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Thread: 2019 NFL Season

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    LOL, where do you get your numbers? TDs 361, INTs 239, fumbles 56 (which I've never seen anyone really concentrate on in a QB). In the post-season TDs 18, INTs 9, fumbles 2. And he was MVP in both Super Bowls.

    Re the bold, he was the #1 pick in the draft. I think that is being considered a top tier QB, at least at one point in his career. L...O...L
    It seems the original place I checked didn't differentiate between lost and recovered fumbles. So it improves to a less than stellar 25 to 21.

    Not sure if I should even respond to your draft pick comment. It's nearly as awful an argument and as off topic as those who thought the Baker win/loss in the NFL compares to DJs win/loss at Duke.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    It seems the original place I checked didn't differentiate between lost and recovered fumbles. So it improves to a less than stellar 25 to 21.

    Not sure if I should even respond to your draft pick comment. It's nearly as awful an argument and as off topic as those who thought the Baker win/loss in the NFL compares to DJs win/loss at Duke.
    Please respond. YOU are the one who said "he has never in his career been considered a top tier qb". If you're going to use absolutes, be prepared to defend them. Nor did you provide any supporting documentation/links to support that statement. Oh yeah, he also made several Pro Bowls. But what do the pros know?

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    North of Durham
    I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I would like to note that this summer, my son was a big fan of the mini-golf show Holey Moley (starring Steph Curry) and I watched most episodes with him - it was oddly amusing. Joe Tessitore was one of the announcers, playing the straight man with a very deadpan comedian (blanking on his name). Watching the MNF game tonight, I can no longer take Tessitore seriously at all. After last year's horrible MNF season, my respect for him was already limited, but I blamed a lot of that on the producers and Witten.

  4. #124
    Draft position as a measure of how a guy's viewed among his peers as a pro. That's something pretty special.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Draft position as a measure of how a guy's viewed among his peers as a pro. That's something pretty special.
    Hold it. The OP said never in his career, not never in his NFL career. It was a from-the-hip response to a ludicrous statement, but not completely unreasonable. He also said nothing about "peers". Clearly, a lot of people that get paid a lot to assess talent (nobody on this thread) think and/or thought he's a top tier QB. And please address the multiple Pro Bowls.

    Seriously, do you have something of value to add?

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Turk View Post
    "former Steelers fan"?!? I didn't know there was such a thing!! "INCONCEIVABLE!!"

    I'm going to say "waste" is a bit strong. The Steelers were only .500 three times, and almost always in the hunt year in and year out. It seems like there was always a piece missing, or a bad injury (e.g. Shazier in 2017), or some other factor that prevented them from going deeper in the playoffs (besides just having to go through the Belicheats). The Steelers sure racked up a whole bunch of wins year after year after year, and Ben matches up well with anyone.

    Active QB Won-Loss Records

    Whether Ben decides to retire or try to come back, I'm good with it.

    (Oh and by the way, the "pass interference challenge" is a complete fiasco, and could very well have cost the Steelers a win against Seattle.)
    *Seahawks fan agrees, but somehow it doesn't help*

    Speaking of Seattle, how about Russell's winning percentage on that list? Not bad!

    Go 'Hawks!

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Hold it. The OP said never in his career, not never in his NFL career. It was a from-the-hip response to a ludicrous statement, but not completely unreasonable. He also said nothing about "peers". Clearly, a lot of people that get paid a lot to assess talent (nobody on this thread) think and/or thought he's a top tier QB. And please address the multiple Pro Bowls.

    Seriously, do you have something of value to add?
    The irony is well noted. Six QB's each year make the pro-bowl, so it doesn't seem all that meaningful. And 2 of his 4 selections were as an injury replacement, so now we're somewhere outside the top 6. I suppose "top tier" is a subjective term, and how wide that tier goes is a matter of opinion. But if those selections do it for you, so be it. In the context of the Hall of Fame,which is how this discussion started, I think that's a fair bit too broad. And getting out of the weeds of "never", regardless of what tier those two pro bowls (plus tw0 more, don't want to forget those replacement selections) put him in those years, out of a 15+ year career it seems like a strong point against, rather than for.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  8. #128
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Mary's Place
    OK, back to the HOF discussion for the class of 2004.

