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Thread: What if...

  1. #1
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    What if...


  2. #2
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    The 1942 article was excellent. Now I’m off to read about Red.
    Bob Green

  3. #3
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    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    Props to Jim "Turtledove" Sumner for a fun series on the front page.

    What if: 1942

    What if: Red Auerbach had stayed at Duke

    If you haven't seen them, take a gander!

    -jk
    Loved both articles, but the Auerbach article has Julio's name on it, not Jim's. Perhaps a correction is necessary?
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
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    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  4. #4
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    uh oh, a "complementary alert" has been issued for this area.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    uh oh, a "complementary alert" has been issued for this area.
    I am highly complimentary of Jim’s writing. I don’t think I will ever be complementary to Jim’s writing.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping William View Post
    I am highly complimentary of Jim’s writing. I don’t think I will ever be complementary to Jim’s writing.
    I think I have what takes to be complementary to Jim's writing. He could write the good parts and I could write the bad parts.

  7. #7
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    Bill Bradley and Duke

    Interesting and informative article by Jim Sumner. i arrived at Duke not long after Bradley no-showed, and everybody who was a hoops fan knew about the near miss. i had never read the full explanation of his changing his mind until Jim's story, although other contemporaries knew of it. During my days as a student there was an urban myth (perhaps) that at some point Bradley had arrived on campus and found the area next to the KA section covered with beer bottle glass from a party and this turned Bradley off. No idea whether this happened or, if it did, when this visit was. No reason to doubt the accuracy of the account Jim gives, but if it is the complete story, it makes one wonder whether, if Uncle Terry had established the Fleishman school of public policy it may have made any difference. in any event, Bradley was a heck of a college player and a good player later for the Knicks as well, before becoming a distinguished Senator. I have to say that he doesn't merit any admiration for not having the common courtesy to call Vic Bubas and tell him of his change of heart. And yes, Fred Hetzel whom perhaps we might have gotten had Bradley been more straightforward and considerate of Duke, was also a heck of player. Better college career than either Hack Tison or Jay Buckley. If memory serves, Spring of 1964 was the initial meeting between Duke and Davidson at the (not yet Cameron) Indoor Stadium. There was a lot of interest in the game. Lefty Driesell, Duke alum, coached Davidson and had been trying to get the game. After Duke won, Driesell declared that Duke was "chicken" if they would not schedule a game at Davidson. in a pre-game writeup i recall, there was a position by position comparison of the teams with Buckley being labeled Duke's "weak link." i have not looked up the game stats, but my memory is that Buckley (two inches taller than Hetzel) did quite well. In fact, after the article appeared, the Link played like a house on fire the rest of his senior season.

    I was privileged to see all of the Duke guys mentioned in the article who were a class or more behind Art Heyman play, and i knew several. Really added to the college experience. And - rumor had it - we came pretty close to getting Cotton Nash, who (I think) might have been Jeff Mullins' class. One can only speculate what might have happened with Heyman, Mullins, Bradley and Nash - not to mention other very talented guys. Perhaps Jim has some dependable info on Cotton Nash.

    And yes, the upset in the 1965 ACC Tournament by NC State and Larry WHO? was a really bitter pill. Some dipstick off the bench that nobody had heard of got absolutely enchanted, and Duke couldn't stop him. Only the conference champ went to the NCAA's and nobody went to the NIT. Being a confirmed Dog in the Manger, i was delighted when Bradley et al took out the Wuffies later.

    Next year, Duke did get a measure of revenge for the whuppin' Duke took from Michigan in 1965, when we beat Michigan in overtime in Michigan. Michigan started Cazzie Russell, Bill Bunting and Oliver Darden, that generation's Fab Five (less two). Russell had predicted (freshmen did not play varsity) that his class would win "at least" two NCAA titles. It didn't happen.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedweb View Post
    Next year, Duke did get a measure of revenge for the whuppin' Duke took from Michigan in 1965, when we beat Michigan in overtime in Michigan. Michigan started Cazzie Russell, Bill Bunting and Oliver Darden, that generation's Fab Five (less two). Russell had predicted (freshmen did not play varsity) that his class would win "at least" two NCAA titles. It didn't happen.
    The Bill Bunting I’m familiar with played for Carolina.
    Bob Green

