Nassir Little throws Roy under bus

[ice-9]

[/B]

I'm curious. Did anyone explain how Cam could have been used in an optimal way? What position or role better suited Cam?

One big adjustment Cam shared was that he handled the ball a lot more in high school so college was different.

But the dude turned it over a lot with us!

Cam added a lot of value to the team by virtue of his defense and decent if not stellar shooting. But he probably shouldn’t be handling the ball a lot in college much less the NBA.

[OldPhiKap]

He had three fewer FG attempts, but he played in three more games.

Do you think that “the way we used Cam” did not give him enough shot attempts to prove himself?

My point was that if Cam did not show his skills to the pro scouts, it is not because we held him back or put him in a bad position. He struggled. Doesn’t mean he will not be a great player, but any struggles seemed internal and not due to how Duke used him.

[OldPhiKap]

Better way to say it — shot attempts per 40 minutes:

RJ 20.9
Zion 17.6
Cam 16.2
Tre 10.2
AOC 9.7

[golfinesquire]

Cam would probably been better in a pick and roll offense
He also had trouble adapting to being the third option.
But the kid never pouted and always played hard and
has nothing but good things to say about Zion snd RJ.
Will be interesting to see what happens in the pros. Before
the season began a number of people said he would be the best
pro of the three.

[Kedsy]

Do you think that “the way we used Cam” did not give him enough shot attempts to prove himself?

No, I don't.

I do think Cam didn't seem entirely comfortable in a catch-and-shoot role. I think a lot of his offensive struggles were due to trying too hard to prove he wasn't just a three-and-D player.

[DarkstarWahoo]

This has been a really good discussion on two of the more polarizing guys in the draft class. I think both Little and Reddish were seen as pretty big question marks around the middle of the ACC season, and both went some way toward answering those questions, perhaps moreso in Reddish's case.

Little's main issue was shooting. A guy who profiles as a wing in the NBA was shooting under 20 percent halfway through the season. He did improve and got it up to 26 percent by the end of the year. He does a lot of little things well - hits the glass, plays well in the paint for his position - but I don't see him as a lottery pick. He's probably going to need to spend time in the G League.

I think Reddish's issue, as others have implied, was that he didn't seem entirely comfortable with his role on the team. (This psychological analysis is no doubt worth every penny you're paying for it.) He's got great size for an NBA small forward but didn't seem to be a natural fit as a third option. He did pick it up from February on - 24 points vs. BC, 22 vs. Louisville (albeit on 19 shots), 27 and 23 in the home-and-home against UNC - but I think teams would be more comfortable had he showed more when Duke was at full strength. (Zion being out was, of course, not his fault.) I think there are some questions remaining about how he will integrate in the pros with players who are better than him - and there are a lot more of those in the NBA than in the ACC! - but he definitely put some of them to bed over the second half of the season.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree with OldPhiKap -- it's pretty hard to "troll for Carolina" if your name is "UNCFan."

At times, Nassir was painful to watch -- determined to drive and oblivious to his open teammates. I think Roy could have done more to bring him along, but who knows?

True, but the other way can be said as well: Roy did an incredible amount to bring along Coby White, who was an absolute stud in college (and more than anyone expected).

[flyingdutchdevil]

This has been a really good discussion on two of the more polarizing guys in the draft class. I think both Little and Reddish were seen as pretty big question marks around the middle of the ACC season, and both went some way toward answering those questions, perhaps moreso in Reddish's case.

Little's main issue was shooting. A guy who profiles as a wing in the NBA was shooting under 20 percent halfway through the season. He did improve and got it up to 26 percent by the end of the year. He does a lot of little things well - hits the glass, plays well in the paint for his position - but I don't see him as a lottery pick. He's probably going to need to spend time in the G League.

I think Reddish's issue, as others have implied, was that he didn't seem entirely comfortable with his role on the team. (This psychological analysis is no doubt worth every penny you're paying for it.) He's got great size for an NBA small forward but didn't seem to be a natural fit as a third option. He did pick it up from February on - 24 points vs. BC, 22 vs. Louisville (albeit on 19 shots), 27 and 23 in the home-and-home against UNC - but I think teams would be more comfortable had he showed more when Duke was at full strength. (Zion being out was, of course, not his fault.) I think there are some questions remaining about how he will integrate in the pros with players who are better than him - and there are a lot more of those in the NBA than in the ACC! - but he definitely put some of them to bed over the second half of the season.