    Ben and Eli are both locks. Eli would be only slightly less of a lock if his last name was Schlabotnik instead of Manning, or played for Jacksonville instead of the New York Football Giants. They will be first-ballot HOFers when eligible.

    To me, the borderline case is Philip Rivers. When he is done, he will rack up great career stats due to his longevity, but he doesn't have the playoff success or the rings. I think he will get in, but it may depend on who else is in his class when he retires.
    Last edited by Turk; 09-17-2019 at 11:34 AM.
    "Quality is not an option!"

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Please respond. YOU are the one who said "he has never in his career been considered a top tier qb". If you're going to use absolutes, be prepared to defend them. Nor did you provide any supporting documentation/links to support that statement. Oh yeah, he also made several Pro Bowls. But what do the pros know?
    We can simply look at the stats. His rating be it passer rating or qbr is nearly always around slightly above average to slightly below and then you have a few outlier years where he had good or awful years. However even in his best years he doesn't crack the top end of qbs. For example 2015 was his best passing year with a passer rating of 93.6 which was good for 13th in the NFL (so average). His best qbr year was 09 which put him inside the top 10 at number 8 which is great but hardly one of the elite but good none the less. That's why I get frustrated with all these people nowadays saying he's overrated and trash. No he was a capable NFL qb who deserved his starting spot, now however it seems we got those who are trying to tilt the other way and want to make it seem like he was better than he was and in reality he was an average NFL qb who went through normal ups and downs.

    As for pro bowls, I'm not sure how closely you follow it but let's take 2015 for example since it was his best passer year and most recent trip. He didn't even get into the top 10 in votes for qb, he only went because all the others either declined the invite, were hurt, or participating in the Super Bowl. That would be like saying Jaylen Brown is one of the 15 best basketball players in the NBA because he is on our world team. He isn't remotely a top 15 NBA player but is on the team because everyone else doesn't want to participate.
    Last edited by JNort; 09-17-2019 at 11:38 AM.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I would like to note that this summer, my son was a big fan of the mini-golf show Holey Moley (starring Steph Curry) and I watched most episodes with him - it was oddly amusing. Joe Tessitore was one of the announcers, playing the straight man with a very deadpan comedian (blanking on his name). Watching the MNF game tonight, I can no longer take Tessitore seriously at all. After last year's horrible MNF season, my respect for him was already limited, but I blamed a lot of that on the producers and Witten.
    That would be Rob Riggle - a local boy. He played baseball with my nephew. (Today's brush with greatness.)

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    Hold it. The OP said never in his career, not never in his NFL career. It was a from-the-hip response to a ludicrous statement, but not completely unreasonable. He also said nothing about "peers". Clearly, a lot of people that get paid a lot to assess talent (nobody on this thread) think and/or thought he's a top tier QB. And please address the multiple Pro Bowls.

    Seriously, do you have something of value to add?
    Are you being serious right now? You're comimg across as very disingenuous here. We are discussing his merits as they relate to the Hall which only values your pro accomplishments. Nor have I ever heard someone count their amateur and pro career stats as the same thing.


    Also maybe you aren't aware but the pros don't decide who goes to the pro bowl, we the fans do. Similarly to the NBA All Star voting it can also turn into a popularity contest instead of one based on skill. A better measure is who makes first team all pro.
    Last edited by JNort; 09-17-2019 at 11:59 AM.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  13. #133
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    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Will the Jets (or anyone else in need) take a look at trading for Eli now that DJ has taken his spot?
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    Will the Jets (or anyone else in need) take a look at trading for Eli now that DJ has taken his spot?
    I don't know but I hate this for Jamison Crowder...
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    Are you being serious right now? You're comimg across as very disingenuous here. We are discussing his merits as they relate to the Hall which only values your pro accomplishments. Nor have I ever heard someone count their amateur and pro career stats as the same thing.


    Also maybe you aren't aware but the pros don't decide who goes to the pro bowl, we the fans do. Similarly to the NBA All Star voting it can also turn into a popularity contest instead of one based on skill. A better measure is who makes first team all pro.
    This will be my last post on the subject regardless of how ridiculous the responses are. No matter how far my hackles rise when someone states a personal opinion that everyone supposedly agrees with.

