2019 FIBA World Cup Thread

[Troublemaker]

The only thing Pop did wrong was possibly not recruiting better(this is where K has a huge advantage). I mean Harrison Barnes was a significant contributor to this team so it was clearly a C or D team at best. Plus you had Tatum and Smart being injured or recently recovered. While I agree some will knock Pop for this performance, I’m not sure K does much better with the same personnel...

I like this post and very much agree. I do not think Coach K is a great in-game coach. I think there are a lot of NBA coaches who are much better, Pop included.

Where Coach K is phenomenal is recruiting and preparation. And I truly believe he would have brought in some better talent. You don't need a team full of Lebrons, Davises, and Leonards, but your best 3 players cannot be Walker, Mitchell, and Barnes. Maybe Colangelo and Pop were optimistic they would get at least a couple of superstars and when it turned out that wasn't going to happen, it was too little too late on the recruiting side.

I think Coach K would've won gold with this roster; at worst, he loses one game and medals. When I have some time, I'll go into detail with links and stuff as to why Coach K's system and high-level strategic choices were perfect for FIBA and how Pop deviated. A lot of it just comes down to how a great marathon runner might not be a great sprinter and vice versa. Prepping a FIBA team is a sprint, and strategic choices have to be made based on the limited time available to bring a team together.

FDD - are you ready to pay up on the case of beer, or do you go down as a welcher?

[ChillinDuke]

It’s not a coaching failure in any way whatsoever. The vast majority of NBA players — from what I’ve gathered — consider these games to be nothing more than glorified exhibitions. And how much time has this particular roster been playing together and coached by Popovich? Most junior high squads have more continuity and practice time together during a few weeks of summer than this Team USA roster has had in total.

A USA National Team roster that has, just to name a few, Joe Harris, Mason Plumlee, Brook Lopez, Marcus Smart, and Derrick White is a joke. Those are average NBA players at best. To call this roster mediocre in comparison to the rosters Coach K has would be a massive understatement. I say again, these recent losses by Team USA say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Gregg Popovich as a coach.

I think this view deep down comes from a place of fairness but is totally overstated. You are right that Gregg Popovich is an outstanding coach, a Hall of Famer, with a shopping list of accomplishments. But to say that the failure of Team USA, the program that Gregg Popovich himself accepted the coaching responsibility for, a high honor to be sure, says "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" about Gregg Popovich strikes me as crazy talk. It might not say much. But it says something.

Now Pop has plenty of time to write a better ending to this story, this chapter in the Book of Pop. But to say this means absolutely nothing is silly.

He's the coach. He's the recruiter. He's the head. He's the flagbearer. It's his job. And he accepted it as such. It doesn't just not matter on his coaching legacy. It may matter less with some context, but it doesn't just get erased from society's memory.

I feel pretty confident Pop himself would agree.

- Chillin

[proelitedota]

Going forward we need to rethink the relationship between the NBA and the national team. It's clear that players are less and less inclined to sacrifice their time and potentially health to maintain help maintain a dominance in international competition. I think the more immediate change we can do is add one or two college coaches from top schools to the coaching staff, especially ones that had international experience. Second is we might look at sending a NBA team instead of a new team of players. If Pop was coaching the Spurs they would have medaled easily.

[Steven43]

I think this view deep down comes from a place of fairness but is totally overstated. You are right that Gregg Popovich is an outstanding coach, a Hall of Famer, with a shopping list of accomplishments. But to say that the failure of Team USA, the program that Gregg Popovich himself accepted the coaching responsibility for, a high honor to be sure, says "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" about Gregg Popovich strikes me as crazy talk. It might not say much. But it says something.

Now Pop has plenty of time to write a better ending to this story, this chapter in the Book of Pop. But to say this means absolutely nothing is silly.

He's the coach. He's the recruiter. He's the head. He's the flagbearer. It's his job. And he accepted it as such. It doesn't just not matter on his coaching legacy. It may matter less with some context, but it doesn't just get erased from society's memory.

I feel pretty confident Pop himself would agree.

- Chillin

“Crazy talk” you say? No, It’s anything but.

If these losses in basically meaningless games say “something” about Gregg Popovich as a coach, as you allege, what exactly do they say? Pray tell.

Do you think Coach K — or any other basketball coach — thinks less of Gregg Popovich as a coach now? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. In fact, I would bet a year’s salary that every single good basketball coach in this country understands quite well that these Team USA losses were not a Gregg Popovich-coaching issue.

