Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 65
  1. #21
    For foreign contractors a degree from a prestigious university means something. I worked with numerous Indian government contractors for years and they all were impressed as hell that I have an MA History from Duke. My MBA from WVU meant nothing to them. And most of these Asians had lived in the US for 6+ years. The two whom I worked with the most, their daughters were attending UVA and Harvard.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    LOL, well, in many of the reported cases, the parents paid a LOT of money to get their kids into colleges they would otherwise not get in. So, the parents, rightly or wrongly, must have believed it was worth the "investment".

    Furthermore, as I'm sure many people on this board realize, at many of these highly rated schools (including Duke), getting in is the hardest part. Once you're in, if you're reasonably intelligent and have some degree of motivation, you should be able to do fine and get a degree. And I do think that there is value, in the long run (disputed by some, I know), in having a degree from a "prestigious" school on your resume.
    Ironically, a NY Times column the other week by "The Ethicist," Kwame Anthony Appiah, reported on research that reached an odd conclusion. The people who benefit most from a degree from a prestigious university are those from the middle and lower middle classes. There is little measurable benefit to those from wealthy families -- presumably because they have all the contacts and intros they need.

    So, if true, we are left with "bragging rights" by the parents.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'Appiah just received an honorary degree from Duke'
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    I agree with this to a certain extent but a Top 10 - 20 university on your resume is pretty darn important in certain fields in terms of providing the exposure necessary to even have an opportunity to hitch your wagon to a professional star. Let's say your goal is to work in high finance and become an income one percent-er. You know one of the best paths to accomplish this is to work on Wall Street at one of the major investment banks --- those banks recruit at a clip of something like 15 - 20% out of the top 5 schools, near 30% out of the top 10 schools, and 50% out of the top 20. Millions of kids graduate from the ~ 2,000 universities in the USA each year but a disproportionate amount of future masters of the universe (as an example) will be recruited from much less <1% of the total student and university base.

    I don't disagree that the further you are removed from college, the more your work needs to speak for itself but boy does a prestigious school help put you in the position to even have the opportunity to say a few words in the first place (in certain professions).
    Exactly right! In many different professions and occupations, having the "right" degree can be a huge advantage for (at least) getting your foot in the door. Obviously, it is NO guarantee or getting a job or subsequently being successful at that job but it certainly can help. Furthermore, it can be a somewhat self-fulfilling prophecy, when people who go to the top schools become successful, they tend to hire and promote people like themselves. Of course, I know some people who will not specifically hire anyone from the top schools because they thing they are spoiled, over-indulged "know-it-alls" who will not be good employees (and maybe a certain amount of envy comes into play).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    With all due respect, I think some of these posts exaggerate the benefits. I'm starting to think one of you might even claim, if my Dad got me in Yale with a 1,200 SAT and I coasted through with a bunch of C's, then I could one day end up with a Harvard MBA and become POTUS. That's just crazy talk.
    LOL, so true! Of course, it also didn't hurt that GWB's father was wealthy and well-connected and could help his son in his career - business and political.

    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Ironically, a NY Times column the other week by "The Ethicist," Kwame Anthony Appiah, reported on research that reached an odd conclusion. The people who benefit most from a degree from a prestigious university are those from the middle and lower middle classes. There is little measurable benefit to those from wealthy families -- presumably because they have all the contacts and intros they need.

    So, if true, we are left with "bragging rights" by the parents.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'Appiah just received an honorary degree from Duke'
    Interesting research that I tend to believe but I'd like to see how the study was conducted.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Ironically, a NY Times column the other week by "The Ethicist," Kwame Anthony Appiah, reported on research that reached an odd conclusion. The people who benefit most from a degree from a prestigious university are those from the middle and lower middle classes. There is little measurable benefit to those from wealthy families -- presumably because they have all the contacts and intros they need.

    So, if true, we are left with "bragging rights" by the parents.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'Appiah just received an honorary degree from Duke'
    The Ethicist should have politely declined the degree, his family is wealthy.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    Of course, it also didn't hurt that GWB's father was wealthy and well-connected and could help his son in his career - business and political.
    I wonder if Gregory Abbott thought about that when Malcolm was going postal?

  6. #26

    Some things to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Do these parents actually believe they're helping their children by getting them in a school above their child's ability level?
    There were several kinds of cheating evidently. One was inflating SAT/ACT scores, submitting ghostwritten essays, etc. This is clearly trying to get in when the child may be not qualified.

    But lets look at the fake sports stuff. Duke and probably almost every other division 1 school is willing to admit athletes who would not get in otherwise. Should Duke be letting in these student/athletes if it is "above their ability" level? If a student took the SAT's himself, no cheating, wrote his own essay, did his own high school work, and then submitted that he was an athlete when he was not but got in as a recruited walk-on, then is the school above his level.

    Duke accepts around 10% of the applicants. My guess is that many that can do the work were not accepted. There is a big difference between no-accepted and not being able to do the work.

    I am not condoning the cheating. I also think the kids knew in almost every case and should be expelled and the parents punished. However I also think that some who got in this way can handle the workload at the school.

