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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Well (unless women's soccer is different) you only get three subs, so you can't exactly empty your bench. I would say that looking to score up 12-0 in added time is a bit unusual at any level of soccer, I'll stop short of saying it was bad sportsmanship though.
    jeezum crow as they say around here, that was my original point, so i'll state it again: it would be nice if there were a rule which allowed a team that's ahead by a huge margin to clear its bench so presumably lesser players (though of course still very good, and better than the Thai player) could get some time and PERHAPS the final score could be moderated a bit, all the time encouraging everyone to play hard.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    jeezum crow as they say around here, that was my original point, so i'll state it again: it would be nice if there were a rule which allowed a team that's ahead by a huge margin to clear its bench so presumably lesser players (though of course still very good, and better than the Thai player) could get some time and PERHAPS the final score could be moderated a bit, all the time encouraging everyone to play hard.
    ...at which point that team will have a huge advantage since their players had a chance to rest...but effectively even given the outcome I think team USA didn't have to expend maximum effort yesterday.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    ...at which point that team will have a huge advantage since their players had a chance to rest...but effectively even given the outcome I think team USA didn't have to expend maximum effort yesterday.
    yeah, there really is not a great solution to playing a badly outmatched opponent, but in my original post I just thought it would be nice if the sub rule could be amended so the bench could be cleared in a blowout...some of the players on the team (like all high end teams) aren't likely to see any game action at all in the World Cup, and I thought that letting them run around a bit on world TV would be nice for them...

  4. #44
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    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    yeah, there really is not a great solution to playing a badly outmatched opponent, but in my original post I just thought it would be nice if the sub rule could be amended so the bench could be cleared in a blowout...some of the players on the team (like all high end teams) aren't likely to see any game action at all in the World Cup, and I thought that letting them run around a bit on world TV would be nice for them...
    I agree that there's really not a great solution to this problem. I had no problem at all with them scoring like they did. And while it would have been nice to hold back the celebrating a little, it really would be hard to not be extremely excited when you perform like that on the world's biggest stage in your sport. And for several of the women, it was their first opportunity on that stage. Pretty much any fix I've seen in that situation still doesn't avoid humiliation which is unfortunate.

    If you clear the bench - which would take a rule change - you're still saying, "You guys aren't good enough to deal with our starters"

    Or if you do like our son's team did, you still humiliate the other team. They sometimes got in games where they significantly over-matched their opponents. When his coach recognized that, and the score got up to around 4-0, he sent in the order, "OK, nobody can take a shot until after there have been four or five passes in the area of the 18 yard box". So they played keep away for about forty-five seconds, and then still scored sometimes. Again, kind of humiliating.

    And when our daughter was playing on a rec league team, her coach had a different approach he tried. Once the score hit around 6-0, he pulled a player off the field on every successive goal. I think there was one game that he got down to only having seven players on the field and he started worrying about what the league rules were for a minimum number of players in the game for it to be legal. So it was a nice thought, but again, pretty humiliating when you're still getting handled even though you have a three or four player advantage.

    Those are pretty extreme and obviously not applicable when you're playing for the World Cup. But sometimes you're just going to get totally whipped, and sometimes the celebrating is going to hurt. You gotta move on and get better.

  5. #45
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    Feb 2007
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    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by Ggallagher View Post
    I agree that there's really not a great solution to this problem. I had no problem at all with them scoring like they did. And while it would have been nice to hold back the celebrating a little, it really would be hard to not be extremely excited when you perform like that on the world's biggest stage in your sport. And for several of the women, it was their first opportunity on that stage. Pretty much any fix I've seen in that situation still doesn't avoid humiliation which is unfortunate.

    If you clear the bench - which would take a rule change - you're still saying, "You guys aren't good enough to deal with our starters"

    Or if you do like our son's team did, you still humiliate the other team. They sometimes got in games where they significantly over-matched their opponents. When his coach recognized that, and the score got up to around 4-0, he sent in the order, "OK, nobody can take a shot until after there have been four or five passes in the area of the 18 yard box". So they played keep away for about forty-five seconds, and then still scored sometimes. Again, kind of humiliating.

    And when our daughter was playing on a rec league team, her coach had a different approach he tried. Once the score hit around 6-0, he pulled a player off the field on every successive goal. I think there was one game that he got down to only having seven players on the field and he started worrying about what the league rules were for a minimum number of players in the game for it to be legal. So it was a nice thought, but again, pretty humiliating when you're still getting handled even though you have a three or four player advantage.

    Those are pretty extreme and obviously not applicable when you're playing for the World Cup. But sometimes you're just going to get totally whipped, and sometimes the celebrating is going to hurt. You gotta move on and get better.
    I'm jealous, my kids were always on the other teams
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I'm jealous, my kids were always on the other teams
    I was the goalie on that other team. Ugh.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ggallagher View Post
    I agree that there's really not a great solution to this problem... Pretty much any fix I've seen in that situation still doesn't avoid humiliation which is unfortunate.
    I agree with your analysis but I also think the USA women are guilty of bad manners.