[ChillinDuke]

Crazy talk? It’s anything but.

If these losses in basically meaningless games says “something” about Gregg Popovich as a coach, as you allege, what does it say? Pray tell.

Do you think Coach K — or any other basketball coach — thinks less of Gregg Popovich as a coach now? I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

It says he failed in an international basketball tournament where others before him succeeded.

It says he failed to recruit the best players from our nation, in no small part because he failed to make our best players feel like these games were anything but "meaningless".

It says he couldn't keep a program atop the podium as "World's Best", where he had just inherited it .

To name a few.

And no, I doubt Coach K thinks less of Gregg Popovich as a coach. Certainly not as a person. Doubtfully as a coach as well. But if I'm right, then that may say more about Coach K as a person than it does about Gregg Popovich as a coach.

I think, from a purely coaching standpoint and removing any other noise, if anyone in that profession thinks of Gregg Popovich as strong as a coach today as they did a month ago, then I'm not sure they're being honest. These guys are hyper competitive. Losing is losing, and they know that. Losing isn't winning. Context helps. But at the end of the day, these guys chose a profession that ends with a scoreboard. And they are judged on that.

- Chillin

[rtnorthrup]

Here is what I don't get, Colangelo supposedly put into place certain requirements to make sure that what happened this summer wouldnt happen again. Coaches and Players had to commit to a full international cycle (2 or 4 years), as did the coaches. It seemed for a while that everyone bought into the idea that playing for the National Team was an honor, and was an important aspect of their career. This summer as player after player backed out, I couldn't figure out what was going on. I get that this is the FIBA tournament, and at least from the US perspective, less important than the Olympics, but still. Why weren't NBA coaches encouraging their players to play this summer? I know that there are some injury issues, and some players like Lebron are probably past it in age, but there is group of really exciting younger players that absolutely should be held accountable for not committing to this process. And why didn't the media put more social pressure on these guys to be a part of the process?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Here is what I don't get, Colangelo supposedly put into place certain requirements to make sure that what happened this summer wouldnt happen again. Coaches and Players had to commit to a full international cycle (2 or 4 years), as did the coaches. It seemed for a while that everyone bought into the idea that playing for the National Team was an honor, and was an important aspect of their career. This summer as player after player backed out, I couldn't figure out what was going on. I get that this is the FIBA tournament, and at least from the US perspective, less important than the Olympics, but still. Why weren't NBA coaches encouraging their players to play this summer? I know that there are some injury issues, and some players like Lebron are probably past it in age, but there is group of really exciting younger players that absolutely should be held accountable for not committing to this process. And why didn't the media put more social pressure on these guys to be a part of the process?

Because Paul George is still fresh in their mind. Because they don't want their players fatigued to start the season.

If I'm an NBA coach, I would hate for my best players to play in international competition. Can they get better and learn a thing or to? Sure. But I'm not sure that outweighs the risk/rest factor.

Look at Messi and Barcelona. He played in the Copa America this past summer with Argentina. A few weeks later, in his first training session with Barcelona, he gets injured and has now missed the first ~4 games of the season and likely more.

[Stray Gator]

“Crazy talk” you say? No, It’s anything but.

If these losses in basically meaningless games say “something” about Gregg Popovich as a coach, as you allege, what exactly do they say? Pray tell.

Do you think Coach K — or any other basketball coach — thinks less of Gregg Popovich as a coach now? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. In fact, I would bet a year’s salary that every single good basketball coach in this country understands quite well that these Team USA losses were not a Gregg Popovich-coaching issue.

It's certainly your right to regard these games as "basically meaningless," and to dismiss the losses by this USA team as no reflection whatsoever on the coaching ability of Gregg Popovich. But I believe you ought to show more respect for the right of others to form a different opinion. From my perspective, the fact that this team lost several games to less talented teams is, at least to some degree, attributable to deficiencies for which the head coach can and should properly be held responsible. And I suspect strongly that many perfectly reasonable and knowledgeable people who inhabit the "basketball world," including some coaches, will agree.

Perhaps most importantly, however, if these players who were representing the USA shared your view that the games were "basically meaningless" -- and I'm not saying that any of them did -- that to me would be a serious failure on the part of Popovich. Whatever criticism may at times have been directed towards Coach K during his tenure as head coach of Team USA, no one could ever accuse him of letting his players shrug off the importance of any game in which they were representing their country.

