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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    There were many many posters here bemoaning that decision. I don't believe I am over-stating it.

    My only point was that it seemed incredibly silly to call it a mistake until the entire thing plays out. If Baker ends up leaving with a year of eligibility still on the table - perhaps it wasn't as big a mistake as folks made it out to be. There's other permutations I would say also qualify, but this seems the most likely at this particular juncture.
    It might be also worth pointing out that, regardless of what happens--whether he plays one more season, or two; whether he finishes his career at Duke, or elsewhere; whether he wins zero titles, or one, or two--he traded in one complete year of eligibility for 18 minutes of playing time.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by fgb View Post
    It might be also worth pointing out that, regardless of what happens--whether he plays one more season, or two; whether he finishes his career at Duke, or elsewhere; whether he wins zero titles, or one, or two--he traded in one complete year of eligibility for 18 minutes of playing time.
    Well, the question from my perspective is - at the end of Joey Baker's Duke career, will we be wishing he had more eligibility? Clearly, if he forgoes a year, grad transfers, is told the schollies are all used up - the answer is "no."

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Honestly nothing personal; I just feel like this subject was fully played-out more than two years ago.

    Perhaps Iím wrong.
    We love to litigate, relitigate, and re-relitigate. My point all along was that declaring it to be a mistake was premature, and that a objective perspective wouldn't be possible for several years.

  4. #704
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    A snarky response and several replies have been deleted. Let's be on good behavior, friends.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    We love to litigate, relitigate, and re-relitigate. My point all along was that declaring it to be a mistake was premature, and that a objective perspective wouldn't be possible for several years.
    Yeah, I get it. This redshirt thing (aka ďThe issue that refused to dieĒ) is a great example of DBRís quirky, yet endearing charm.

    Fellow DBRers, please proceed in what has now become an almost Holy Grail-like quest to bring definitive clarity to the Joey Baker redshirt saga. I salute thee, one and all! 🍺

  6. #706
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Yeah, I get it. This redshirt thing (aka “The issue that refused to die”) is a great example of DBR’s quirky, yet endearing charm.

    ��
    You mean cinder blocks aren't an accepted measuring standard?

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Well, the question from my perspective is - at the end of Joey Baker's Duke career, will we be wishing he had more eligibility? Clearly, if he forgoes a year, grad transfers, is told the schollies are all used up - the answer is "no."
    I'd say it's a high, high likelihood that if Baker does not return for 2022-2023 it won't be because Duke is out of scholarships.

    After this season, we know Theon John and Bates Jones are gone, and almost certainly Banchero and Griffin will be, and in all likelihood so would Mark Williams.

    So, at most you'd expect 4 other returnees next year, max (Roach, Moore, Keels and Blakes). If by some crazy circumstance all of Roach, Moore, Keels and Mark Williams return, plus Blakes and Baker, that's an absolute max of 6 scholarships taken, and then the three commits to date (Whitehead, Flip and Schutt) gets to 9. Even if Scheyer runs the table on the offers reported to be outstanding (to Lively, Mark Mitchell, JJ Starling and Anthony Black -- which in itself seems very, very unlikely as Starling and Black basically play the same position so it's hard to see getting both) that would still only get Duke to the maximum allowed (13).

  8. #708
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    There were many many posters here bemoaning that decision. I don't believe I am over-stating it.

    My only point was that it seemed incredibly silly to call it a mistake until the entire thing plays out. If Baker ends up leaving with a year of eligibility still on the table - perhaps it wasn't as big a mistake as folks made it out to be. There's other permutations I would say also qualify, but this seems the most likely at this particular juncture.
    I mean, I was one of those bemoaning the decision. And I still do. It was dumb. He played 18 minutes, and it was clear from the first game he wasn’t going to make an impact that year. There doesn’t seem a reasonable argument that playing him there - when you knew he wasn’t going to make a difference - at the expense of the opportunity for a fifth year made sense. You essentially traded a year’s worth of eligibility for 18 minutes, most of which were in garbage time.

    Now, the decision may not end up being costly. But it was dumb, and that is what folks were bemoaning. That the outcome might luck into not mattering doesn’t make it not dumb.
    Last edited by CDu; 09-10-2021 at 10:53 PM.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I mean, I was one of those bemoaning the decision. And I still do. It was dumb. He played 18 minutes, and it was clear from the first game he wasnít going to make an impact that year. There doesnít seem a reasonable argument that playing him there - when you knew he wasnít going to make a difference - at the expense of the opportunity for a fifth year made sense. You essentially traded a yearís worth of eligibility for 18 minutes, most of which were in garbage time.

    Now, the decision may not end up being costly. But it was dumb, and that is what folks were bemoaning. That the outcome might luck into not mattering doesnít make it not dumb.
    The decision was desperate.

    That team really needed shooting and Baker looked like he might be a port in the lane clogging storm. Of course he wasnít, but desperate times call for checking out all of the clogged ports to try to find shelter from the storm of missed threes. Or something along those lines.

    I do appreciate the enthusiasm and optimism in this thread and on DBR in general that Baker will become an in-game contributor.

  10. #710
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    The decision was desperate.