    Score all you want, sure. Carry on like lunatics in round one? Ain't won nothing yet ladies.

    I'm not a soccer fan and I don't make excuses for any bad field behavior, male or female. But, as Madison Ave says, any attention is good attention.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  8. #48
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    As I read more about the controversy, I continue to think (and agree with everyone here) that the starters simply have to continue to play hard...they did that, and it's absolutely fine.

    However, I will admit to thinking at the time that Rapinoe's 9-0 celebration of whirling and sliding was a bit much given the circumstances....a group hug and some high fives would have been a bit less cringeworthy, but
    she gets to do what she wants...when I'm in the World Cup I'll get to do it my way, too.

  9. #49
    I suspect that they got exactly what they wanted - what better way to get people talking about the USWNT? Do you think they get 40+ posts here and mention on every sports radio show for a 5-0 win? Do you think most shows on ESPN even mention the pay disparity controversy? What do you think viewership of the next game will be like, now that everyone with ears heard about the 13 goal drubbing?

  10. #50
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    The whole idea is to beat the other team. Beat them soundly, if possible.

    Mission accomplished.

    Celebrations? Sure! Act like it's the World Cup, even if it isn't... oh, it is. Celebrate! Let the chips fall where they may.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  11. #51
    Most youth soccer tournaments I have been to cap goal differential at something like 3-4 goal margin. That way, there's no incentive for a team to score beyond a 4 goal lead as the points are the same. If you don't want teams to score 13 goals, cap goal differential and make it meaningless. For league games it is rare to see someone run up the score. It typically only happens in tournaments where GD is important.

    I have also seen pulling a player off once the score differential gets 5 goals or higher, but that's not done above 12 year old leagues (academy). Running in a ton of subs goes against the entire spirit of the international game. It would be akin to having a mercy rule in the NBA/MLB/NFL playoffs.

    I have been on the other side of some lopsided scores in soccer and it's not fun at all. Typically that's because a team is in the wrong division. It's humbling to think you've got a really good team and then play up a division and get creamed.

    That being said, this isn't youth soccer, it's the FIFA world championships. The US didn't go to France to make friends; they came to rip everyone's throats out and win a world title. If you don't like getting beat 13-0, do something about it on the field. I can see the celebrations being seen as tacky, but the game is supposed to be fun, and scoring a goal in the world cup is a big deal. The goals the US scored were all pretty brilliant. Alex Morgan especially had some ridiculous touches on the ball. Lloyd's goal in stoppage time was definitely unnecessary, but so was stoppage time in general. No need to play 3 extra minutes with a 12-0 score. That's entirely up to the referee's discretion.
    "There can BE only one."

  12. #52
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
    Most youth soccer tournaments I have been to cap goal differential at something like 3-4 goal margin. That way, there's no incentive for a team to score beyond a 4 goal lead as the points are the same. If you don't want teams to score 13 goals, cap goal differential and make it meaningless. For league games it is rare to see someone run up the score. It typically only happens in tournaments where GD is important.

    I have also seen pulling a player off once the score differential gets 5 goals or higher, but that's not done above 12 year old leagues (academy). Running in a ton of subs goes against the entire spirit of the international game. It would be akin to having a mercy rule in the NBA/MLB/NFL playoffs.

    I have been on the other side of some lopsided scores in soccer and it's not fun at all. Typically that's because a team is in the wrong division. It's humbling to think you've got a really good team and then play up a division and get creamed.

    That being said, this isn't youth soccer, it's the FIFA world championships. The US didn't go to France to make friends; they came to rip everyone's throats out and win a world title. If you don't like getting beat 13-0, do something about it on the field. I can see the celebrations being seen as tacky, but the game is supposed to be fun, and scoring a goal in the world cup is a big deal. The goals the US scored were all pretty brilliant. Alex Morgan especially had some ridiculous touches on the ball. Lloyd's goal in stoppage time was definitely unnecessary, but so was stoppage time in general. No need to play 3 extra minutes with a 12-0 score. That's entirely up to the referee's discretion.
    The one advantage that hockey has over soccer:

    You try to run up the score, there's gonna be a brawl.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  13. #53
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    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    The one advantage that hockey has over soccer:

    You try to run up the score, there's gonna be a brawl.
    One might argue that would be somewhat true in men's soccer as well (or at least some particularly nasty, cleats up tackles). See also: Gerald Henderson vs. Tyler Hansbrough.

    There are really three arguments that are being made by people who didn't like this whole thing:

    1) People who don't care about the celebrations, but do care about running up the score: I think this is a little off base, because as has been mentioned goal differential matters and this was a chance to make history for some players that have never played in the World Cup. The GD explanation rings a tad bit hollow for the last couple goals, but makes sense. This is probably the most incorrect stance.

    2) People who care about both the scoring and the celebrations

    3) People who think the scoring was fine but the continued over the top celebrations were a bad look

    I think #3 has the most merit, the sliding scissor kick would have felt tacky/over the top even if it had been an important goal.