[rtnorthrup]

Because Paul George is still fresh in their mind. Because they don't want their players fatigued to start the season.

If I'm an NBA coach, I would hate for my best players to play in international competition. Can they get better and learn a thing or to? Sure. But I'm not sure that outweighs the risk/rest factor.

Look at Messi and Barcelona. He played in the Copa America this past summer with Argentina. A few weeks later, in his first training session with Barcelona, he gets injured and has now missed the first ~4 games of the season and likely more.

Except that I thought general wisdom was that most NBA players came back from international ball and had career years the following year. And I thought that everyone understood that George was a freak accident and that there is little proof that players who played FIBA/Olympics got injured the following NBA season.

I guess I just assumed that this FIBA tournament would the first year of a new Team USA cycle. I thought if you wanted to play in the next Olympics you had to play this summer. Guess they have already abandoned those rules.

[dukelifer]

I like this post and very much agree. I do not think Coach K is a great in-game coach. I think there are a lot of NBA coaches who are much better, Pop included.

Where Coach K is phenomenal is recruiting and preparation. And I truly believe he would have brought in some better talent. You don't need a team full of Lebrons, Davises, and Leonards, but your best 3 players cannot be Walker, Mitchell, and Barnes. Maybe Colangelo and Pop were optimistic they would get at least a couple of superstars and when it turned out that wasn't going to happen, it was too little too late on the recruiting side.

I blame Barnes- why not. He is one the most experienced players- an NBA champion and he did not perform like one. Not even close. Mitchell is a baby, Tatum is a baby, and several of the other players are role players on their own teams. No question this team was solid- but certainly not good enough shooters to win in the international game. I am always amazed to see how much worse NBA players look when they play international rules. This team probably only needed a legit bit man and a long Klay Thompson type wing who can knock down shots in an instant. This is a big hit on USA basketball. But they will bounce back. The stars will come out for the next one.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I blame Barnes- why not. He is one the most experienced players- an NBA champion and he did not perform like one. Not even close. Mitchell is a baby, Tatum is a baby, and several of the other players are role players on their own teams. No question this team was solid- but certainly not good enough shooters to win in the international game. I am always amazed to see how much worse NBA players look when they play international rules. This team probably only needed a legit bit man and a long Klay Thompson type wing who can knock down shots in an instant. This is a big hit on USA basketball. But they will bounce back. The stars will come out for the next one.

Really? There is a lot of blame to go around, and I don't put any on Barnes. Yes, he's a veteran. But he has never been an All-Star. His ceiling is nowhere near ~50% of the team.

I've never liked Barnes, but he was one of the very, very few positives on Team USA.

[dukelifer]

Really? There is a lot of blame to go around, and I don't put any on Barnes. Yes, he's a veteran. But he has never been an All-Star. His ceiling is nowhere near ~50% of the team.

I've never liked Barnes, but he was one of the very, very few positives on Team USA.

I was trying to be funny by taking a pot shot at our UNC rival and the player who did not come to Duke. But clearly that did not come across.

[Steven43]

It says he failed in an international basketball tournament where others before him succeeded.

It says he failed to recruit the best players from our nation, in no small part because he failed to make our best players feel like these games were anything but "meaningless".

It says he couldn't keep a program atop the podium as "World's Best", where he had just inherited it .

To name a few.

And no, I doubt Coach K thinks less of Gregg Popovich as a coach. Certainly not as a person. Doubtfully as a coach as well. But if I'm right, then that may say more about Coach K as a person than it does about Gregg Popovich as a coach.

I think, from a purely coaching standpoint and removing any other noise, if anyone in that profession thinks of Gregg Popovich as strong as a coach today as they did a month ago, then I'm not sure they're being honest. These guys are hyper competitive. Losing is losing, and they know that. Losing isn't winning. Context helps. But at the end of the day, these guys chose a profession that ends with a scoreboard. And they are judged on that.

- Chillin

I don’t see anything of substance here. You’re just looking for an excuse to knock Popovich for some strange reason. He was one of the greatest coaches of all time before he started coaching Team USA in these games that most basketball fans don’t give much credence to whatsoever — hardly any basketball fans even watch the games, much less care — and he still retains that exact same rarified coaching status afterwards. It changes exactly nothing.