I honestly don't believe this is correct. Cam's issue was a) ball handling, b) turnovers, and c) decision-making. Would he have been better at another school if he was alpha dog from Day 1? Possible. But I don't think any of those 3 issues would be solved during his freshman year. And despite a mediocre freshman year for a top 5 recruit, he's going to be a lottery pick. And based on his performance, he shouldn't be. But he's got a ton of potential and hopefully his floor is a Danny Green-impact 3-and-D player.

[golfinesquire]

I honestly don't believe this is correct. Cam's issue was a) ball handling, b) turnovers, and c) decision-making. Would he have been better at another school if he was alpha dog from Day 1? Possible. But I don't think any of those 3 issues would be solved during his freshman year. And despite a mediocre freshman year for a top 5 recruit, he's going to be a lottery pick. And based on his performance, he shouldn't be. But he's got a ton of potential and hopefully his floor is a Danny Green-impact 3-and-D player.

I don't think you can look at those things in a vacuum. It was certainly possible he was pressing to try to make things happen and that he felt he needed to do something quickly as he was not likely to get the ball back in each offensive sequence. In that scenario, he was prone to make bad decisions as he was not letting the game come to him.

[CDu]

I don't think you can look at those things in a vacuum. It was certainly possible he was pressing to try to make things happen and that he felt he needed to do something quickly as he was not likely to get the ball back in each offensive sequence. In that scenario, he was prone to make bad decisions as he was not letting the game come to him.

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

[golfinesquire]

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

He is only 19. I have a a funny feeling that he will get a lot better with time. The league drafts on potential and he has plenty of that.

[HashThat]

Don't see how this helps with recruiting

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sp...230497369.html

Negative recruiting can be just baseless lies too. One little thing really doesn't make a difference. It all depends upon the assistants' willingness to fabricate and exaggerate.

A lot of the cutthroat nature of recruiting can be removed if coaches performed better evaluations of talent and fit the talent to their particular teams. Instead, everyone just wants 5 star hype, which is no guarantee of any sort of success.

Winning in recruiting does seem to supersede winning National Championships as priority for many fans and even for coaches.

[Steven43]

Maybe Roy gets nervous around 5-stars and can't perform, metaphorically. Maybe metaphorically Roy couldn't unhook Little's bra but with a mere 4-star like White, he metaphorically was motorboating Coby within seconds.

I can’t even believe you wrote this. Hilarious. And quite risqué for DBR.

[Steven43]

Roy is good at developing point guards and lower-ranked bigs. He is terrible at developing wings. At least that's been the general pattern since he's been at UNC. And also cheating.

That last sentence is classic.

[Steven43]

I've not kept up with the OAD debate at the NCAA/NBA level, but I'd like to see basketball adopt the baseball rule: you can go straight to the pros out of high school but, if you go to college, you've got to stay through your junior year. Admittedly, that view is colored by self-interest to a certain extent, for I would like to see what, say, Krzyzewski could do with Barrett if he had Barrett for 3 years (a lot of material there to work with, but a lot of room to grow, too). Or Williams if he had Little for three years.

All that said, I think it would generally be better for the players (though some would make the mistake of going to the pros when their "minor league" is woefully underdeveloped) and certainly would be better for the college game. Basketball, at its best, is a team sport and one season is not enough time to develop a team to its fullest potential.

Agree and agree. If you choose the college route you cannot play in the NBA until three years have passed. I would be perfectly, selfishly, fine with that. And yes, basketball is the ultimate team sport and one year is not nearly enough time to fully develop a team. But what are you gonna do, you know? The old days are gone for now. Let’s bring ‘em back!

[jimsumner]

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

I talked with an NBA guy a couple of times about Reddish. He thought that Reddish never adjusted to not having the ball in his hands all the time. Reddish was a ball-dominant player in high school and then suddenly he wasn't. So, when he got the ball, he tried too hard to make something happen because he feared that it he gave it up, he might not get it back again.

[jimsumner]

Agree and agree. If you choose the college route you cannot play in the NBA until three years have passed. I would be perfectly, selfishly, fine with that. And yes, basketball is the ultimate team sport and one year is not nearly enough time to fully develop a team. But what are you gonna do, you know? The old days are gone for now. Let’s bring ‘em back!

This is more complicated than it first appears. Professional baseball has a huge minor-league infrastructure. Most of the top high-school players sign professionally. Not all. But college coaches at the top-tier programs lose top recruits all the time. Fewer than 40 percent of current major-leaguers played college ball. How many people on this board know that Mike Trout signed with East Carolina, that Madison Bumgarner signed with UNC, that Josh Hamilton signed with NC State?

These 18-year-olds don't sign with any reasonable expectation of making the majors any time soon. They work their way up through short-season rookie ball to a to advanced A, AA, AAA. Many never make the bigs and the rest take several years. Trout didn't make the majors until his third pro season and he's widely considered the best player of his generation.

