprised they are fighting back as hard as they are. It seems to me that Kansas' allegations are more of a smoking gun than UNC's. The argument during the UNC scandal was to put the burden on the NCAA to decide whether or not the easy classes were a special benefit to athletes, or just an easy class that was available to everyone. UNC was able to blur that line enough that the NCAA decided it was too difficult to tell with certainty.

As rsvman so correctly pointed out to me, they weren't easy classes. They weren't classes at all. Grrr.

[UrinalCake]

And for its first witness, Kansas University call Sergeant Hans Shultz, Chief of Plausible Deniability Department.

I am certain that KU maintained a least a couple layers of separation. Did Self know what was happening? Hell yes! Can the NCAA prove t?

Since the CHeat case, the NCAA has instituted a new Coach’s Control provision that basically holds the head coach accountable for everything that happens under his program, whether he knew about it or now. (They might as well have named this the “Roy Knew Rule.”) so I’m not sure what exactly Kansas is trying to argue here. They claim that Gassnola and the Adidas agents intentionally concealed these payments from Self, which may be true. But according to NCAA rules, it doesn’t matter.

[AGDukesky]

All I know is Cleveland State better be very worried...

[grad_devil]

Since the CHeat case, the NCAA has instituted a new Coach’s Control provision that basically holds the head coach accountable for everything that happens under his program, whether he knew about it or now. (They might as well have named this the “Roy Knew Rule.”) so I’m not sure what exactly Kansas is trying to argue here. They claim that Gassnola and the Adidas agents intentionally concealed these payments from Self, which may be true. But according to NCAA rules, it doesn’t matter.

UrinalCake brings up an interesting point.

In the wake of the uNC fiasco, the NCAA Board of Governors adopted some major reforms w/r/t enforcement and member institution cooperation. I won't write them all up here, but here's a brief summary:

Summary:

• 19.2.3 - Responsibility to Cooperate - As a term of employment, presidents and athletics staff must commit contractually to full cooperation in the NCAA investigations and infractions process.
• 19.2.3.2.3 - Immediate Penalties for Failure to Cooperate - The chair of the COI can impose immediate penalties when schools/individuals do not cooperate. Lack of cooperation can be considered an admission of a violation.
• 19.7.8.3.1 - Importation of Facts - Investigator can accept information established by another administrative body (<cough> SACS ??</cough>).
• 19.5.12 - Negotiated Resolution - If the facts are agreed upon, a resolution can be negotiated, including penalties, to reduce legal fees and minimize drawn-out adversarial solutions.
• 19.2.3.3 - Protection for Cooperation (Whistleblower Protection) - An institution shall not retaliate against a current/former staff member or PSA or SA who reports violations.
• 19.2.3.2.1 - Failure or Refusal to Produce Materials (Negative Inference) - If an institution/individual fails or refuses to produce materials requested by enforcement staff, the hearing panel may infer that those materials would support the alleged violation.
• 19.2.3.2.2 - Failure or Refusal to Participate in Interview (Negative Inference) - See 19.2.3.2.1 above, but with interviews.
• 19.9.5.2 - Financial Penalties - Stronger penalties exist, including longer postseason bans, head coach suspensions, potential lifetime show-cause orders, recruiting restrictions, and loss of all revenue from NCAA tournament.

I guess we'll get a front-row seat to see if they make any difference in the KU case.

[DukieInKansas]

All I know is Cleveland State better be very worried...

I was going with "KU, the new Cleveland State".

[Rich]

What's more, I am sure we are not the only ones who see the NCAA as an impotent paper tiger incapable of policing its schools. You know who else is aware of that reputation? The NCAA itself. The folks in enforcement know they need some big wins... soon... or the pressure will grow to take the organization apart and build something that, you know, actually works. If they melt down and meekly walk away from another high profile case, it is likely the end of the NCAA as an enforcement mechanism.

So, this is the rock chalk they have chosen to die upon. It is a must win for them. They could have just let this whole thing wither on the vine if it was not a compelling case. But, they chose to bring some very strong charges here. I suspect they think they will win and Kansas' defense not be enough. Time will tell, but I believe this case is really important and the NCAA knows that as well as we do.

-Jason "it is going to take some time for all of this to play out... I doubt this gets resolved until spring at the earliest" Evans

FIFY

[Wahoo2000]

UNC cheated for over two decades and got away scot-free. I say it's pretty clear that they won, hands down.

