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  1. #41
    As much momentum and good will that US Soccer has been building, yesterday's match versus Honduras was a punch in the gut.

    The lousy goal given up by Ochoa will haunt him. Yueill's goal followed by continued pressure by the US was exciting. I know Jonathan Lewis wishes he could have another shot the cross from Tessman again. Really disappointing the US won't be participating this summer in the Olympics, but the real goal is World Cup qualification this fall. Excited to see how the senior team gels over the summer and how they fare against some better competition.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside6 View Post
    As much momentum and good will that US Soccer has been building, yesterday's match versus Honduras was a punch in the gut.

    The lousy goal given up by Ochoa will haunt him. Yueill's goal followed by continued pressure by the US was exciting. I know Jonathan Lewis wishes he could have another shot the cross from Tessman again. Really disappointing the US won't be participating this summer in the Olympics, but the real goal is World Cup qualification this fall. Excited to see how the senior team gels over the summer and how they fare against some better competition.
    Yeah, one of the downsides of having a group of youngsters materialize as senior team players is that the U-23 team suffers. If several of Reyna, McKennie, Adams, Sargent, Pulisic, Richards, Musah, Reynolds, Dest, De La Torre, Weah, Aaronson, Otasowie, and Dike are playing for the U-23 team instead of the senior team, we probably make the Olympics. Instead, those guys are prepping for hopeful roles in the World Cup qualifying.

    It's disappointing that we again won't be represented at the Olympics, but the silver lining is that the Men's National Team looks in much better shape at the expense of our U-23 side.

    Hopefully we get to a point where the depth is sufficient to have a strong national team AND a strong U-23 side, but we're obviously not there yet.

  3. #43
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    Olympics

    The next ~20 months are gonna be fun for soccer! But the Olympics isn't one of them. Actually, let me clarify: no one who enjoys international soccer enjoys soccer in the Olympics. The small number of teams, the strange amateur/professional rules, the age limitations... they are all really, really stupid. Success in the Olympics isn't indicative of success in the World Cup or the regional tournaments (Euro Cup, Gold Cup, etc).

    So do not fret, the Olympics and soccer are about as meaningful as Duke and the NIT.

    I'm excited about the next 20 months. I'll be doing plenty of write ups about the Euro Cup and the World Cup. The US is looking good, but they have such a long way to go. The wingers and full backs are looking really promising.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    The next ~20 months are gonna be fun for soccer! But the Olympics isn't one of them. Actually, let me clarify: no one who enjoys international soccer enjoys soccer in the Olympics. The small number of teams, the strange amateur/professional rules, the age limitations... they are all really, really stupid. Success in the Olympics isn't indicative of success in the World Cup or the regional tournaments (Euro Cup, Gold Cup, etc).

    So do not fret, the Olympics and soccer are about as meaningful as Duke and the NIT.

    I'm excited about the next 20 months. I'll be doing plenty of write ups about the Euro Cup and the World Cup. The US is looking good, but they have such a long way to go. The wingers and full backs are looking really promising.
    Agreed on the Olympics.

    As for the US side, I mostly agree, but I think the team is looking pretty promising at almost every position but striker. McKennie and Adams are doing really well at defensive midfield at UCL level squads; Reyna is doing pretty well as an attacking midfielder; Aaronson looks promising as an attacking midfielder as well; we've generally had good center backs (Brooks is a mainstay now that he's healthy; Miazga and Richards are looking better in European sides as well). And of course Steffen is a strong option at keeper, though he's finding consistent playing time hard at Man City. The fullbacks are looking really promising with Dest, Robinson, and Cannon. The wingers have had a mixed bag (Pulisic's season has been rough, but of course he is a super talent; Weah is getting more time at Lille now; Reyna can certainly play winger even if his natural position is attacking midfielder) but with lots of promise.

    If the US doesn't qualify this time around, it will be an absolute shock. The emergence of US talent overseas, and even on some of the best teams in Europe, is astounding. If healthy, we can field a side that should not be threatened by CONCACAF. Having key players on Barca, Juve, Dortmund, and Chelsea is a crazy time for US soccer.

    Hopefully one of our strikers can emerge. Sargent and Dike seem the most likely bets aside from the milquetoast option of Altidore, but nobody has really distinguished himself there yet.

  5. #45
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    I didn't realize that Duke alum Jason Kreis is the coach of the Olympic team. He really threw the team under the bus.

    "We have players that aren't moving. We have people on the ball that aren't committing defenders to make decisions, to open up spaces. We have guys that look like they're just don't really want the ball, and so it just kind of goes back to a mostly mentality for me."

    https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-s...dy-jason-kreis

  6. #46
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    Can someone remind me why we have the U-23 team doing the Olympic qualifying while the USMNT is playing a friendly against Northern Ireland? Too much schedule conflict between World Cup and Olympic qualifiers?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Can someone remind me why we have the U-23 team doing the Olympic qualifying while the USMNT is playing a friendly against Northern Ireland? Too much schedule conflict between World Cup and Olympic qualifiers?
    The Olympics and Olympic qualifying are all done by the U-23 teams across the world, by rule. That's just the way it is done. Hence the Dutchman's point that nobody internationally cares about Olympic soccer.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Agreed on the Olympics.

    As for the US side, I mostly agree, but I think the team is looking pretty promising at almost every position but striker. McKennie and Adams are doing really well at defensive midfield at UCL level squads; Reyna is doing pretty well as an attacking midfielder; Aaronson looks promising as an attacking midfielder as well; we've generally had good center backs (Brooks is a mainstay now that he's healthy; Miazga and Richards are looking better in European sides as well). And of course Steffen is a strong option at keeper, though he's finding consistent playing time hard at Man City. The fullbacks are looking really promising with Dest, Robinson, and Cannon. The wingers have had a mixed bag (Pulisic's season has been rough, but of course he is a super talent; Weah is getting more time at Lille now; Reyna can certainly play winger even if his natural position is attacking midfielder) but with lots of promise.

    If the US doesn't qualify this time around, it will be an absolute shock. The emergence of US talent overseas, and even on some of the best teams in Europe, is astounding. If healthy, we can field a side that should not be threatened by CONCACAF. Having key players on Barca, Juve, Dortmund, and Chelsea is a crazy time for US soccer.

    Hopefully one of our strikers can emerge. Sargent and Dike seem the most likely bets aside from the milquetoast option of Altidore, but nobody has really distinguished himself there yet.
    You are optimistic about US soccer, but that's understandable. I'm optimistic about Dutch soccer, even though we are a shell of ourselves and our coach makes Bruce Arena look semi-competent.

    I see the US as a "established" players who will help the US moving forward and... everyone else.

    Established Players
    Pulisic: The gem of the US team. Had a great stint at Dortmund and a weirdly first great season in the Premier League. Has struggled with injuries. Tuchel doesn't like Pulisic, and that is a problem moving forward. But he's a really good player and arguably the US player with the most potential ever (not including goal keepers). Pulisic has a "European" mindset, which is to score, score, score. It's wonderful.
    McKennie: Also love this dude. He fits right into Juventus. And he doesn't stop moving (Coach K would love his "motor"). But the truth is he's not very skilled. He cannot facilitate. He cannot shoot from range. He isn't a great dribbler. He needs facilitators around him. And that's a key position the US is missing.
    Dest: So angry this kid committed to the US over his true home: the Netherlands. Sigh... anywho, Dest is a modern full back: all offense and no defense. He can pass, he can dribble, and he can score. He's not Trent Arnold Alexander, but he's a really solid full back. And he's 20 years old starting for Barcelona. Wow.
    Reyna: Young, smart, scores, pass, high IQ... he has a chance to be the greatest US soccer player ever. Lots of room for growth, super young, players for a great organization... he'll be playing for a "Blue Blood" in a couple of years
    Brooks: Serviceable big man who is European trained. Can score on set pieces so a really nice scoring option. But not great with his feet. Also, he's 28, so by the time the 2026 WC rolls around (which is where I think the US can do damage), he'll be irrelevant.
    Tyler: Developed nicely at RB Leipzig. Can't score nor playmake but a wonderful, true defensive midfielder (more defensive than McKennie).

    I do not see anything special in Sargeant (his goal scoring rates are poor), Aaronson, Miazga (not a good sign when you're 25 and continue to be loaned out), Richards (not doing great at Hoffenheim), Steffen (he'll never play at Man City. Ederson is too good), or anyone else

    The US has attacking wings, defensive mids, and full backs. Outside of that, the cupboard is too young or doesn't exist. The good news? There is time. The better news? With the players outlined above, the US will go to Qatar. But they won't do well.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The Olympics and Olympic qualifying are all done by the U-23 teams across the world, by rule. That's just the way it is done. Hence the Dutchman's point that nobody internationally cares about Olympic soccer.
    Thanks!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    You are optimistic about US soccer, but that's understandable. I'm optimistic about Dutch soccer, even though we are a shell of ourselves and our coach makes Bruce Arena look semi-competent.

    I see the US as a "established" players who will help the US moving forward and... everyone else.

    Established Players
    Pulisic: The gem of the US team. Had a great stint at Dortmund and a weirdly first great season in the Premier League. Has struggled with injuries. Tuchel doesn't like Pulisic, and that is a problem moving forward. But he's a really good player and arguably the US player with the most potential ever (not including goal keepers). Pulisic has a "European" mindset, which is to score, score, score. It's wonderful.
    McKennie: Also love this dude. He fits right into Juventus. And he doesn't stop moving (Coach K would love his "motor"). But the truth is he's not very skilled. He cannot facilitate. He cannot shoot from range. He isn't a great dribbler. He needs facilitators around him. And that's a key position the US is missing.
    Dest: So angry this kid committed to the US over his true home: the Netherlands. Sigh... anywho, Dest is a modern full back: all offense and no defense. He can pass, he can dribble, and he can score. He's not Trent Arnold Alexander, but he's a really solid full back. And he's 20 years old starting for Barcelona. Wow.
    Reyna: Young, smart, scores, pass, high IQ... he has a chance to be the greatest US soccer player ever. Lots of room for growth, super young, players for a great organization... he'll be playing for a "Blue Blood" in a couple of years
    Brooks: Serviceable big man who is European trained. Can score on set pieces so a really nice scoring option. But not great with his feet. Also, he's 28, so by the time the 2026 WC rolls around (which is where I think the US can do damage), he'll be irrelevant.
    Tyler: Developed nicely at RB Leipzig. Can't score nor playmake but a wonderful, true defensive midfielder (more defensive than McKennie).

    I do not see anything special in Sargeant (his goal scoring rates are poor), Aaronson, Miazga (not a good sign when you're 25 and continue to be loaned out), Richards (not doing great at Hoffenheim), Steffen (he'll never play at Man City. Ederson is too good), or anyone else

    The US has attacking wings, defensive mids, and full backs. Outside of that, the cupboard is too young or doesn't exist. The good news? There is time. The better news? With the players outlined above, the US will go to Qatar. But they won't do well.
    I thought we were talking about the next 20 months, not 2026. If 2026, then it's a bit of "who knows?" on some of these guys. Central defenders aren't typically ready at age 20, so it shouldn't surprise that we don't yet know who will be relevant for 2026.

    As for the current squad, my differences of opinion are as follows:

    Steffen: no, he's not going to supplant arguably the best in the world on one of the very best teams in the world. But he's obviously of starter quality for most Euro squads. He just has the current misfortune of being the #2 for a team at the top of the food chain. Hopefully he gets loaned out next year to another Premier League side.

    Brooks: he's the centerpiece of one of the best defensive sides in the Bundesliga. I'd say that's better than "serviceable." He's very very good, and will still be very very good by 2022. But yes, he hopefully won't be there in 2026. Hopefully some of the younger players develop over the next 5 years.

    Richards: A 21 year old who got some (albeit limited) playing time for Bayern Munich? Yeah, I'll take that. I'd expect him to continue to be loaned out over the next 20 months, but I think he'll be pretty darn good.

    McKennie: he does a little of everything but isn't polished at anything. Which, given his work rate, is why I see him as a defensive or box-to-box midfielder for the national team. He's a bit more offensive minded than Adams, but he can grind. And that's where Reyna and (hopefully) Aaronson are key: they are the more creative players.

    Reyna: totally agree. His development is potentially the difference between us topping out where we topped out in the Donovan/Dempsey era or becoming more of a contender. He's got all the tools, it's a matter of time to mature and opportunity. It will be interesting to see where he goes next, assuming Dortmund will sell as they did with Pulisic and are likely to do with Haaland.

    Adams: a classic defensive midfielder, and I feel quite good about him over the next two WC campaigns.

    Miazga: Being owned by Chelsea has not done him a ton of favors in terms of stability, as he's not nearly of Chelsea quality. But I'd consider him serviceable for 2022. I do hope that by 2026 he's not in the picture. But again, with central defenders its often hard to tell who will be relevant 5 years from now.

    As for the team as a whole, I don't expect them to do damage in the 2022 World Cup. I just expect them to make it, and they should do so fairly easily. Maybe they get through the group stage if they get a favorable draw. But I certainly don't see them as a threat for a deep run in 2022 barring some things going really well over the next 20 months.