Imagine Zion Williamson playing three seasons in the minors.

Basketball has smaller rosters, of course and a smaller talent pool. But require three years in college and a lot of prepsters who aren't inclined towards the classroom are going to opt to go pro when they do not have NBA games. Are there enough G-league and/or Euro-league slots for all these? Do we want the NBA to emulate MLB and have a farm chain? Do we want NCAA hoops to more closely replicate NCAA baseball?

I'm currently watching Boston College play Clemson in the ACC Tournament. Perhaps a thousand fans in the stands. Perhaps not.

These games are on TV. How many of you are watching them compared to how many of you would be watching Clemson play Boston College in the ACC Men's Basketball Tournament?

This isn't to say that ACC baseball isn't pretty good. It is and I've been able to watch Buster Posey and Marcus Stroman and Trea Turner and Kyle Seager and a lot of other future major leaguers play on ACC diamonds. But the gap between college baseball and the MLB is much greater than the gap between ACC basketball and the NCAA.

There's a reason there is no Duke Baseball Report and why I don't write all that much about baseball for this site. I'm interested but not enough readers are to justify a more robust involvement.


And I'm not a lawyer but baseball is immune from anti-trust legislation. Not sure how that plays in. Maybe a legal expert can chime in.

Is college basketball about talent or the rivalries? Could college basketball lose a sizeable chunk of the top-50, top-75, top-100 players without losing some of its mojo? We'd still care about Duke-Carolina? Would the rest of the country?

Lots of questions and I don't pretend to have all the answers. But going the baseball, three-year route has some serious land mines that would need to be negotiated.

[Steven43]

I talked with an NBA guy a couple of times about Reddish. He thought that Reddish never adjusted to not having the ball in his hands all the time. Reddish was a ball-dominant player in high school and then suddenly he wasn't. So, when he got the ball, he tried too hard to make something happen because he feared that it he gave it up, he might not get it back again.

I respectfully disagree with this “NBA guy”. Cam got the ball plenty. Unfortunately, he too often did something poorly with it when he did. And I am mystified as to how a supposedly ball-dominant high school player could come to college and have a mediocre handle, be pretty bad at driving without creating an offensive foul, and not be better at passing and reading the floor. None of it makes any sense unless Cam was playing against vastly inferior competition in high school as compared to the ACC.

[roywhite]

I respectfully disagree with this “NBA guy”. Cam got the ball plenty. Unfortunately, he too often did something poorly with it when he did. And I am mystified as to how a supposedly ball-dominant high school player could come to college and have a mediocre handle, be pretty bad at driving without creating an offensive foul, and not be better at passing and reading the floor. None of it makes any sense unless Cam was playing against vastly inferior competition in high school as compared to the ACC.

From high school to college is a big adjustment for nearly every young player, but to your point -- no, Cam did not participate against "vastly inferior competition in high school" at least as compared to other prospects (certainly at a higher level of competition than Zion encountered, and not far below the very top level of high school ball where RJ played). From wiki:

Reddish attended The Haverford School in Haverford Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania as a freshman before transferring to Westtown School in West Chester, Pennsylvania, where he teamed up with Class of 2017 five-star recruit & current NBA player Mohamed Bamba. As a junior, Reddish averaged 16.2 points per game and led the Moose to a Friend's School League title. [1] during the 2017 summer, Reddish averaged 23.8 points, 7.6 rebounds and 3.1 assist for his Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) team, Team Final, on the Nike EYBL Circuit. Later that summer, He played for United States men's national under-19 basketball team during the summer of 2017.[2] He was originally going to play for the under-17 team the previous summer, but did not make the team due to injury.[3] In his senior year, he averaged 22.6 points and 5.6 rebounds per game. After his senior season, he was named 2018 Mr. Pennsylvania Basketball. Reddish was selected to play in the 2018 McDonald's All-American Game, Jordan Brand Classic, and Nike Hoop Summit All-Star games.[4]

Reddish was rated as a five-star recruit and considered one of the top players in the 2018 class. He was ranked as the second best player in the 2018 class by 247Sports.com, while being ranked as the third-best recruit in the class of 2018 by ESPN.[5][6]

[bullettoothtony]

I talked with an NBA guy a couple of times about Reddish. He thought that Reddish never adjusted to not having the ball in his hands all the time. Reddish was a ball-dominant player in high school and then suddenly he wasn't. So, when he got the ball, he tried too hard to make something happen because he feared that it he gave it up, he might not get it back again.

I tend to agree with this.

My question, though, is this--how much of the responsibility of Reddish "never adjusting" lies with Reddish, and/or how much lies with the coaching staff?