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  1. #1

    Double Jeopardy?

    Must confess, I'm rather ignorant of our legal system. How does double jeopardy specifically apply to Jeffrey Epstein?

    Have not heard it mentioned, so, it must not be an issue. Why is it not an issue? When is it an issue?

  2. #2
    One of the articles that came up when I googled it.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...eopardy-rules/

    Has some useful discussion of the finer points vs. precedents.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Must confess, I'm rather ignorant of our legal system. How does double jeopardy specifically apply to Jeffrey Epstein?

    Have not heard it mentioned, so, it must not be an issue. Why is it not an issue? When is it an issue?
    Maybe.

    He cannot be prosecuted for the same crimes by the same sovereign. That does not mean that he cannot be prosecuted for other crimes, nor does it generally mean that another sovereign (i.e. a State) cannot prosecute its separate laws.

    The big issue here will be whether the non-prosecution agreement entered into in Florida binds a federal Court in New York. I am assuming these are different accusers but do not know.

    I am a civil lawyer though so others may know better than this response.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Must confess, I'm rather ignorant of our legal system. How does double jeopardy specifically apply to Jeffrey Epstein?

    Have not heard it mentioned, so, it must not be an issue. Why is it not an issue? When is it an issue?
    Why would it apply?
    Carolina delenda est

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Maybe.

    He cannot be prosecuted for the same crimes by the same sovereign. That does not mean that he cannot be prosecuted for other crimes, nor does it generally mean that another sovereign (i.e. a State) cannot prosecute its separate laws.

    The big issue here will be whether the non-prosecution agreement entered into in Florida binds a federal Court in New York. I am assuming these are different accusers but do not know.

    I am a civil lawyer though so others may know better than this response.
    IANAL, but my understanding is that they can't enter into an agreement that binds US attorneys in another district. The other question of different sovereigns is one that I think recently went to the Supreme Court* because of a case in New York. New York prosecutors like to take advantage of it.

    *Just checked - the court ruled last month 7-2 in Gamble v. United States, upholding dual sovereignty. Not a New York case this time, but Alabama and the feds.

  6. #6
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    The earlier plea deal deviated from the standard deal involving multiple districts. This one uses the language of "global" prosecutions and was approved at some level by DOJ higher-ups. That language will create a problem for the Southern New York office going forward. I would not want to hazard a guess where that language will lead. In my field, NLRB, that would kill existing cases, but not new ones, but those cases were not criminal.

    This is not double jeopardy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    He cannot be prosecuted for the same crimes by the same sovereign. That does not mean that he cannot be prosecuted for other crimes, nor does it generally mean that another sovereign (i.e. a State) cannot prosecute its separate laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by BLPOG
    The other question of different sovereigns is one that I think recently went to the Supreme Court* because of a case in New York. New York prosecutors like to take advantage of it.

    *Just checked - the court ruled last month 7-2 in Gamble v. United States, upholding dual sovereignty. Not a New York case this time, but Alabama and the feds.
    Why is it very rare for the Federal Government to prosecute after a State Court finds the person not guilty? It appeared O.J. Simpson had no fear, at all...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Why is it very rare for the Federal Government to prosecute after a State Court finds the person not guilty? It appeared O.J. Simpson had no fear, at all...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It
    I don't know the specifics of that case beyond memory, but homicide generally is a state-law crime. There may not have been a federal law implicated.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Why is it very rare for the Federal Government to prosecute after a State Court finds the person not guilty? It appeared O.J. Simpson had no fear, at all...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It
    This is not a situation where a defendant was prosecuted, had a trial and was found not guilty.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I don't know the specifics of that case beyond memory, but homicide generally is a state-law crime. There may not have been a federal law implicated.
    There is no federal law against murder?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    This is not a situation where a defendant was prosecuted, had a trial and was found not guilty.
    Yes, I understand Epstein got a deal. I'm also trying to understand double jeopardy, thus the O.J. question.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    There is no federal law against murder?
    There is: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1111

    See "Petite" policy in 4.1 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Jeopardy_Clause

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    Thank you!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    There is no federal law against murder?
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    But that statute only applies where there is federal jurisdiction. Murder is a crime triable in state courts only, where the crims is not committed on government property or where there are other circumstances that would give federal jurisdiction. See, e.g. 243 F.Supp. 22 (N.D.Tx. 1965).

    The federal government -- at least theoretically -- is a government of limited power, with the remaining powers still vested in the states. While the feds claim jurisdiction over certain matters because of the Commerce Clause (drugs, guns, etc.) and certain federally-tied places (federally insured banks, post offices, etc.), this was a local knife crime with no discernable federal jurisdiction AFAIK.

    So the broad answer is that there is a federal murder law -- but it does not apply to all murders. Only murders which through statute or constitutional provision fall within the federal jurisdictional ambit. The only federal murder cases I can recall of late arise out of drug deals, bank robberies, or folks like the Oklahoma City bombers who bombed a federal office and used the tools of interstate commerce for their crime. Mailing bombs (like the Unibomber) will likewise draw federal jurisdiction.

    Note that this is all a simplification of large Con Law concepts.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  15. #15
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    Good blog article on the federalism issue I tried to articulate:

    https://www.wklaw.com/10-ways-murder...federal-crime/

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Good blog article on the federalism issue I tried to articulate:

    https://www.wklaw.com/10-ways-murder...federal-crime/
    Much thanks!

    Iím slightly less ignorant, thanks to you. Learning rocks!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Much thanks!

    Iím slightly less ignorant, thanks to you. Learning rocks!
    And I have learned much about the markets from you. DBR is a great community.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    And I have learned much about the markets from you.
    Thanks, if I can ever help, please send me a PM. My advice, to you, is free and I guarantee it will be worth every penny. Where else are you going to get a deal like that?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Where else are you going to get a deal like that?
    Reading almost any thread on DBR? 😂

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