    That team really needed shooting and Baker looked like he might be a port in the lane clogging storm. Of course he wasnít, but desperate times call for checking out all of the clogged ports to try to find shelter from the storm of missed threes. Or something along those lines.

    I do appreciate the enthusiasm and optimism in this thread and on DBR in general that Baker will become an in-game contributor.
    But hereís the thing: they never even gave him the opportunity to be a 3-pt threat. So they had to know that he wasnít going to make an impact.

    It would be one thing if they put him in and gave him serious run for a few games to see if he could help. But they didnít. So it just goes back to being a dumb and wasteful move. They didnít allow for any upside in the move to offset the downside.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    But hereís the thing: they never even gave him the opportunity to be a 3-pt threat. So they had to know that he wasnít going to make an impact.

    It would be one thing if they put him in and gave him serious run for a few games to see if he could help. But they didnít. So it just goes back to being a dumb and wasteful move. They didnít allow for any upside in the move to offset the downside.
    (Can't believe we're doing this again)

    It isn't dumb and wasteful if he doesn't have ACC level talent. It was a desperation heave that didn't pan out, but it wasn't wasteful.

    If Baker hasn't impacted the lineup by the end of this coming season, nothing of value was "wasted."

  12. #712
    For the love of God END this ...please, please just end this !

    I hate this relitigating for no purpose...please end this.

    Let's get back to our 2022 recruiting and what a super class it's becoming.

  13. #713
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    We love to litigate, relitigate, and re-relitigate. My point all along was that declaring it to be a mistake was premature, and that a objective perspective wouldn't be possible for several years.
    I donít agree with this. You canít judge the quality of decisions by the way things turn out. You should judge whether a leader made the best choice given the information they had. Good decisions turn out badly and poor decisions turn out well all the time. That doesnít mean the quality of the decisions changes with the perspective of time. It just means the leader got lucky or unlucky.

  14. #714
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    (Can't believe we're doing this again)

    It isn't dumb and wasteful if he doesn't have ACC level talent. It was a desperation heave that didn't pan out, but it wasn't wasteful.

    If Baker hasn't impacted the lineup by the end of this coming season, nothing of value was "wasted."
    You brought it up. You knew what would happen when you did that.

    And yes, it was wasteful. Players develop at different paces. Baker has ACC talent. More talent than, say Melchionni. There was no way of knowing how much he would develop in 3-4 years. They knew he didnít have ACC readiness as a freshman. That is why he was redshirting in the first place.

    I completely agree with you and cato that it was a desperation move. But desperation moves are typically bad decisions. Just like this one was. They got lucky in that the bad decision might not prove costly. But it was a bad decision.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    You brought it up. You knew what would happen when you did that.

    And yes, it was wasteful. Players develop at different paces. Baker has ACC talent. More talent than, say Melchionni. There was no way of knowing how much he would develop in 3-4 years. They knew he didnít have ACC readiness as a freshman. That is why he was redshirting in the first place.

    I completely agree with you and cato that it was a desperation move. But desperation moves are typically bad decisions. Just like this one was. They got lucky in that the bad decision might not prove costly. But it was a bad decision.
    I brought it up because someone said Baker didn't have a spot on the next year's team. If that's the case, than clearly nothing of value was lost.

  16. #716
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I read that Lively is hosting an open gym type of thing, several of the top programs are in to see him this weekend. Would be truly amazing if Jon could land him.

  17. #717
    It seems we're the clear leader for Mark Mitchell and JJ Starling.

    Lively is clearly a priority recruit. Do we have any back up plans should we miss on him? UK seems to have offers out to Bona and Lively, so I'd imagine 1 commits there.

  18. #718
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I brought it up because someone said Baker didn't have a spot on the next year's team. If that's the case, than clearly nothing of value was lost.
    And you should have known what would happen by bringing it up. Especially when you misstated what those bemoaning the decision were saying. You donít get to stoke the fire and then complain that things are burning.

    We may or may not lose any major value. That doesnít make the decision a fine decision. Process over outcome. It was a panic move, and not a good decision. It may or may not turn out to be a painful bad decision. But it was a bad decision.

  19. #719
    Gee whiz, this stuff is not life and death. Ease up.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by jaywilliams22 View Post
    It seems we're the clear leader for Mark Mitchell and JJ Starling.

    Lively is clearly a priority recruit. Do we have any back up plans should we miss on him? UK seems to have offers out to Bona and Lively, so I'd imagine 1 commits there.
    It seems to me like Duke is the clear leader for Mitchell.

    For Starling, I'm not so sure. There's just been one crystal ball pick for Starling to Duke, and it was a medium confidence pick. He's going on official visits this month. This weekend, he is at Syracuse. The Orange have been thought of as a leader for Starling. We'll see if there are any changes in the crystal ball after this weekend. I like Duke's chances with the last official visit.

    My guess with the frontcourt is that the staff really wants Lively and have made him a priority. As it is, Filipowski could play a lot of minutes at the 5 for Duke next season. Even if Duke lands Lively, I bet we'll see a transfer next offseason, probably a 3rd or 4th year player that wants an extra year and can provide senior leadership. If Duke misses on Lively, there might be two transfers in the frontcourt.

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