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedweb View Post
    Interesting and informative article by Jim Sumner. i arrived at Duke not long after Bradley no-showed, and everybody who was a hoops fan knew about the near miss. i had never read the full explanation of his changing his mind until Jim's story, although other contemporaries knew of it. During my days as a student there was an urban myth (perhaps) that at some point Bradley had arrived on campus and found the area next to the KA section covered with beer bottle glass from a party and this turned Bradley off. No idea whether this happened or, if it did, when this visit was. No reason to doubt the accuracy of the account Jim gives, but if it is the complete story, it makes one wonder whether, if Uncle Terry had established the Fleishman school of public policy it may have made any difference. in any event, Bradley was a heck of a college player and a good player later for the Knicks as well, before becoming a distinguished Senator. I have to say that he doesn't merit any admiration for not having the common courtesy to call Vic Bubas and tell him of his change of heart. And yes, Fred Hetzel whom perhaps we might have gotten had Bradley been more straightforward and considerate of Duke, was also a heck of player. Better college career than either Hack Tison or Jay Buckley. If memory serves, Spring of 1964 was the initial meeting between Duke and Davidson at the (not yet Cameron) Indoor Stadium. There was a lot of interest in the game. Lefty Driesell, Duke alum, coached Davidson and had been trying to get the game. After Duke won, Driesell declared that Duke was "chicken" if they would not schedule a game at Davidson. in a pre-game writeup i recall, there was a position by position comparison of the teams with Buckley being labeled Duke's "weak link." i have not looked up the game stats, but my memory is that Buckley (two inches taller than Hetzel) did quite well. In fact, after the article appeared, the Link played like a house on fire the rest of his senior season.

    I was privileged to see all of the Duke guys mentioned in the article who were a class or more behind Art Heyman play, and i knew several. Really added to the college experience. And - rumor had it - we came pretty close to getting Cotton Nash, who (I think) might have been Jeff Mullins' class. One can only speculate what might have happened with Heyman, Mullins, Bradley and Nash - not to mention other very talented guys. Perhaps Jim has some dependable info on Cotton Nash.

    And yes, the upset in the 1965 ACC Tournament by NC State and Larry WHO? was a really bitter pill. Some dipstick off the bench that nobody had heard of got absolutely enchanted, and Duke couldn't stop him. Only the conference champ went to the NCAA's and nobody went to the NIT. Being a confirmed Dog in the Manger, i was delighted when Bradley et al took out the Wuffies later.

    Next year, Duke did get a measure of revenge for the whuppin' Duke took from Michigan in 1965, when we beat Michigan in overtime in Michigan. Michigan started Cazzie Russell, Bill Bunting and Oliver Darden, that generation's Fab Five (less two). Russell had predicted (freshmen did not play varsity) that his class would win "at least" two NCAA titles. It didn't happen.
    Bill Buntin was a year ahead of Russell and Darden at Michigan. Jim Myers. John Clawson and John Thompson--no, not that John Thompson-were also members of that Russell-Darden class. Duke and Michigan had some great games around that time. One of those was a big Michigan win in Ann Arbor early in the 1963-'64 season. Jay Buckley was badly outplayed in that game and one local paper referred to Buckley as Duke's "weak link." Buckley's teammates jokingly called him "Link" for the rest of the season. Buckley got his revenge in the Final Four.

    Don't know about Nash. But Duke did come very close to signing Rod Thorn, who was in Heyman's class. Thorn was a great student and really liked Duke's academics. Thorn was a native of Princeton, West Virginia, which later sent Alan Williams to Duke and Jimmy Miller to Virginia. This was just after Jerry West almost led WVU to a national title and Thorn received enormous pressure to stay at home. Which he did.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Bill Buntin was a year ahead of Russell and Darden at Michigan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    The Bill Bunting I’m familiar with played for Carolina.
    That “g” on the end makes the difference.
    Bob Green

  11. #11
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    Buntin tragically died of a heart attack at age 26 either during or immediately after a pick-up game. Accounts differ.

