Premier League (Fantasy too)

[OldPhiKap]

looks like you jinxed it...haha.

Yup. Looks like they burned it in the first half, although some crack saves on both ends of the pitch early in the second half.

[Furniture]

Yup. Looks like they burned it in the first half, although some crack saves on both ends of the pitch early in the second half.

Right. That Salah shot and the Mendy save was quite something...

I wonder how Liverpool are going to setup/play without Mane and Salah the next three games...

[OldPhiKap]

Right. That Salah shot and the Mendy save was quite something...

I wonder how Liverpool are going to setup/play without Mane and Salah the next three games...

Does that include the FA Cup match next week, or three EPL matches?

Next three league matches are Brentford, @CP, Leister City. (12, 11, 10 on the table respectively). Man City is getting away from the pack, and the 4/5 line is about seven points below. This is a critical stretch to see which end of the Champion’s League race they will be toiling.

[Skydog]

looks like you jinxed it...haha.

Might have been my fault. I texted my son at halftime and told him to turn it on, there was a hell of a game going on.

Three of those 4 goals were remarkable and the saves were outstanding as well. Saleh is on a whole different level. That long distance shot and save - that is soccer at it’s finest.

Too bad fame fizzled out after that. Was surprised Chelsea were able to totally dominate possession in 2nd half.

[75Crazie]

Both teams expended a large amount of energy in the first half. I'm not surprised the play calmed down in the 2nd, although that run of three goalie saves in a row in the early moments was just as breath-taking.

[Furniture]

Does that include the FA Cup match next week, or three EPL matches?

Next three league matches are Brentford, @CP, Leister City. (12, 11, 10 on the table respectively). Man City is getting away from the pack, and the 4/5 line is about seven points below. This is a critical stretch to see which end of the Champion’s League race they will be toiling.

If you include the cup games , the two semi finals and the FÃ Cup game it’s about 6.

[75Crazie]

VAR has revolutionized, for better AND for worse, the application of offside rules. Today's Premier League mega-match between Man City and Liverpool provides yet another example of the absurd extremes to which offside is awarded. MC's third goal was exquisite, but because an eyelash of Sterling was beyond the last defender it was disallowed. I exaggerate, but not by much; the announcers were in agreement prior to the ruling that Sterling was not offside, and to my eye they were correct. It is difficult enough to score in soccer without over-application of offside calls. The rules need to be updated and brought into the 21st century.

[Skydog]

VAR has revolutionized, for better AND for worse, the application of offside rules. Today's Premier League mega-match between Man City and Liverpool provides yet another example of the absurd extremes to which offside is awarded. MC's third goal was exquisite, but because an eyelash of Sterling was beyond the last defender it was disallowed. I exaggerate, but not by much; the announcers were in agreement prior to the ruling that Sterling was not offside, and to my eye they were correct. It is difficult enough to score in soccer without over-application of offside calls. The rules need to be updated and brought into the 21st century.

Indubitably. The way the offside rule is being applied with VAR, especially combined with the strictness of the EPL, is ridiculous and kills the excitement of the game. The offside rule should changed so that it is based on foot position only. If both of your feet aren’t past the last defender why should the game care about body lean or if someone’s nose is past a virtual line?

[budwom]

quite the roller coaster match between Madrid and Chelsea yesterday...I'm going to guess the announcers weren't at the stadium because they had no clue as to who was scoring or doing what...I seemed to have a better view than they did.

[Phredd3]

Indubitably. The way the offside rule is being applied with VAR, especially combined with the strictness of the EPL, is ridiculous and kills the excitement of the game. The offside rule should changed so that it is based on foot position only. If both of your feet aren’t past the last defender why should the game care about body lean or if someone’s nose is past a virtual line?

The offside rule doesn't need to be changed at all, nor does the VAR rule. They both just need to be enforced as written. First, the offside rule, as written in the 21/22 FIFA Laws of the Game, Law 11, Offside:

"1. ... A player is not in an offside position if level with the:

• second-last opponent, or
• last two opponents"

Next, the VAR rules from the same place, in the VAR Protocol portion of the Laws (not assigned a Law number):

"1. Principles
The use of VARs in football matches is based on a number of principles, all of which must apply in every match using VARs.

1. A video assistant referee (VAR) is a match official, with independent access to match footage, who may assist the referee only in the event of a ‘clear and obvious error’ or ‘serious missed incident’ [emphasis in original] in relation to:
a. Goal/no goal
...
3. A original decision given by the referee will not be changed unless the video review clearly shows that the decision was a 'clear and obvious error'.
...
2. Reviewable match-changing decisions/incidents
...
The referee’s original decision will not be changed unless there was a ‘clear and obvious error’ (this includes any decision made by the referee based on information from another match official e.g. offside)." [my emphasis, this time]


The way the rule is currently enforced, there is literally no way any player is ever considered "level" with another player. Furthermore, drawing lines on a video screen does not demonstrate that a "clear and obvious error" has been committed. If it is clear and obvious, why do we need the lines?