    SoCal

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    There were several kinds of cheating evidently. One was inflating SAT/ACT scores, submitting ghostwritten essays, etc. This is clearly trying to get in when the child may be not qualified.

    But lets look at the fake sports stuff. Duke and probably almost every other division 1 school is willing to admit athletes who would not get in otherwise. Should Duke be letting in these student/athletes if it is "above their ability" level? If a student took the SAT's himself, no cheating, wrote his own essay, did his own high school work, and then submitted that he was an athlete when he was not but got in as a recruited walk-on, then is the school above his level.

    Duke accepts around 10% of the applicants. My guess is that many that can do the work were not accepted. There is a big difference between no-accepted and not being able to do the work.

    I am not condoning the cheating. I also think the kids knew in almost every case and should be expelled and the parents punished. However I also think that some who got in this way can handle the workload at the school.

    SoCal
    I think whether they can handle the workload in these cheating cases is immaterial.

  8. #28

    I said they should be expelled

    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    I think whether they can handle the workload in these cheating cases is immaterial.
    I said I think the students should be expelled and the parents punished. I would agree that it is wrong and the consequences the same.

    I was replying to "Do these parents actually believe they're helping their children by getting them in a school above their child's ability level?"

    However I would say that a parent of a student who say was in the 10- 15% percentile of those applying to a certain school that only accepts the top 10%, that yes they were trying to help.


    SoCal

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    Should Duke be letting in these student/athletes if it is "above their ability" level? If a student took the SAT's himself, no cheating, wrote his own essay, did his own high school work, and then submitted that he was an athlete when he was not but got in as a recruited walk-on, then is the school above his level.
    SoCal
    It all goes back to the question of what kind student body do you want? My understanding is that the most generous donors tend to be extroverted jock types (and probably legacies too), so schools are flexible on academic criteria for jocks. You can debate over whether the goal of a university should be to increase its endowment as much as possible, but if that's the prime directive then it will drive your admission policies.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    ...My understanding is that the most generous donors tend to be extroverted jock types...
    My understanding is that what you described there is a thoroughly defective category. Sorry if that comes off as overly harsh, but I have a strong distaste for these sorts of categorizations of Duke students and alumni. My experience - both in relation to my contemporaneous student body, and decades of alumni I've known - is that the folks who defer to simple generalizations of Duke students and alumni tend to have the least understanding of them.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by BLPOG View Post
    My understanding is that what you described there is a thoroughly defective category. Sorry if that comes off as overly harsh, but I have a strong distaste for these sorts of categorizations of Duke students and alumni. My experience - both in relation to my contemporaneous student body, and decades of alumni I've known - is that the folks who defer to simple generalizations of Duke students and alumni tend to have the least understanding of them.
    I'm not categorizing anybody, I'm operating under the assumption that admissions decisions are driven, at least in part, by financial considerations. If anybody has any data, I'm all ears. I got nothing.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    It all goes back to the question of what kind student body do you want? My understanding is that the most generous donors tend to be extroverted jock types (and probably legacies too), so schools are flexible on academic criteria for jocks. You can debate over whether the goal of a university should be to increase its endowment as much as possible, but if that's the prime directive then it will drive your admission policies.
    I don't think you are right. Let's look at the named entities at Duke:

    Perkins -- lawyer and chair of the Duke Endowment -- neither alum nor athlete, although a very impressive guy -- we sat together at dinner once
    Rubenstein -- entrepreneur -- Carlyle Group -- definitely not an athlete, but a national treasure because of his many public-spirited donations
    Bostock -- football player and extremely successful in various business activities
    Nicholas -- not a varsity athlete, but founded Boston Scientific
    Pratt -- CEO of Pfizer -- no indication that he played varsity sports at Duke
    J.B. Fuqua -- never went to college

    That's one for six.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I don't think you are right. Let's look at the named entities at Duke:

    Perkins -- lawyer and chair of the Duke Endowment -- neither alum nor athlete, although a very impressive guy -- we sat together at dinner once
    Rubenstein -- entrepreneur -- Carlyle Group -- definitely not an athlete, but a national treasure because of his many public-spirited donations
    Bostock -- football player and extremely successful in various business activities
    Nicholas -- not a varsity athlete, but founded Boston Scientific
    Pratt -- CEO of Pfizer -- no indication that he played varsity sports at Duke
    J.B. Fuqua -- never went to college

    That's one for six.
    I understand those notorious extroverted jocks Bill and Melinda Gates have donated generously to Duke.


    And yes, they are jocks, they play Pickleball!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I understand those notorious extroverted jocks Bill and Melinda Gates have donated generously to Duke.


    And yes, they are jocks, they play Pickleball!
    Then why are athletes given preferential treatment in admissions? I can understand football / basketball athletes, as those are revenue generators. But why are athletes in minor sports given a break on admissions?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    ... why are athletes in minor sports given a break on admissions ...
    PR for the school. Tradition of wanting to excel in competition.