  12. #12
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    Two personal notes on the Bill Bradley story: the Duke-Michigan game in 1964 was my first college basketball game in the Indoor Stadium (yes, it wasn't Cameron yet). The noise level at that game was the highest I had ever experienced up to that time and it still hasn't been surpassed for me all these years later. That game hooked me on college basketball. Flash forward to the early 1980s. I coached several kids' basketball teams in the Bethesda, Maryland area. Bill Bradley was a Senator at the time, living in Bethesda. His daughter's team had the time slot right after my team (at Tilden for you DC area folks) and he would come in early to wait for her team to get the floor. I, of course, was in awe - my players had no idea who he was. Boy, did I feel old and that was forty years ago. I can only wish that I felt forty years younger.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by szstark View Post
    Two personal notes on the Bill Bradley story: the Duke-Michigan game in 1964 was my first college basketball game in the Indoor Stadium (yes, it wasn't Cameron yet). The noise level at that game was the highest I had ever experienced up to that time and it still hasn't been surpassed for me all these years later. That game hooked me on college basketball. Flash forward to the early 1980s. I coached several kids' basketball teams in the Bethesda, Maryland area. Bill Bradley was a Senator at the time, living in Bethesda. His daughter's team had the time slot right after my team (at Tilden for you DC area folks) and he would come in early to wait for her team to get the floor. I, of course, was in awe - my players had no idea who he was. Boy, did I feel old and that was forty years ago. I can only wish that I felt forty years younger.
    Were you in attendance when Duke hosted Michigan on December 5, 1964? People who were compared the crowd noise to being under a 747 taking off. Bubas always said this was the loudest he ever heard the Duke Indoor Stadium.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Were you in attendance when Duke hosted Michigan on December 5, 1964? People who were compared the crowd noise to being under a 747 taking off. Bubas always said this was the loudest he ever heard the Duke Indoor Stadium.
    Yes, I was there. It was December of my freshman year. It was the first and last time I ever experienced “deafening noise” - my hearing literally shut down. The crowd was that loud.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by szstark View Post
    Yes, I was there. It was December of my freshman year. It was the first and last time I ever experienced “deafening noise” - my hearing literally shut down. The crowd was that loud.
    Ten year old Chris Hoke was also there with my dad. The chants of DEFENSE, clap clap DEFENSE, stomp somp DEFENSE... were so loud they were scary.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Were you in attendance when Duke hosted Michigan on December 5, 1964? People who were compared the crowd noise to being under a 747 taking off. Bubas always said this was the loudest he ever heard the Duke Indoor Stadium.
    Loudest I ever heard Cameron was against the Twerps in 1973, when we unexpectedly beat a vastly superior team (the Gary Melchionni game) and 1976 when we beat them again (after losing every close game in Cameron since 1973). Four years of frustration was released that day! Jim Sumner, were you there for those games?
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    https://ecogreen.greentechaffiliate.com

  17. #17
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    Sarasota, Florida
    Thanks to Bob and Jim for correcting my increasingly fallible memory. Actually, the Buntin/Bunting mistake was a typo. Remember Bill Bunting very well from the first time he played at Duke. That uncch team also had Rusty Clark who was close to seven feet, Dick Grubar, and Bill Bunting - all fine players - to join Bobby Lewis, who was excellent. The beginning of Dean's ascendancy. i sure mis-remembered about the Michigan Buntin, though. Would have bet, and lost, money that he was the same class as Oliver Darden and Cazzie Russell.
    Question: Why is Jim "Turtledove" Sumner?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    Loudest I ever heard Cameron was against the Twerps in 1973, when we unexpectedly beat a vastly superior team (the Gary Melchionni game) and 1976 when we beat them again (after losing every close game in Cameron since 1973). Four years of frustration was released that day! Jim Sumner, were you there for those games?
    You clearly were not at the 3OT Freddy Lynn win over uncheat.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tappan Zee Devil View Post
    You clearly were not at the 3OT Freddy Lynn win over uncheat.
    I was at the Fred Lind game. You are right - it was loud, but not as loud as the 1964 Michigan game.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by szstark View Post
    I was at the Fred Lind game. You are right - it was loud, but not as loud as the 1964 Michigan game.
    I was at both and I agree.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

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