VARs should be allowed to eyeball it on review, and if the offside was not called on the field (this particular one wasn't) and the VAR official cannot see with the naked, human eye that the original decision was clearly incorrect, then the on-field decision should stand. For some reason people feel that the lines remove all doubt. They don't. The exact position of the line itself is a judgement decision. Further, as I pointed out, the idea of them conflicts with the idea that a player can be level. The lines should be eliminated from the review booth. If you can't EASILY and IMMEDIATELY tell with just your eyeball that the on-field refs got it wrong, then it should stand. And the on-field ref should be the one going to the monitor and making the final decision, if VAR believes an obvious error was made, just as they do for handballs and red cards. Offside should not be be treated any differently.

[75Crazie]

The offside rule doesn't need to be changed at all, nor does the VAR rule. They both just need to be enforced as written. First, the offside rule, as written in the 21/22 FIFA Laws of the Game, Law 11, Offside:

"1. ... A player is not in an offside position if level with the:

• second-last opponent, or
• last two opponents"

If that is indeed the rule (and I'll have to take your word for it, I'm not a rule maven), then it seems to me to be nebulous in the extreme. What constitutes "level" with regard to the human body (which is highly irregular in shape)? The VAR officials seem to be applying an extreme interpretation of it, where if (for example) one limb is extended so that the tip is beyond the opponent's body, then it is regarded as offiside. I think your original sentence is basically correct but incomplete; the rule doesn't need to be changed, but rather clarified to make it crystal clear just what is meant by "level".

[Phredd3]

If that is indeed the rule (and I'll have to take your word for it, I'm not a rule maven), then it seems to me to be nebulous in the extreme. What constitutes "level" with regard to the human body (which is highly irregular in shape)? The VAR officials seem to be applying an extreme interpretation of it, where if (for example) one limb is extended so that the tip is beyond the opponent's body, then it is regarded as offiside. I think your original sentence is basically correct but incomplete; the rule doesn't need to be changed, but rather clarified to make it crystal clear just what is meant by "level".

They do, I just didn't quote it. For reference, here's the first part of Law 11:

"1. Offside position
It is not an offence to be in an offside position.

A player is in an offside position if:
• any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
• any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered. For the purposes of determining offside, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit."

That last sentence is a new addition to the Laws. Later, the same Law does describe in considerable detail when being in a offside position constitutes an "offence". (Yeah, that's a British spelling I have trouble getting used to.)

I guess you could clarify what "level" is, but I think it is generally regarded as "not ahead". The rules were written 100 years ago, so not a lot of clarity was needed, and I don't really think any more is needed here, either. A player can be level. That's all you really need to know if you are reviewing with the eye. You only need the extra detail if you want to parse lines on a video screen.

[75Crazie]

Thanks, Phredd3. If it were up to me, I'd amend the rule to just reference the torso and ignore the limbs and head; in other words, the basic body mass (which I think is really the important part here). But, going by the rule as you stated, I can think of at least two recent cases (including the Stirling goal in the ManC/Liverpool match) which did not appear to violate that rule but which VAR overturned by declaring offside. And that confirms your assessment that realistic and reasonable application of the existing rule is the important thing here. Technology should never be used to subvert the game itself, and I think that is what is happening now.

[75Crazie]

Three minutes after Jorginho whiffs on an 86th minute penalty kick with the score 0-0, Pulisic (who subbed in late in the second half) scores the winner for Chelsea over West Ham.

[wilson]

Technically not Premier League, but there’s one PL side involved…
If you’re not watching the Madrid-Man City UCL match, you need to turn it on now.
My goodness.

[ClemmonsDevil]

Technically not Premier League, but there’s one PL side involved…
If you’re not watching the Madrid-Man City UCL match, you need to turn it on now.
My goodness.

NUTS!!!!!!

[Phredd3]

NUTS!!!!!!

As a Man City fan, that was agonizing. City are snake bit in the UCL.

[75Crazie]

Nice to see ManU putting in such a stellar effort today. My schadenfreude is kicking in big time.

[OldPhiKap]

Nice to see ManU putting in such a stellar effort today. My schadenfreude is kicking in big time.

That was brutal. And great.

[Furniture]

That was brutal. And great.

Ralf Rangnick has been a total disaster. He has managed to make the team worse...I am not a Man U fan at all but it sort of irritates even me. Imagine their fans.