    Interesting article: https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...udents/573688/

    That raises a baffling question: Why are colleges willing to lower their admissions standards to recruit the best athletes when their expensive sports programs are unlikely to return the investment?

    For some colleges, it’s a ploy to burnish their national reputation by getting their name out there, on the field or on the court. And, in some cases, it works: After Florida Gulf Coast University made a David-and-Goliath-like run to the March Madness Sweet 16 in 2013, the school saw a 27.5 percent jump in applicants the following year.

    Incidental marketing aside, sports can also make a college seem more attractive to its students. Athletics, Thelin says, “is one of the few unifying activities that can bring the school together. Football, especially.” And, he told me, college sports can nurture loyalty to an institution years after a student leaves campus, and perhaps inspire one to donate money to the school.

    But how many people are really going to lacrosse games and sailing meets and the other sporting events that don’t typically have graduates reaching for their checkbook? Part of it is the power of tradition: For more than a century, colleges—starting with elite schools in the Northeast—have fixated on physical activity and sports as a way to mold young, impressionable students to their making. That continues today: “Strong academic colleges often like to at least offer the prospect of the sound mind, sound body,” Thelin says. And, still, colleges need to field a minimum number of sports to join a particular conference, such as the Ivy League, which prevents them from putting all their cards on the table for high-profile sports exclusively.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I don't think you are right. Let's look at the named entities at Duke:

    Perkins -- lawyer and chair of the Duke Endowment -- neither alum nor athlete, although a very impressive guy -- we sat together at dinner once
    Rubenstein -- entrepreneur -- Carlyle Group -- definitely not an athlete, but a national treasure because of his many public-spirited donations
    Bostock -- football player and extremely successful in various business activities
    Nicholas -- not a varsity athlete, but founded Boston Scientific
    Pratt -- CEO of Pfizer -- no indication that he played varsity sports at Duke
    J.B. Fuqua -- never went to college

    That's one for six.
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I understand those notorious extroverted jocks Bill and Melinda Gates have donated generously to Duke.


    And yes, they are jocks, they play Pickleball!
    Also big non athlete non alumni donors:
    Leon Levine - Family Dollar stores
    David Thomas - Wendy's

    So that's one for nine?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    I motion to count Mr Thomas twice on account of his contributions to the decline of this - and presumably many other - athletic bodies.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by WV_Iron_Duke View Post
    For foreign contractors a degree from a prestigious university means something. I worked with numerous Indian government contractors for years and they all were impressed as hell that I have an MA History from Duke. My MBA from WVU meant nothing to them. And most of these Asians had lived in the US for 6+ years. The two whom I worked with the most, their daughters were attending UVA and Harvard.
    I wonder who they bribed to get them accepted.

    Sadly, or maybe not, the college cheating scandal has affected every kid who goes to a prestigious university.

  19. #39
    Bostondevil says:"I wonder who they bribed to get them accepted.
    Sadly, or maybe not, the college cheating scandal has affected every kid who goes to a prestigious university."
    The daughters likely were admitted due to their minority status as exceptional foreign students. My fellow coworkers from India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka didn't make enough $ for bribes

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston area, OK, Newton, right by Heartbreak Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by WV_Iron_Duke View Post
    Bostondevil says:"I wonder who they bribed to get them accepted.
    Sadly, or maybe not, the college cheating scandal has affected every kid who goes to a prestigious university."
    The daughters likely were admitted due to their minority status as exceptional foreign students. My fellow coworkers from India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka didn't make enough $ for bribes
    Duke accepted 11.5% international students last year. That is one of the biggest forces behind the cheating scandals that rarely gets mentioned. Duke is actually on the low end of that statistic among highly selective schools. Every Ivy plus Duke and Stanford accepted record numbers of international students last year. None of those schools increased enrollment. International students are taking up more and more slots at these schools in the zero sum game of admissions. Are these kids exceptional students? Probably, although some are athletes and some have wealthy parents, and some have both. Are they more exceptional than the American students they are replacing? No. They aren't. And that's a problem. American families subsidize our universities with our tax dollars at a time when more and more American students are getting squeezed out.

    My solution is to quit making it a zero sum game. We should start putting financial pressure on American universities to increase the enrollment of American students. Duke, among others, lauds their increase in international students as improving the quality of the education for all. Exposure to different cultures is a benefit. Well, sure, except you are decreasing the number of American students who receive that benefit. Duke's undergraduate enrollment has not increased since I was there in the '80s. Meanwhile the number of applications has more than tripled. There is no good reason why the student body size has not increased as well.

Similar Threads

  1. Another scandal in college sports (cheating and bribes)
    By JasonEvans in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 241
    Last Post: 03-28-2019, 12:56 PM
  2. College basketball scandal expands - UMd subpoenaed
    By -jk in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 07-10-2018, 06:59 PM
  3. WBB: Duke vs (the non-cheating) Carolina
    By devildeac in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-07-2015, 10:30 AM
  4. Cheating scandal... at HARVARD???
    By FerryFor50 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-11-2012, 05:43 PM
  5. Notable Duke alumna died today
    By jdj4duke in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-01-2010, 04:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •