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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY

    MBB: Post Game Thread, Duke 68, Illinois 83

    Bad start and bad shooting put us in a 10 point hole we never really got out of. Illinois is a good team.

    I thought Roach and Steward grew tonight. They played a lot of minutes and really competed.

    Hurt and Goldwire are solid non-freshmen who are important rotation guys that we need to produce every night. Neither is a real star, but they competed tonight.

    Jalen Johnson has star potential, but he’s a typical freshman. We have had a lot of atypical freshman for the past 10 years, maybe he can evolve into that.

    Lots of work to do but I like how we fought the whole game. We didn’t roll over, we competed hard. That’s a start. Who knows what will happen this crazy year, I am happy for each game we get, and think there is a lot of upside for this squad. Obviously, we have to recalibrate expectations as a top 10 team we are not.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham

    MBB: Duke 68, Illinois 83 post-game thread

    while i'm sure some will tear me down for this, there WERE positives tonight.

    12-2 at the first timeout
    71-66 for the rest of the way

    Yeah it's still a 5 point "loss" but we largely played with a very very good team for 36 minutes tonight. We didn't let cockburn beat us (as the illinois blog guy asserted), hurt still played very well, despite his off shooting night (8-9 from 2 is EXCELLENT). Steward started to show some of the aggressiveness we saw in the first game. We weren't stupid with the turnovers, Johnson stayed out of foul trouble, and we rebounded well (84% of their missed shots, whereas they only got 73% of ours) against a team that was supposed to "dominate" us inside.

    That said, lots of, erm, room for improvement
    90 OE, 110 DE (raw). both terrible numbers.

    At times we forgot that passing was an option on offense. There was a bit of black hole from each of the freshmen at times. Johnson has not shown the same potency he showed in the opening game.


    The ACC is really bad this year, so it seems, so fortunately, there are few teams of that caliber left on our schedule.

    Enjoy the ride.
    1200. DDMF.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Chicago

    We

    Have a strange theme to the start of this season...a lot of guys overthinking (JJ and Wendell)...and a lot of guys doing very little thinking at times (Joey trying to drive into traffic right when we had a chance).

    Hopefully after a few more games under our belts more of our guys will just get back to playing basketball.
    Windy City Devil

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    I like the team’s never quit attitude and hustle even though they were down by 8+ points for the overwhelming majority of the game. They just simply need to hit shots and generate better flow and ball movement offensively. Nothing more to say about it.

    The last time Duke had multiple home losses this early in the calendar year was 1981-82 (Coach K's second season at Duke), when their 2nd home loss came on December 5.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    I like the team’s never quit attitude and hustle even though they were down by 8+ points for the overwhelming majority of the game. They just simply need to hit shots and generate better flow and ball movement offensively. Nothing more to say about it.

    The last time Duke had multiple home losses this early in the calendar year was 1981-82 (Coach K's second season at Duke), when their 2nd home loss came on December 5.
    TBF, in a normal season, that MSU is at a neutral site.
    1200. DDMF.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Chicago
    Would like to see four freshman around Hurt starting the next game. See if using Goldwire off the bench gives us some energy and more consistency.

    Not sure if you go Brakefield or Williams — arguments to be made for both — but that lineup seems to have the highest ceiling.

    Everything looks too fast for Wendell, mentally and physically. He’s in a pretty deep hole right now. We need him to come back from that, but against teams like Illinois, we can’t afford to let him play his way out of it. Maybe some of the game coming up.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    TBF, in a normal season, that MSU is at a neutral site.
    No doubt - good point.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    WA State
    Pretty rough game but there were a couple of bight spots. The defense is not too shabby given our relative youth.
    Roach is starting to get it - he made some nice plays scoring the ball and a couple of nice passes. We need him to continue to progress.
    Goldwire has really become a defensive nightmare. Still limited on the offensive end, but he's a net plus.
    Brakefield is a solid contributor though his defense needs some help.
    Joey had some good defensive plays.
    On the other hand, everything else.
    Can anybody hit the three with anything approaching consistency?
    Hurt played well until he picked up foul #3 - and then he became very tentative.
    I'd like to see more Williams.
    Jalen - at some point, I'm hoping he breaks out. The talent is there, the judgment is . . . questionable.

    Pleased to see the team fight to the end.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    @DukeMBB
    Coach K: “Illinois was old and good, and we were young and not good. I think on the defensive end we’re hungry and play hard, but on offense we’re not good and we’re not confident. We work hard, but have a lot of growing to do.”

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    I was probably a little lackluster on Hurt in my first post, I was put off by his 0-6 (and not even close) 3 point shooting. He’s been our best player for the season and is the closest we have to a star right now.

    Dosunmu and Cockburn had good games, especially Dosunmu, but I feel like it was the combination of the solid all around play by Miller, Williams, Frazier, Curbelo and Bezvanishvili that killed us. What a supporting cast. Those guys all made big plays.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    The last time Duke had multiple home losses this early in the calendar year was 1981-82 (Coach K's second season at Duke), when their 2nd home loss came on December 5.
    You know, there might just be some truth to the idea that the home crowd and atmosphere at Cameron Indoor has played a legitimate role in the success of the Duke men over the years. Maybe even more than we knew.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I was probably a little lackluster on Hurt in my first post, I was put off by his 0-6 (and not even close) 3 point shooting. He’s been our best player for the season and is the closest we have to a star right now.
    yeah putting this game on the guy who had 19 and 7, on 8-9 shooting inside the arc is a bit silly. It's like asking frodo why he didn't also kill the wraiths on the way to mordor. Everyone has off shooting nights. The fact that the rest of the team has been so lackluster offensively that it can't absorb if he doesn't play perfectly every night isn't Hurt's fault.

    Y'all's bar for Matthew is way too high. He's not going to put up 25-10 on 50% from 3 every night.

    (not putting it specifically on you, but there was a lot of hemming and hawing in the in-game that was bothering me)

    Kid's a stud, and had a really good game in spite of his doughnut. at 2 or 3 for 6, he has a ridiculous game, and we still lose.
    1200. DDMF.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Winston-Salem, NC
    I have lower expectations for this team than I have had for previous Duke teams. This could be a difficult season.

    We have been spoiled.

    I will be thrilled if they prove me wrong.

    Sometimes lower expectations can be good.

  14. #14
    We managed to combine really awful offense with horrendous defense in this one. That's a tough combination if you want to compete.

    OFFENSE

    Possessions: 75.0 (pretty fast; we've had three 75+ pace games out of four, although the slower game was our best game statistically so maybe we shouldn't go so fast)
    oRtg: 0.91 (this was kind of putrid, barely better than against MSU)
    eFG%: 44.0% (meh)
    3pt%: 22.7% (poor)
    2pt%: 48.9% (barely adequate)
    %threes: 32.8% (by far our lowest of the year, which I'd say was a good thing)
    FT rate: 23.9% (not good; 2nd "best" of the season in this category, which only tells you how bad we've been)
    OR%: 26.7% (somewhat lousy, but Illinois is a pretty big team)
    TO%: 16.0% (we can live with this, assuming we do something else well on offense, which wasn't really the case tonight)
    a/to: 1.17:1 (second straight game above 1:1, I guess we can be happy for small favors)
    %assisted: 51.9% (third game out of four above 50%; I'm not sure if this is because we're passing well or because we're not making so many baskets)
    fast break pts: 8 (11.8% of points; ugh, our first real clunker in this category)

    DEFENSE

    dRtg: 1.11 (this is scary bad, especially for a poor offensive team)
    eFG%: 65.0% (downright atrocious)
    3pt%: 63.6% (sooooooooo bad)
    2pt%: 56.4% (bad)
    %threes: 22.0% (lucky they didn't take many threes, or this might have gotten really ugly)
    FT rate: 48.0% (horrendous)
    DR%: 84.0% (fabulous! Especially against a big team like Illinois; finally, we've found a team strength, we've been above 70% in all four games and above 75% in three of four)
    TO%: 24.0% (this is actually pretty good)
    a/to: 0.72:1 (every opponent we've faced has been below 1:1, which must say something, though I'm not sure what)
    %assisted: 44.8%
    stl%: 10.7% (adequate)
    blk%: 10.0% (12.8% of 2pt shots) (good, for the third game out of four)
    fast break pts: 24 (28.9% of points; OK, this is just awful, and it's the 4th game out of four that we've been bad at this stat, and 3rd game out of four that we've been really bad (>25% of opponents' points)


    On defense, we were good at rebounding and turning them over, but our opposing eFG% and FT rate were so bad, we never had a chance. Conversely on offense, we did nothing particularly well. If there ever was a game to say "next play," this one is it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    Everything looks too fast for Wendell, mentally and physically. He’s in a pretty deep hole right now. We need him to come back from that, but against teams like Illinois, we can’t afford to let him play his way out of it.
    I know one-game plus/minus is borderline useless, and it's even more useless when analyzing a mere 7 minutes, but pursuant to our pre-game conversation about Wendell's intangible defensive contributions, our defense gave up 62.9 points per 40 minutes while Wendell was in the game and 87.3 points per 40 minutes when he wasn't.