    First, he's going into the Hall. I'm ready to make my very first pie bet on that. Therefore not everyone agrees with you that he has "nowhere near" Hall quality talent or accomplishments. Or that he's never been considered a top tier QB by anyone. Ever in his NFL career. Not even for one minute.

    He holds virtually every important QB record for one of the iconic franchises in the sport. His numbers are very similar to Ben's. He does have more interceptions, but you know what else he has that Ben doesn't? Two Super Bowl MVPs. Ben has 0.

    Re the defense carrying him, Eli has never had a Defensive POY on his team. Ben has had 2. Steelers are kinda known for their defense.

    None of the above is meant to denigrate Big Ben.

    Jerry Rice chose Eli as his starter in the Pro Bowl. But what does Jerry Rice know about football, specifically QBs?

    Finally, fans don't decide who goes to the Pro Bowl. Their votes count 1/3. Get your facts straight if you want to convince anyone of your opinion.
    Last edited by dudog84; 09-17-2019 at 02:11 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Turk View Post
    "former Steelers fan"?!? I didn't know there was such a thing!! "INCONCEIVABLE!!"

    I'm going to say "waste" is a bit strong. The Steelers were only .500 three times, and almost always in the hunt year in and year out. It seems like there was always a piece missing, or a bad injury (e.g. Shazier in 2017), or some other factor that prevented them from going deeper in the playoffs (besides just having to go through the Belicheats). The Steelers sure racked up a whole bunch of wins year after year after year, and Ben matches up well with anyone.

    Active QB Won-Loss Records

    Whether Ben decides to retire or try to come back, I'm good with it.

    (Oh and by the way, the "pass interference challenge" is a complete fiasco, and could very well have cost the Steelers a win against Seattle.)
    So, looking at Eli Manning using the above link shows a total record of 124-120. 116-116 during the regular season. 8-4 in the playoffs. 8 of those wins came in two runs to the Super Bowl. So, in 14 complete seasons, 6 playoff seasons, 4 of which were one and out. Average quarterback ratings for most seasons. None of this screams 1st ballot HoF to me.

    I'm probably being petty in another thread.

  17. #137
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by YmoBeThere View Post
    So, looking at Eli Manning using the above link shows a total record of 124-120. 116-116 during the regular season. 8-4 in the playoffs. 8 of those wins came in two runs to the Super Bowl. So, in 14 complete seasons, 6 playoff seasons, 4 of which were one and out. Average quarterback ratings for most seasons. None of this screams 1st ballot HoF to me.
    His dad and his brother were really, really good.

  18. #138
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    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by YmoBeThere View Post
    So, looking at Eli Manning using the above link shows a total record of 124-120. 116-116 during the regular season. 8-4 in the playoffs. 8 of those wins came in two runs to the Super Bowl. So, in 14 complete seasons, 6 playoff seasons, 4 of which were one and out. Average quarterback ratings for most seasons. None of this screams 1st ballot HoF to me.
    Agree, but I think he will get in anyway. Maybe not first ballot, but he will end up there.

    Would he have ended up there if his last name were not Manning? Who knows? Would he have ended up there if David Tyree hadn't managed to secure the ball to the back of his helmet? Probably not. As ludicrous as it may sound, I suspect that when Eli ends up in the Hall of Fame, it will be largely due to the stickum that David Tyree must have had on the back of his helmet.
    A plane takes off from Baltimore and touches down on Bourbon Street

  19. #139
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Agree, but I think he will get in anyway. Maybe not first ballot, but he will end up there.

    Would he have ended up there if his last name were not Manning? Who knows? Would he have ended up there if David Tyree hadn't managed to secure the ball to the back of his helmet? Probably not. As ludicrous as it may sound, I suspect that when Eli ends up in the Hall of Fame, it will be largely due to the stickum that David Tyree must have had on the back of his helmet.
    I really hope not. Just not a HOF career. Nice guy, great family. His brother was really great.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I really hope not. Just not a HOF career. Nice guy, great family. His brother was really great.
    Not a lot of QBs with two rings aren't in. Do you think Ben belongs in? Rivers?

    The stage is set for some really interesting QB hall discussions in a few years.

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