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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Honolulu

    Joey Baker Article on The Athletic

    The Athletic has a great Joey Baker article up today. It requires a subscription, but I will echo what I've seen others mention here in saying that The Athletic is worth it, IMO. It provides some insight into Joey's thinking regarding reclassifying, redshirting (almost), and those 18 minutes. It also gives a sense of his mentality and strong work ethic. He sounds like a great kid with a good head on his shoulders.

    A couple interesting quotes:
    When Baker reclassified into the 2018 class, he was fully intending to sit out the season. He was just 17 when he arrived on campus last summer and didn’t turn 18 until classes had started. But he’s also a competitor who, the more he practiced, the more he wanted to play. He continually told members of the coaching staff that he’d be ready if they needed him, never really thinking they would take him up on the offer as the season got deep into ACC play.
    Baker now wants to make everyone remember why Duke signed him. At the very least, he wants to be viewed in a way that doesn’t frame him as the fifth wheel of last year’s top-ranked freshman class. Anything to change the narrative that best defined him this season as the player who had his redshirt burned for just 18 minutes of playing time. He knows how it looks. But he also believes it was worth it. “This past year I packed in so much information from the coaching staff, the players I was playing with, I just got bigger, better and stronger,” Baker says. “That’s what I felt like I wanted to do coming into (last) year and I think I accomplished that.”
    And finally, an observation from Coach K that I'm sure some people might have feelings about:
    Krzyzewski says Baker’s gradual progression as a freshman “used to be normal and still is normal for a lot of programs, but not ours.”
    Hopefully we see a lot more than 18 minutes of Joey this year. Best of luck to him.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

    Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Honolulu
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

    Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.
    I agree. I don't think it made sense to burn the red shirt. That said, I also don't think Joey planned on using all his eligibility, and burning the RS will only ever matter if he's not ready to go pro at the end of year 4 (if he's not, does the 5th year do much for him beyond giving him an extra year of free college?). I'll choose to be optimistic and say that he will be ready by then, if not sooner.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JetpackJesus View Post
    I agree. I don't think it made sense to burn the red shirt. That said, I also don't think Joey planned on using all his eligibility, and burning the RS will only ever matter if he's not ready to go pro at the end of year 4 (if he's not, does the 5th year do much for him beyond giving him an extra year of free college?). I'll choose to be optimistic and say that he will be ready by then, if not sooner.
    I think it is sort of underselling things to say that the 5th year is just an extra year of free college. It is certainly that, but it is more:
    1. It is an extra year of playing major D1 b-ball
    2. It is an extra opportunity to be in the big dance
    3. It is an extra year to be adored on campus rather than possibly/probably just a relative nobody
    4. It is one more low-risk, high-profile chance to enhance your resume for the NBA
    5. It is an extra year to be a kid and just have fun

    Very few guys turn down the opportunity for that 5th year when given the chance. Not all choose to come back. But most do unless their NBA dreams are met.

    As for the “he didn’t plan on using all of his eligibility” idea: did Michael Gbinije plan to? How about Amile Jefferson? Mason Plumlee? Kyle Singler? Ryan Kelly? Sean Dockery? Shav Randolph? Chris Burgess? Lots of players more highly rated than Baker have not made their NBA dreams come true in under 4 years (if ever). Not saying Baker definitely won’t be NBA ready; just that it would be far from the first case of a highly-rated player not getting to the league early. Heck, given where he was rated, it should probably be the expectation that he uses all his eligibility. And the fact that he intended to redshirt suggests he understood the possibility that he would be a 4-year guy.

    I guess I would say that the decision was at best only slightly negative (regardless, he lost a bunch of games played). I would venture that it turns out costly for Baker. Again, time will tell how big a negative it turns out to be.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think it is sort of underselling things to say that the 5th year is just an extra year of free college. It is certainly that, but it is more:
    1. It is an extra year of playing major D1 b-ball
    2. It is an extra opportunity to be in the big dance
    3. It is an extra year to be adored on campus rather than possibly/probably just a relative nobody
    4. It is one more low-risk, high-profile chance to enhance your resume for the NBA
    5. It is an extra year to be a kid and just have fun

    Very few guys turn down the opportunity for that 5th year when given the chance. Not all choose to come back. But most do unless their NBA dreams are met.

    As for the “he didn’t plan on using all of his eligibility” idea: did Michael Gbinije plan to? How about Amile Jefferson? Mason Plumlee? Kyle Singler? Ryan Kelly? Sean Dockery? Shav Randolph? Chris Burgess? Lots of players more highly rated than Baker have not made their NBA dreams come true in under 4 years (if ever). Not saying Baker definitely won’t be NBA ready; just that it would be far from the first case of a highly-rated player not getting to the league early. Heck, given where he was rated, it should probably be the expectation that he uses all his eligibility. And the fact that he intended to redshirt suggests he understood the possibility that he would be a 4-year guy.

    I guess I would say that the decision was at best only slightly negative (regardless, he lost a bunch of games played). I would venture that it turns out costly for Baker. Again, time will tell how big a negative it turns out to be.
    All good points CDU. Without knowing the young man or his family, it's hard to predict what choice he may make at the end of his 4th year.

