2019-20 DWBB Season

[jimsumner]

Let's keep context and history in mind.

After leading the women's basketball team to 10 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances, 7 Elite Eight appearances (in the prior 10 seasons), two national championship games and a record-shattering 2006-2007 season (when she was honored as women's basketball coach of the year), head coach Gail Goestenkors left Duke for the University of Texas.

--- Top administrators did a poor job of demonstrating to Goestenkors how much they valued her contributions to the University.
Neither President Richard Brodhead nor Director of Athletics Joe Alleva showed up at a March 29 rally outside Coach G's office, even though Brodhead was a conspicuous participant in a similar 2004 rally to persuade men's basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski to stay at Duke.

--- When AD Joe Alleva was asked why Goestenkors' compensation pales in comparison to Tennessee's Pat Summitt and Connecticut's Geno Auriemma, he said:
"They've both won a lot of national championships and are part of programs that make money for their institutions. They bring in profit for their athletic departments, and that's not the case for our women's program. I'm sure some of these other institutions will offer significantly large packages to encourage her to go."


During a time when Texas was recruiting her, Alleva diminished and devalued her accomplishments -- and did so very publicly. And although Alleva contrasted the program's (lack of) profitability to its rivals at Connecticut and Tennessee, he did not explain how at least four Big Twelve schools guaranteed their coaches total compensation between $540,000 and $800,000 for 2006-2007.

Texas Women's AD Chris Plonsky seemed to provide everything that Alleva did not: respect, admiration, control, etc.

So, we agree.

[uh_no]

And she didn't do all that well at Texas, FWIW. As Professor Hill said, got to know the territory.

Trouble with a capital T that rhymes with P and stands for....Poor fundamentals?

But minor point of contention, Professor Hill never claimed that you have to know the territory. It was the other salesmen who claimed that you must and that Professor Hill didn't.

[AZLA]

Let's keep context and history in mind.

After leading the women's basketball team to 10 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances, 7 Elite Eight appearances (in the prior 10 seasons), two national championship games and a record-shattering 2006-2007 season (when she was honored as women's basketball coach of the year), head coach Gail Goestenkors left Duke for the University of Texas.

--- Top administrators did a poor job of demonstrating to Goestenkors how much they valued her contributions to the University.
Neither President Richard Brodhead nor Director of Athletics Joe Alleva showed up at a March 29 rally outside Coach G's office, even though Brodhead was a conspicuous participant in a similar 2004 rally to persuade men's basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski to stay at Duke.

--- When AD Joe Alleva was asked why Goestenkors' compensation pales in comparison to Tennessee's Pat Summitt and Connecticut's Geno Auriemma, he said:
"They've both won a lot of national championships and are part of programs that make money for their institutions. They bring in profit for their athletic departments, and that's not the case for our women's program. I'm sure some of these other institutions will offer significantly large packages to encourage her to go."


During a time when Texas was recruiting her, Alleva diminished and devalued her accomplishments -- and did so very publicly. And although Alleva contrasted the program's (lack of) profitability to its rivals at Connecticut and Tennessee, he did not explain how at least four Big Twelve schools guaranteed their coaches total compensation between $540,000 and $800,000 for 2006-2007.

Texas Women's AD Chris Plonsky seemed to provide everything that Alleva did not: respect, admiration, control, etc.

Thanks for the extra context. That's too bad. One would think being a "basketball school" the culture would permeate to both programs in terms of the AD's support. In a sense it definitely did when Goestenkor was driving the bus and leading the team to success; but based on what you're writing -- sounds like there wasn't the same level of support for such a national and upward trending program. Consider this, Duke was one unfortunate play that didn't go their way, from winning the Championship. It would be akin to Duke's 1986 loss to Louisville. Retrospectively, making it to the Championship game, though losing it, historically that year is the milestone when the men's program turned the corner and paved the way for more subsequent Final Fours/Finals and the '91 and '92 Championships. It's unfortunate that the women's team didn't follow the same course. And if it's because of compensation/support, hopefully a lesson was learned.

[budwom]

yes, as little as I know about the inner workings of Duke's athletic department finance (and costs can be allocated any way you like), I'd bet that the WBB program under G did a whole lot better financially (i.e. lost considerably less money) than it does under McCallie...attendance is now WAY down, coach's salary is way up. Even I can do that math.

[uh_no]

yes, as little as I know about the inner workings of Duke's athletic department finance (and costs can be allocated any way you like), I'd bet that the WBB program under G did a whole lot better financially (i.e. lost considerably less money) than it does under McCallie...attendance is now WAY down, coach's salary is way up. Even I can do that math.

I don't think there is any ex-post-facto argument that not retaining coach G looks good under. Fortunately the university and department are in a much different, and arguably better place now.