If you're a college coach there is zero reason NOT to cheat. What's the worst that can happen? You have to sit out a few early season games? Big whoop. Even in the absolute worst case scenario, which has virtually no chance of happening, you vacate a portion of the games that you won. You still keep all the money that you earned and you're still worshiped as a hero among all your fans.

I would venture to guess that the majority of casual college basketball fans have no clue that Syracuse was punished for major rules violations a couple years ago. Boeheim sat out a few non-conference yawners, they made the final four the following year and he's still in the Hall of Fame. If I were a young coach just starting out, you'd have a hard time convincing me that cheating wasn't the way to go. It's like telling a bank robber he could steal a million dollars and the penalty IF he gets caught is that he'll have to pay back a few thousand of it.

I can think of a reason - if you actually hold your ethics and morals above your income/prestige/career interests so much so that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is.

Beyond the winning, it's just another reason I'm in love with Bennett running our (UVA's) program - ZERO worry about this kind of stuff. Not only because of who he is, but because of the types of kids he brings in.

[53n206]

It seems that what UNC blatantly got away with has further soured many of us on the NCAA. What alternative do we have to that weak, self serving organization?

[sagegrouse]

It seems that what UNC blatantly got away with has further soured many of us on the NCAA. What alternative do we have to that weak, self serving organization?

Quoting Duke AD, Dr. Kevin White: "The NCAA is an organization created by the schools to enforce the rules enacted by the schools." If we don't like the rules, we should change the rules. If we don't like the NCAA leadership, the schools should find new leadership.

In other words, "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo

Except for UNC, I can't think of any school that beat the rap. Of course, the injustice of the UNC verdict is a chasm the size of the Atlantic Ocean.

[JetpackJesus]

I'm surprised they are fighting back as hard as they are. It seems to me that Kansas' allegations are more of a smoking gun than UNC's. The argument during the UNC scandal was to put the burden on the NCAA to decide whether or not the easy classes were a special benefit to athletes, or just an easy class that was available to everyone. UNC was able to blur that line enough that the NCAA decided it was too difficult to tell with certainty.

The things alleged against Kansas are pretty black and white. Either they have evidence that Kansas and/or Bill Self knew about the payments, or they don't. It's not a matter of whether it was against the rules or not, we all know it was, now it comes down to who knew and when.

Kansas fighting back this hard tells me they don't think the NCAA has enough evidence to prove anyone knew. But it sounds like some of the texts that were released earlier when this story broke are pretty damming.

I don't think the NCAA has waited this long to send the NOA without having some meat on the bone somewhere. We shall see.

This is an important point that always needs to be corrected: Easy classes weren't the issue. Fake classes were the issue.

Quoting Duke AD, Dr. Kevin White: "The NCAA is an organization created by the schools to enforce the rules enacted by the schools." If we don't like the rules, we should change the rules. If we don't like the NCAA leadership, the schools should find new leadership.

In other words, "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo

Except for UNC, I can't think of any school that beat the rap. Of course, the injustice of the UNC verdict is a chasm the size of the Atlantic Ocean.

Pacific, at a minimum.

[devildeac]

I guess this is the correct thread. I get confused with all the money/shoe/bribery investigations, not to mention the cheaters:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...rruption-probe

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I guess this is the correct thread. I get confused with all the money/shoe/bribery investigations, not to mention the cheaters:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...rruption-probe

The Idiots from Indy are great at sending out NOA’s. Unfortunately, that’s where they run out of spine.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It seems that what UNC blatantly got away with has further soured many of us on the NCAA.

And ironically, there is a certain former Duke player, who shall remain nameless, who routinely rails on the NCAA in his position as a color commentator on a major sports network, that shall remain nameless. And yet...the only thing he likes about the NCAA is their letting the Cheats off the hook.

Irony can be so telling at times....

[Steven43]

And ironically, there is a certain former Duke player, who shall remain nameless...

Are you by chance referring to Mark Alarie’s teammate?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Are you by chance referring to Mark Alarie’s teammate?

Hah, yeah....BTW Alarie one of my all time fave Duke players. And nothing can ever change the fact that Alarie was the first player to score official hoop in the Dean's Myth Center!

[Pghdukie]

The Idiots from Indy are great at sending out NOA’s. Unfortunately, that’s where they run out of spine.

They (NCAA) run to the Post Office - then run and hide.