    I think that a lot of our expectations for this guy were lowered this year, maybe just in my case. I'm hoping that he really benefited from playing against RJ, Zion and Cam in practice and can have a productive year. Seems like a good kid and I wish him the best.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

    Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.
    Why are we discussing this again?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Why are we discussing this again?
    Because it's a fresh story on The Athletic? With a first person perspective?

    -jk

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Not really

    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    Because it's a fresh story on The Athletic? With a first person perspective?

    -jk
    Fine to talk about the article. From the quotes, it sounds like it's more focused on Joey's future.

    We've discussed using his first year of eligibility to excess here already. Maybe we should get past that.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Fine to talk about the article. From the quotes, it sounds like it's more focused on Joey's future.

    We've discussed using his first year of eligibility to excess here already. Maybe we should get past that.
    I maintain that we won't be able to truly evaluate the redshirt burn until one year AFTER he leaves Duke, whenever that may be. In the meantime, it's just navel gazing.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    We've discussed using his first year of eligibility to excess here already. Maybe we should get past that.
    maybe I'm confused...i thought this was dbr...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I maintain that we won't be able to truly evaluate the redshirt burn until one year AFTER he leaves Duke, whenever that may be. In the meantime, it's just navel gazing.
    It seems to me that the only place there was certainty that Baker intended to redshirt was on DBR. Why all of the angst?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

    Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.
    THIS ^^^....(and I don't always see eye to eye with CDu....)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    It seems to me that the only place there was certainty that Baker intended to redshirt was on DBR. Why all of the angst?
    It sounds like Baker, his family and the team also knew?
    Last edited by NSDukeFan; 06-05-2019 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Punctuation

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think it is sort of underselling things to say that the 5th year is just an extra year of free college. It is certainly that, but it is more:
    1. It is an extra year of playing major D1 b-ball
    2. It is an extra opportunity to be in the big dance
    3. It is an extra year to be adored on campus rather than possibly/probably just a relative nobody
    4. It is one more low-risk, high-profile chance to enhance your resume for the NBA
    5. It is an extra year to be a kid and just have fun

    Very few guys turn down the opportunity for that 5th year when given the chance. Not all choose to come back. But most do unless their NBA dreams are met.
    They call it a “victory lap” for a reason...

    Has anyone really tried to make the argument that 18 mins of time in 4 games was worth the redshirt burn? If so I’d like to know so I can ignore their posts for the remainder of time.

    Maybe he will go early and it will be irrelevant, but it most certainly wasn’t worth the value of the call option on either side. That option had value.

    (Also it wasn’t 18 mins: it was 5 mins against Syracuse + 1 min against VT. The other 12mins were garbage time in a 30 point and 23 point victory, respectively.)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    They call it a “victory lap” for a reason...

    Has anyone really tried to make the argument that 18 mins of time in 4 games was worth the redshirt burn? If so I’d like to know so I can ignore their posts for the remainder of time.

    Maybe he will go early and it will be irrelevant, but it most certainly wasn’t worth the value of the call option on either side. That option had value.

    (Also it wasn’t 18 mins: it was 5 mins against Syracuse + 1 min against VT. The other 12mins were garbage time in a 30 point and 23 point victory, respectively.)
    Okay, point taken. But it appears from the quotes in the Athletic article (don't have a subscription so haven't read the whole thing) that Joey was/is okay with it. So maybe that should be good enough for us?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    They call it a “victory lap” for a reason...

    Has anyone really tried to make the argument that 18 mins of time in 4 games was worth the redshirt burn? If so I’d like to know so I can ignore their posts for the remainder of time.

    Maybe he will go early and it will be irrelevant, but it most certainly wasn’t worth the value of the call option on either side. That option had value.

    (Also it wasn’t 18 mins: it was 5 mins against Syracuse + 1 min against VT. The other 12mins were garbage time in a 30 point and 23 point victory, respectively.)
    Sorry, I get your point, but math suggests that 18 minutes is 18 minutes.

    I'm not sure why folks are so determined to flog this horse so badly. If the player was on board and was on the bench ready to roll, are we really disputing K's logic behind trying to use him as a spark for a team that clearly needed some better outside shooting? I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.

    Are we begrudging K for trying?

  17. #17
    Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

    On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Winston-Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by Lar77 View Post
    Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

    On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)
    Idk if that is true. I think Seth was not eligible because it was his "transfer year". I could be wrong...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Sorry, I get your point, but math suggests that 18 minutes is 18 minutes.

    I'm not sure why folks are so determined to flog this horse so badly. If the player was on board and was on the bench ready to roll, are we really disputing K's logic behind trying to use him as a spark for a team that clearly needed some better outside shooting? I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.

    Are we begrudging K for trying?
    We are saying two different things. The decision at the time may have had some logic. To your point, IF he had earned some PT down the stretch he could have provided some much needed spacing/shooting.

    But he didn’t earn that time. So now we get the to play Monday morning point guard and evaluate the decision. And in hindsight, it’s a regrettable decision. It was a low probability move bringing in a guy who hadn’t played all year and seeing if he could figure it out all of a sudden. If you make a low probability move you better be right.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lar77 View Post
    Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

    On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)
    Hmmm, that's a really interesting point.

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