[budwom]

I don't think there is any ex-post-facto argument that not retaining coach G looks good under. Fortunately the university and department are in a much different, and arguably better place now.

certainly White is much more capable, by and large, than Alleva, though his bunglement of WBB is a definite black mark...

[CameronBlue]

Trouble with a capital T that rhymes with P and stands for...Poor fundamentals?

But minor point of contention, Professor Hill never claimed that you have to know the territory. It was the other salesmen who claimed that you must and that Professor Hill didn't.

Minor point of contention x 2, it was Charlie Cowell, anvil salesman, (well anvilettes as I wasn't about to carry a full-sized anvil on-stage for the 30-show run of a regional theater production. So I created the "Anvil-Ette" sample case.) No other salesman had the "gotta know the territory line."*

[uh_no]

Minor point of contention x 2, it was Charlie Cowell, anvil salesman, (well anvilettes as I wasn't about to carry a full-sized anvil on-stage for the 30-show run of a regional theater production. So I created the "Anvil-Ette" sample case.) No other salesman had the "gotta know the territory line."

Well, it seems that two other salesmen claimed he didn't know the territory, which I think is an implicit agreement with Charlie that the territory must be known.

[jimsumner]

I'm more of a Sondheim guy myself. But I thought invoking Sweeney Todd might be a bad idea.

[uh_no]

I'm more of a Sondheim guy myself. But I thought invoking Sweeney Todd might be a bad idea.

Dear kindly Sergeant Swofford
You gotta understand
It's just a class was offered
every student in the land!
Our students all are flunkies
Our teachers all are chumps
Golly Moses, a total garbage dump!

Gee, Officer Swofford
We're down on our knees
'Cause we don't want to take down such a banner as these
Gee, Officer Swofford
What are we to do?
Gee, Officer Swofford
Swoff you!

[buddy]

Alleva did not appear to make any effort to keep G. I attended P's introductory press conference. Alleva made if a point to emphasize that Duke wanted to have a "family atmosphere" for the women's team, and discussed McCallie's husband and kids. I took that as a shot at G who was divorced and rumored to have a special same sex friend. Alleva was clearly not a G fan. Or maybe he only tolerated her while Chubby Checker provided celebrity national anthem talent

[AustinDevil]

Alleva did not appear to make any effort to keep G. I attended P's introductory press conference. Alleva made if a point to emphasize that Duke wanted to have a "family atmosphere" for the women's team, and discussed McCallie's husband and kids. I took that as a shot at G who was divorced and rumored to have a special same sex friend. Alleva was clearly not a G fan. Or maybe he only tolerated her while Chubby Checker provided celebrity national anthem talent

I once referenced G being out while in Austin and was almost/sort-of shut down around here for casting aspersions on G. As a gay man myself, that was not at all my intention. The truth is, she was in the process of coming out during her final days at Duke, and it is my opinion that that did not go over well with some at Duke, foremost among them Alleva.

[CamrnCrz1974]

Texas offered Goestenkors more money than she was making at Duke.

Duke declined to meet the offer.

I wish they had.

But they didn't and she left.

And she didn't do all that well at Texas, FWIW. As Professor Hill said, got to know the territory.

Let's keep context and history in mind.

After leading the women's basketball team to 10 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances, 7 Elite Eight appearances (in the prior 10 seasons), two national championship games and a record-shattering 2006-2007 season (when she was honored as women's basketball coach of the year), head coach Gail Goestenkors left Duke for the University of Texas.

--- Top administrators did a poor job of demonstrating to Goestenkors how much they valued her contributions to the University.
Neither President Richard Brodhead nor Director of Athletics Joe Alleva showed up at a March 29 rally outside Coach G's office, even though Brodhead was a conspicuous participant in a similar 2004 rally to persuade men's basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski to stay at Duke.

--- When AD Joe Alleva was asked why Goestenkors' compensation pales in comparison to Tennessee's Pat Summitt and Connecticut's Geno Auriemma, he said:
"They've both won a lot of national championships and are part of programs that make money for their institutions. They bring in profit for their athletic departments, and that's not the case for our women's program. I'm sure some of these other institutions will offer significantly large packages to encourage her to go."


During a time when Texas was recruiting her, Alleva diminished and devalued her accomplishments -- and did so very publicly. And although Alleva contrasted the program's (lack of) profitability to its rivals at Connecticut and Tennessee, he did not explain how at least four Big Twelve schools guaranteed their coaches total compensation between $540,000 and $800,000 for 2006-2007.

Texas Women's AD Chris Plonsky seemed to provide everything that Alleva did not: respect, admiration, control, etc.

So, we agree.

Yes, we agree - if by "we agree" you mean that your post involved the abolition of context and the totality of circumstances that took place at the time.

[jimsumner]

Yes, we agree - if by "we agree" you mean that your post involved the abolition of context and the totality of circumstances that took place at the time.