Did Coach K’s humiliating upset losses to Lehigh in 2012 and Mercer in 2014 lessen his coaching legacy in your eyes? Vaunted juggernaut Lehigh went on to lose their very next game by 12 points. Mighty Mercer went on to lose their next game by 20 points. These were not good teams that beat Duke. The 2011-2012 Duke team had at least 7 or 8 players who spent time on an NBA roster. The 2013-2014 team had a similar number of NBA players. And Coach K had been coaching these two Duke rosters for an entire season at the time his teams suffered their crushing upset losses. Popovich had his Team USA roster for virtually no time at all in comparison. And coaches, players, and fans take NCAA tournament games FAAAAR more seriously than Team USA games. So what do you say now, Chillin?

[flyingdutchdevil]

I was trying to be funny by taking a pot shot at our UNC rival and the player who did not come to Duke. But clearly that did not come across.

Gotta add that smiley face. That went way over my head

[dudog84]

“Crazy talk” you say? No, It’s anything but.

If these losses in basically meaningless games say “something” about Gregg Popovich as a coach, as you allege, what exactly do they say? Pray tell.

Do you think Coach K — or any other basketball coach — thinks less of Gregg Popovich as a coach now? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. In fact, I would bet a year’s salary that every single good basketball coach in this country understands quite well that these Team USA losses were not a Gregg Popovich-coaching issue.

Well, I'd really have to know what your salary is before I make that bet.

But I probably would.

[dukelifer]

I don’t see anything of substance here. You’re just looking for an excuse to knock Popovich for some strange reason. He was one of the greatest coaches of all time before he started coaching Team USA in these games that most basketball fans don’t give much credence to whatsoever — hardly any basketball fans even watch the games, much less care — and he still retains that exact same rarified coaching status afterwards. It changes exactly nothing.

Did Coach K’s humiliating upset losses to Lehigh in 2012 and Mercer in 2014 lessen his coaching legacy in your eyes? Vaunted juggernaut Lehigh went on to lose their very next game by 12 points. Mighty Mercer went on to lose their next game by 20 points. These were not good teams that beat Duke. The 2011-2012 Duke team had at least 7 or 8 players who spent time on an NBA roster. The 2013-2014 team had a similar number of NBA players. And Coach K had been coaching these two Duke rosters for an entire season at the time his teams suffered their crushing upset losses. Popovich had his Team USA roster for virtually no time at all in comparison. And coaches, players, and fans take NCAA tournament games FAAAAR more seriously than Team USA games. So what do you say now, Chillin?

I agree - this is basketball. Sometimes teams take time to gel. This team did not have enough time to do that given their talent and injuries. Everyone thinks basketball is just throwing 5 guys together. It is more than that. Yes- three of the four Celtics played together- but one was hurt and one is a sub. The other, Walker, has never played with those guys. This team on paper could have won it- but they were not much better than the rest of the field- given the limited time together as a team. It does not mean USA basketball is broken - but it does show the rest of the world- who field teams with NBA talent is not far behind. Pop is a great coach but he did not do well in this format. Maybe K is better with new teams and much better talent. I am not sure who would have won with this bunch. Maybe if Tatum had played more - who knows.

[dukelifer]

Gotta add that smiley face. That went way over my head

Noted.

[Steven43]

Well, I'd really have to know what your salary is before I make that bet.

But I probably would.

I didn’t say I’d bet MY salary!! 😃

[dudog84]

I didn’t say I’d bet MY salary!! 😃

Always easier when you're playing with someone else's money.

[pfrduke]

Because Paul George is still fresh in their mind. Because they don't want their players fatigued to start the season.

If I'm an NBA coach, I would hate for my best players to play in international competition. Can they get better and learn a thing or to? Sure. But I'm not sure that outweighs the risk/rest factor.

Look at Messi and Barcelona. He played in the Copa America this past summer with Argentina. A few weeks later, in his first training session with Barcelona, he gets injured and has now missed the first ~4 games of the season and likely more.

I mentioned this upthread, too, but the FIBA calendar change I believe really had an impact. It's easier to get people to sign up when the summer tournaments aren't back-to-back. For players with their sights on the Olympics, doing the full 2018-19 NBA season, plus playoffs, plus FIBA, plus 2019-20 season, plus playoffs, plus Olympics, plus 2020-21 season, plus playoffs without a summer off is a huge workload, and cutting the 2019 FIBA out of that is the easiest one to do. Having a year with no international tournament between the FIBA and Olympics was a much better schedule from a participation perspective.