    As far as holding women to a different standard, people complain about celebrations in men's sports all the time. So much so that we created rules penalizing them for it in some cases. I also wouldn't equivocate a sliding scissor-kick with a basketball player waving their finger or holding up three fingers after scoring while up 30. The equivalence there would be Seth Curry draining a three, then doing a backflip onto the scorer's table, doing a Danny Green style dance on the table, then jumping down and doing a choreographed series of high fives, chest bumps, and fist bumps with all the guys on the bench (while up 30). That doesn't mean absolute stoicism for the last 6 goals, it just means reign it in a little. Do a fist pump, smile, yell, go slap five with some teammates, or whatever, and move on. Specific to soccer, there are several examples of men's teams blowing out weaker squads in the World Cup, and generally while they don't stop scoring they do lay off the celebrations (I know Germany has a few instances of this, for example).

    It doesn't mean everyone on the women's team are terrible people, or that they should be sanctioned, or anything like that, but it is certainly fair to point out that it got a little tacky by late game.

  14. #54
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Watching France/Norway, good match. Huge penalty kick just given to France. The PK gives France a 2-1 lead. I didn't agree with the call but I might be biased by the French player acting as if she'd been shot. I hope Norway comes back to win!

  15. #55
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    ^^ yeah, I'm in the #3 camp not that it matters much now...I was thinking during the game, relative to OPK's point (hockey) on a brawl about baseball...strut around the bases after an HR when you're nine runs ahead and someone will certainly get plunked.

  16. #56
    Big 3-2 win by Australia over Brazil today. Australia was down 2-0 in the first half, but made it 2-1 just before the half with a goal during stoppage time. The game-winner for Australia came on an own-goal by Brazil.

    Australia had lost its opener to Italy, so this was a must-win for them.

    Brazil got really chippy in the last several minutes and some yellows got handed out. Must admit I enjoyed watching the Aussies win, as the Brazilian women were almost as theatrically over-the-top and melodramatic as the men.
    "I swear Roy must redeem extra timeouts at McDonald's the day after the game for free hamburgers." --Posted on InsideCarolina, 2/18/2015

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom B. View Post
    Big 3-2 win by Australia over Brazil today. Australia was down 2-0 in the first half, but made it 2-1 just before the half with a goal during stoppage time. The game-winner for Australia came on an own-goal by Brazil.

    Australia had lost its opener to Italy, so this was a must-win for them.

    Brazil got really chippy in the last several minutes and some yellows got handed out. Must admit I enjoyed watching the Aussies win, as the Brazilian women were almost as theatrically over-the-top and melodramatic as the men.
    When Brazil loses everybody else wins!
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I was thinking during the game, relative to OPK's point (hockey) on a brawl about baseball...strut around the bases after an HR when you're nine runs ahead and someone will certainly get plunked.
    I too am in the #3 camp. The over the top celebration by an experienced player like Rapinoe was in especially bad form, I thought. So, let's take this a step further. What if one of the Thai players had employed the "baseball rule" and taken a cheap shot at Rapinoe or someone else as payback for the strutting that team USA was doing? What if someone had gotten hurt as a result? We'd all be pretty up in arms if that had happened and yet I almost sorta think it would be justifiable.

    If I am the coach of the team, I'd tell my players that acting like they just saved the world from Thanos every time they score when they are already up by 6 or more goals is likely to result in someone getting hurt... and also likely to result in someone running a !#^@@^-ton of stadium steps at the next practice. The coach needs to be the calmer head who reigns this kind of stuff in.

    13-0 would have gotten just as much attention and headlines without acting like preening jerks every time we score.


    -Jason "At least a little bit of this can be chalked up to these players seeing Brandi Chastain become a global celebrity for showing her sports bra" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I too am in the #3 camp. The over the top celebration by an experienced player like Rapinoe was in especially bad form, I thought. So, let's take this a step further. What if one of the Thai players had employed the "baseball rule" and taken a cheap shot at Rapinoe or someone else as payback for the strutting that team USA was doing? What if someone had gotten hurt as a result? We'd all be pretty up in arms if that had happened and yet I almost sorta think it would be justifiable.

    If I am the coach of the team, I'd tell my players that acting like they just saved the world from Thanos every time they score when they are already up by 6 or more goals is likely to result in someone getting hurt... and also likely to result in someone running a !#^@@^-ton of stadium steps at the next practice. The coach needs to be the calmer head who reigns this kind of stuff in.

    13-0 would have gotten just as much attention and headlines without acting like preening jerks every time we score.


    -Jason "At least a little bit of this can be chalked up to these players seeing Brandi Chastain become a global celebrity for showing her sports bra" Evans
    Brandi Chastain became a global celebrity by scoring a big goal and celebrating like a champ.
    Carolina delenda est

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Brandi Chastain became a global celebrity by scoring a big goal and celebrating like a champ.
    (Emphasis mine)

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