Texas offered Goestenkors more money.

Duke didn't match the offer.

G left for Texas.

With what part of that do you disagree?

If Duke had raised her salary to the Texas offer, she would have stayed at Duke.

How do I know this? She told me.

Were there sidebars? Sure. But it's a business decision and Duke made a business decision. A bad one, as it turned out.

[jimsumner]

For those of you into looking at tea leaves, I'll offer this.

Kevin White is in attendance at all of Krzyzewski's post-game press conferences at home and many on the road.

The same with Cut.

It's been years since I've seen him at one of McCallie's post-game press conferences.

For what it's worth.

[chris13]

One funny thing about the front page article about the Clemson streak is that Duke had it's version of Dick Baddour in Joe Alleva. Long time assistant AD, promoted to the head job largely at the behest of the head basketball coach ahead of more qualified candidates. Baddour and Alleva proceed to illustrate the Peter principle and make several bad personnel decisions, and then are replaced by a Notre Dame affliated successors who are siignificant upgrades (Bubba Cunningham, Kevin White). I raise my Bud Light to the Admiral of Hyco Lake, Joe Alleva.

[Kedsy]

I do not agree that turnovers per possession or "layups missed" encapsulates all or nearly all of the concerns about a lack of fundamentals.

Turnovers and missed layups were the two specific issues discussed in this thread, so that's what I focused on. Duke's defense under Coach P has been really good over the years, so if it's defensive fundamentals you're talking about, I think you're off base. If you're talking setting screens or PNR or the like, there aren't any stats to focus on and no way to "prove" anything, either way.

Or, put another way, what are your specific "concerns" about Duke's lack of fundamentals (other than turnovers and missed layups)? What evidence do you have that your concerns are valid?

I do not agree that two-point FG% somehow stands in for "layups missed."

Publicly available women's basketball stats are limited. If you can point me to a source of stats that would be better (for example, that would show layups missed), please let me know. I'd appreciate it.

I do not agree that you've proven that a 23.8% turnover average and a 21.9% turnover average (G's average for the years you used versus P's average for the same)--or a 50.5 2-point FG% and a 48.2 2-point FG% (ditto)--are collectively "in the same ballpark," but that's such subjective phrasing that it is fairly meaningless.

OK, first of all, you calculated the "average" incorrectly. If you want actual averages you'd have to take the total number of possessions, turnovers, 2pt FGAs, and 2pt FGs and calculate from there. However, even if you had calculated the numbers correctly, in a 70-possession game with 45 2pt attempts, the difference between your average G numbers and your average P numbers amounts to approximately a one (1) turnover per game difference and a one (1) 2pt FG per game difference. You don't think that's in the same ballpark?

Second, if you look at the turnover numbers (for example), Coach G's teams had two seasons that were a lot better than the other seven. Coach P's teams had two seasons that were a lot worse than the others. If you take out those outliers, the turnover numbers for the two coaches in the selected seasons are very, very close to each other. Obviously, you can't totally discount the best and worst seasons that way, which is why I said Coach G's numbers were better. On the other hand, if seven seasons out of nine on each side were virtually identical, I think "in the same ballpark" is quite accurate.

Finally, I said in my post that G's numbers were better but not nearly better enough to justify all the badmouthing around here. Feel free to disagree with that, but if you do, in my opinion you're wrong.

Last, you seem to be using the year indicator as the year in which the season ended (e.g., "1999" for the 1998-99 season). If that's the case, why did you ignore the 2018-19 WBB season, when Duke's turnover results were fairly bad and field-goal shooting percentage (all FGs, I did not bother to track down the 2-pt percentage separate from the 3-pt percentage) was atrocious? The trend line matters...

Well, first of all, I did mention that last season and this season weren't very good for Coach P, so it wasn't like I was trying to hide something. Second, I used nine seasons for Coach G so I wanted to use nine seasons for Coach P as well (and she's been here more than nine seasons, so I couldn't use them all). The Coach G numbers were more or less cherry picked to show her best years (completely ignoring her worst years) and in that light I saw no reason to include Coach P's worst year as a comparison.

Finally, trend lines might matter to you, but they have nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The fact is, many posters around here were highly critical of Coach P in her good years too. I don't know if you were among them, but based on your hostile tone my guess is you probably were (I apologize if I'm incorrect on that point). My point was not to say Coach G and Coach P were equivalent -- there's no point discussing something like that with an angry mob already equipped with tar and feathers. My point was to say people around here overly glorify Coach G's performance and overly demonize Coach P's performance, when the truth is in each coach's peak years the team's overall performance was not all that different.