    If we're talking about 2026? It's hard to say, as some of our best prospects beyond the guys above are still so young and just scratching the surface. Do guys like Aaronson, De La Torre, Musah, Weah, Reynolds, De La Fuente, Llanez, etc. emerge? Do any of the age 20-22 strikers (Dike, Sargent, Soto, Gioacchini, Hoppe) make a jump in play and establish themselves in Europe? And do any current 15 or 16 year olds emerge in the next couple of years as prodigies like Reyna and Pulisic have?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I thought we were talking about the next 20 months, not 2026. If 2026, then it's a bit of "who knows?" on some of these guys. Central defenders aren't typically ready at age 20, so it shouldn't surprise that we don't yet know who will be relevant for 2026.

    As for the current squad, my differences of opinion are as follows:

    Steffen: no, he's not going to supplant arguably the best in the world on one of the very best teams in the world. But he's obviously of starter quality for most Euro squads. He just has the current misfortune of being the #2 for a team at the top of the food chain. Hopefully he gets loaned out next year to another Premier League side.

    Brooks: he's the centerpiece of one of the best defensive sides in the Bundesliga. I'd say that's better than "serviceable." He's very very good, and will still be very very good by 2022. But yes, he hopefully won't be there in 2026. Hopefully some of the younger players develop over the next 5 years.

    Richards: A 21 year old who got some (albeit limited) playing time for Bayern Munich? Yeah, I'll take that. I'd expect him to continue to be loaned out over the next 20 months, but I think he'll be pretty darn good.

    McKennie: he does a little of everything but isn't polished at anything. Which, given his work rate, is why I see him as a defensive or box-to-box midfielder for the national team. He's a bit more offensive minded than Adams, but he can grind. And that's where Reyna and (hopefully) Aaronson are key: they are the more creative players.

    Reyna: totally agree. His development is potentially the difference between us topping out where we topped out in the Donovan/Dempsey era or becoming more of a contender. He's got all the tools, it's a matter of time to mature and opportunity. It will be interesting to see where he goes next, assuming Dortmund will sell as they did with Pulisic and are likely to do with Haaland.

    Adams: a classic defensive midfielder, and I feel quite good about him over the next two WC campaigns.

    Miazga: Being owned by Chelsea has not done him a ton of favors in terms of stability, as he's not nearly of Chelsea quality. But I'd consider him serviceable for 2022. I do hope that by 2026 he's not in the picture. But again, with central defenders its often hard to tell who will be relevant 5 years from now.

    As for the team as a whole, I don't expect them to do damage in the 2022 World Cup. I just expect them to make it, and they should do so fairly easily. Maybe they get through the group stage if they get a favorable draw. But I certainly don't see them as a threat for a deep run in 2022 barring some things going really well over the next 20 months.

    If we're talking about 2026? It's hard to say, as some of our best prospects beyond the guys above are still so young and just scratching the surface. Do guys like Aaronson, De La Torre, Musah, Weah, Reynolds, De La Fuente, Llanez, etc. emerge? Do any of the age 20-22 strikers (Dike, Sargent, Soto, Gioacchini, Hoppe) make a jump in play and establish themselves in Europe? And do any current 15 or 16 year olds emerge in the next couple of years as prodigies like Reyna and Pulisic have?
    We're in agreement with 2022. With the current (young) roster and the lack of cohesion, 2022 should be a learning experience for this team.

    An interesting comp for the US is Belgium. No, the US is nowhere near as talented. But in 2014, Belgium made it to the quarterfinals with a very talented but very young team. De Bruyne, Lukaku, Hazard, Mertens, Origi, etc were all teenagers or in their young 20s. Then, in 2018, with nearly the exact same roster, the Belgians were one of the favorites who made it to the semis and barely lost against France. And in 2022? Well, let's just say the Belgians are ranked #1 in the world.

    The US needs to take this approach. Find your young, talented team that will arguably take you to 2030 (Pulisic will only be 32 then). Get rid of the old guard now. Focus on the best line ups that highlight the best players and, most importantly, get the team comfortable and familiar with one another.

    The US cannot be like Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, or Argentina (ie teams that have constant elite talent year in, year out); they are more like the Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Uruguay, and Croatia (ie teams where talent blossoms once every 10-20 years and you ride that talent for a decade). This is, hands down, the most talented the US has ever been. Trying to find the "best" line up every game shouldn't be the goal; trying to find the best team for the next decade is what matters.