    So, realizing that he's made just one of his last 19 shots (and none of his shots tonight were particularly good takes) and everybody's fairly down on him (including K, who basically benched him for this one), I think we should entertain the possibility that Wendell needs to play 25+ mpg for no other reason than to keep our defense in one piece.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I know one-game plus/minus is borderline useless, and it's even more useless when analyzing a mere 7 minutes, but pursuant to our pre-game conversation about Wendell's intangible defensive contributions, our defense gave up 62.9 points per 40 minutes while Wendell was in the game and 87.3 points per 40 minutes when he wasn't.

    So, realizing that he's made just one of his last 19 shots (and none of his shots tonight were particularly good takes) and everybody's fairly down on him (including K, who basically benched him for this one), I think we should entertain the possibility that Wendell needs to play 25+ mpg for no other reason than to keep our defense in one piece.
    Agree that Wendell makes the pieces fit a bit better on defense, and that Duke really needs him to be good in order to reach its potential.

    If WM isn’t gonna shoot it or handle the ball reliably (I know, it’s early ) then I’m still fine at this point with K trying out different pieces who improve the defense and bring something else to the table. Frankly, if Wendell isn’t going to space the floor, go big and get an actual rim protector on the floor at all times. Or, try out some funky, 3 forwards lineups with Henry Coleman - who’s already one of the best off-ball defenders on the team IMO (yes, SSS).

    All that being said, I think Wendell will settle in there and be back in the 25-30 mpg range. He still seems to be in his own head and I have to think that was a part of why K benched him tonight. (Well that, and a truly devastating shooting slump)

  17. #17
    Too many negatives to dwell on, but I'll mention one...Wendell is not right. Our coaches need to figure out a way to get him on the right mental path. The game seems foreign to him at this point.

    Will dwell on a few positives:
    • I really think this game will be a learning moment. Hopefully, the team will take Illinois as a good measuring stick of where we need to be at the end of the season.
    • Roach played a game like we'd like him to consistently. He was aggressive with better control tonight, and I like that he drove into the lane. That will create opportunities for us.
    • Good defensive intensity for most of the game. This will need to be our calling card.
    • While DJ did not fill the stat sheet, I liked his aggressiveness and "give me the ball" mentality. He has a scorer's mindset, and that will serve him well.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I know one-game plus/minus is borderline useless, and it's even more useless when analyzing a mere 7 minutes, but pursuant to our pre-game conversation about Wendell's intangible defensive contributions, our defense gave up 62.9 points per 40 minutes while Wendell was in the game and 87.3 points per 40 minutes when he wasn't.

    So, realizing that he's made just one of his last 19 shots (and none of his shots tonight were particularly good takes) and everybody's fairly down on him (including K, who basically benched him for this one), I think we should entertain the possibility that Wendell needs to play 25+ mpg for no other reason than to keep our defense in one piece.
    Wendell and Goldwire on the floor that much together and we don’t score 50 points. We too easy to guard right now as is. Having two non-threats on the floor would hamper an already struggling offensive club. One of the mistakes that got Wendelll yanked tonight was defensive too. Everything is too fas t for him. The sample size is too small to put much weight in this anyway.

    It's not a rosy outlook either way, but I’d rather improve on offense and our score people a little than have to win rock fights. It's not like one is a path to the final four Anne the other to mediocrity. Similar results, different aesthetics depending on the choice.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    "I think on the defensive end we’re hungry and play hard, but on offense we’re not good and we’re not confident. We work hard, but have a lot of growing to do.”
    That's reassuring. At several points during last night's game, I was wondering if the team had even practiced together.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    "I think on the defensive end we’re hungry and play hard, but on offense we’re not good and we’re not confident. We work hard, but have a lot of growing to do.”
    That's reassuring. At several points during last night's game, I was wondering if the team had even practiced together yet.
    Last edited by weezie; 12-09-2020 at 07:14 AM.

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