[uh_no]

Second, if you look at the turnover numbers (for example), Coach G's teams had two seasons that were a lot better than the other seven. Coach P's teams had two seasons that were a lot worse than the others. If you take out those outliers, the turnover numbers for the two coaches in the selected seasons are very, very close to each other. Obviously, you can't totally discount the best and worst seasons that way, which is why I said Coach G's numbers were better. On the other hand, if seven seasons out of nine on each side were virtually identical, I think "in the same ballpark" is quite accurate.

Except for select coaches who are all time greats, almost every coach in the world is judged by their outlier seasons, or lack thereof...especially in one direction. A mediocre coach who sometimes has great teams is far better than a mediocre coach who sometimes has terrible teams. And 2 out of 7 is a huge number to discard. Of course we all wish we had more data.

I bet the players that transferred and the chronicle reporters who interviewed didn't need to be bad mouthed either.

[uh_no]

Except for select coaches who are all time greats, almost every coach in the world is judged by their outlier seasons, or lack thereof...especially in one direction. A mediocre coach who sometimes has great teams is far better than a mediocre coach who sometimes has terrible teams. And 2 out of 7 is a huge number to discard. Of course we all wish we had more data.

I bet the players that transferred and the chronicle reporters who interviewed didn't need to be bad mouthed either.

*2 out of 9

[CamrnCrz1974]

Well, first of all, I did mention that last season and this season weren't very good for Coach P, so it wasn't like I was trying to hide something. Second, I used nine seasons for Coach G so I wanted to use nine seasons for Coach P as well (and she's been here more than nine seasons, so I couldn't use them all). The Coach G numbers were more or less cherry picked to show her best years (completely ignoring her worst years) and in that light I saw no reason to include Coach P's worst year as a comparison.

Finally, trend lines might matter to you, but they have nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The fact is, many posters around here were highly critical of Coach P in her good years too. I don't know if you were among them, but based on your hostile tone my guess is you probably were (I apologize if I'm incorrect on that point). My point was not to say Coach G and Coach P were equivalent -- there's no point discussing something like that with an angry mob already equipped with tar and feathers. My point was to say people around here overly glorify Coach G's performance and overly demonize Coach P's performance, when the truth is in each coach's peak years the team's overall performance was not all that different.

I think this highlights the issue for many. Coach G's worst years were when she took over a program with very little tradition that was at or near the bottom of the ACC. Coach P's worst years have come more recently, as the program has trended downward. Duke could miss the NCAA Tournament for the third time in five years if this season does not turn around (hopefully, the win against VaTech and the return of Mikayla Boykin will jumpstart the squad).

As far as the team's overall performance being not all that different from the Coach G years to the Coach P years, looking at the best years of the program, I think it depends on the metrics you are using. You did a great job of gathering information regarding the number of possessions, turnovers, 2pt FGs, etc. (side note...when you have a chance, it would be great if you could please share where you were able to find that information, as I would like to add it to my "favorites").

But someone could point to the last 10 years of the Goestenkors era and compare it to 12 years of the McCallie tenure (not including 2019-20, the current season) to find this:

OVERALL RECORD:
Goestenkors: 301-46 (86.74 percent)
McCallie: 312-95 (76.65 percent)

ACC RECORD:
Goestenkors: 138-16 (89.61 percent)
McCallie: 138-48 (74.19 percent)

ACC FINISHES:
Goestenkors: 8 regular season ACC titles, 5 ACCT championships, 8 years finishing 1st, 2 years finishing 2nd
McCallie: 4 regular season ACC titles, 3 ACCT championships, 4 years finishing 1st, 2 years finishing 2nd, 2 years finishing 3rd, 2 years finishing 4th, 1 year finishing 7th, 1 year finishing 10th

NCAA RECORD:
Goestenkors: 33-10 (two NCAA runners-up, four Final Fours, seven years at least making the Elite Eight, all ten years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 21-10 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, seven years at least making the Sweet 16, three second round losses, two years missing the NCAAT altogether)

Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 18-18 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 8-36 (18.18 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 34-18 (65.38 percent)
McCallie: 22-49 (30.98 percent)

Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 81-34 (70.43 percent)
McCallie: 72-67 (51.79 percent)

Again, this is the last 10 years of Gail Goestenkors vs. 12 years of Joanne P. McCallie, not including 2019-20, the current season.

When I have a chance this week, I will have to run the numbers and use the best years of the McCallie era and compare it to the best years of the Goestenkors era. I will likely use 2009-10, 2010-11, 2011-12, and 2012-13, as these were the four years that McCallie's teams made the Elite Eight. The other really good McCallie years were 2008-09 (27-6 record), 2013-14 (28-6 record, lost Gray and Jones to injury later in the season), and 2016-17 (28-6 record, Lexie Brown's first year at Duke).

Anyway, you raised an interesting point about looking at the best years of each coach and the lens through which we look. Is it quality of play? Is it perceived quality of play? Is it year-end record? Is it NCAAT results?