    CONCACAF qualifying is a joke. They'll make the 2022 WC. They won't get far, but that's okay. Eyes need to be on 2026 and 2030.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    The US needs to take this approach. Find your young, talented team that will arguably take you to 2030 (Pulisic will only be 32 then). Get rid of the old guard now. Focus on the best line ups that highlight the best players and, most importantly, get the team comfortable and familiar with one another.
    I agree. I'll be fairly disappointed if Altidore and Zardes are getting major run over the next 20 months, and especially if they are getting run in the World Cup. The young guys need to be given every opportunity possible, both in qualifying and in the World Cup.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I agree. I'll be fairly disappointed if Altidore and Zardes are getting major run over the next 20 months, and especially if they are getting run in the World Cup. The young guys need to be given every opportunity possible, both in qualifying and in the World Cup.
    One issue the US has that the European countries don't (and to a lesser extent, the Latin American countries) is the concept of familiarity. Due to the scouting at such young ages, the elites kids play on the national teams at a very early age. And the turnover isn't that extreme from U10 to U21. They know each other, they play together, they get so much exposure to one another (of course, this could easily backfire. There is more infighting on European national teams than

    With the US, I assume it's different. Kids (or their parents) prioritize school, prioritize local training over national training, and really only get exposed to other elite national talent in high school. This, to me, gives the Europeans such an advantage. You cannot discount that familiarity, especially in soccer.

    I have no idea if Pulisic has ever played with McKennie, for instance. I'd hope so, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is 'not yet'.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    One issue the US has that the European countries don't (and to a lesser extent, the Latin American countries) is the concept of familiarity. Due to the scouting at such young ages, the elites kids play on the national teams at a very early age. And the turnover isn't that extreme from U10 to U21. They know each other, they play together, they get so much exposure to one another (of course, this could easily backfire. There is more infighting on European national teams than

    With the US, I assume it's different. Kids (or their parents) prioritize school, prioritize local training over national training, and really only get exposed to other elite national talent in high school. This, to me, gives the Europeans such an advantage. You cannot discount that familiarity, especially in soccer.

    I have no idea if Pulisic has ever played with McKennie, for instance. I'd hope so, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is 'not yet'.
    Yeah, the US is way behind in terms of soccer academies and national team development. Some of that is societal (the reasons you mentioned, plus much less national devotion to soccer as sport #1 to commit your kid to it early), some of it is geographical (much easier to consolidate talent in a country the size Belgium or the Netherlands than a country the size of Europe). They are trying to build the soccer academy concept here, but even still it's an uphill climb and we still face the societal/geographic hurdles in consolidating the talent.

    I'd guess that Pulisic and McKennie have played together only a handful of times with the USMNT, and that's it.

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    Mexico - Honduras is a good final match right now. Both well above us.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The Olympics and Olympic qualifying are all done by the U-23 teams across the world, by rule. That's just the way it is done. Hence the Dutchman's point that nobody internationally cares about Olympic soccer.
    One clarification: because of COVID restrictions, club commitments and timing, some U23-eligible European-based players like Reyna and Pulisic were unable to secure release to leave Europe for the Olympic qualifying matches. There were even some noises that certain players wouldn’t be able to play the Northern Ireland friendly before things worked out. (That’s also part of the reason players like Weston McKennie and Tyler Adams didn’t play in any of the matches, though both have injury knocks that no doubt played into it as well.) I have no idea whether eligible players would have suited up for the U23 team under different circumstances.

    That’s still no excuse. There’s zero reason why the US shouldn’t have the depth to field an U23 squad that qualifies for the Olympics, and they’ve now missed the last three in a row.

    Remember that after missing qualification for the last WC, the biggest changes that US Soccer made were to promote their VP to President and to hire the brother of one of their executives as head coach of the national team (after a very opaque coaching search). US Soccer has managed to recruit excellent dual-nationals like Dest and Yunus Musah to improve the player pool, and is fortunate that there are some talented US players playing high-level soccer in Europe. Those developments improve the US team’s odds of making more of a splash in 2022. But to me, the failure to qualify for the Olympics is a stark reminder that US Soccer is still a poorly run organization that squanders opportunities, and whenever they fail, they pretty much just shrug and stay the course.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jafarr1 View Post
    That’s still no excuse. There’s zero reason why the US shouldn’t have the depth to field an U23 squad that qualifies for the Olympics, and they’ve now missed the last three in a row.
    Qualifying for the Olympics is definitely not a terribly high bar. The US should be qualifying basically every time.

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    Probably not the right place, but — that Atlanta United CONCACAF Champion’s League match with Alajuelense was incredibly entertaining.

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