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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post

    1) What happened to 2014 Gamora? Did she vanish when Tony snapped his fingers, along with Thanos and the other interlopers? She doesn't belong in that time. We don't see her on the Guardians ship, and she's not discussed.

    2) Did 2023 Nebula know that Black Widow and Hawkeye would face a sacrificial dilemma to retrieve the soul stone?

    3) Wouldn't 2023 Nebula cease to exist when she kills 2014 Nebula? A mild spoiler, but something analogous happens in The Lego Movie 2, and they even mention sticking to Back to the Future logic.

    Speaking of Back to the Future, it would have been funny if Scott Lang suddenly saw two pine trees outside the window instead of one.
    1) I think you are correct, we do not see 2014 Gamora during the final parts of the battle or its aftermath, but it is implied that she survived (Quill is running a search for her onboard ship when we see the guardians depart). Perhaps Tony's snap eliminated Thanos and those serving him, and Gamora's shift in allegiance protected her from getting dusted?

    2) Nebula knows that Thanos took Gamora with him to retrieve the soul stone and returned with the soul stone, but without Gamora - she says as much when Thanos is restrained on Titan, which sets Quill off, makes him temporarily an idiot, and prevents our heroes from taking the gauntlet from Thanos. I would be interested in watching Endgame again to see whether we are given any indication that Nebula, Hawkeye, or Black Widow understands what must happen to retrieve the soul stone in 2014. Nebula ought to have, but I'm not sure she would have felt inclined to share that with anyone.

    3) They (Stark? Hulk?) expressly stated in Endgame that Back to the Future logic does not apply in the MCU, even laughing at Scott Lang when he brought it up.

    In Back to the Future, you can only travel back and forth along a single timeline, so if you create a branch in the timeline by changing the past, you have to correct that branch in the past in order to return to your original future. This would have posed a huge problem for Endgame, where our heroes had to travel into the past, change it by taking the infinity stones, then return to their original timeline's 2023.

    I think this is how it works in the MCU: as the Ancient One explains it to Hulk when he retrieves the time stone in 2012, changing the past creates a branch in the timeline resulting in an alternate reality, another segment of the multiverse. The original timeline still exists, which eliminates the Back the Future II problem, but there is also an alternate timeline branching from the change in the past that runs parallel to the original timeline. Time travel in the MCU, therefore, is not just traveling along a timeline, but jumping from timeline to timeline. Into the Spiderverse plays with this device to bring in multiple universes' versions of spiderman/pig/gwen, and the current season of Agents of Shield and Spiderman: Far From Home seem to employ it, as well. I will be curious to see how the next phase of the MCU deals with, uses, or distances itself from the multiverse.

  2. #62
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    I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
    Quote Originally Posted by IrishDevil View Post
    1) I think you are correct, we do not see 2014 Gamora during the final parts of the battle or its aftermath, but it is implied that she survived (Quill is running a search for her onboard ship when we see the guardians depart). Perhaps Tony's snap eliminated Thanos and those serving him, and Gamora's shift in allegiance protected her from getting dusted?

    2) Nebula knows that Thanos took Gamora with him to retrieve the soul stone and returned with the soul stone, but without Gamora - she says as much when Thanos is restrained on Titan, which sets Quill off, makes him temporarily an idiot, and prevents our heroes from taking the gauntlet from Thanos. I would be interested in watching Endgame again to see whether we are given any indication that Nebula, Hawkeye, or Black Widow understands what must happen to retrieve the soul stone in 2014. Nebula ought to have, but I'm not sure she would have felt inclined to share that with anyone.

    3) They (Stark? Hulk?) expressly stated in Endgame that Back to the Future logic does not apply in the MCU, even laughing at Scott Lang when he brought it up.

    In Back to the Future, you can only travel back and forth along a single timeline, so if you create a branch in the timeline by changing the past, you have to correct that branch in the past in order to return to your original future. This would have posed a huge problem for Endgame, where our heroes had to travel into the past, change it by taking the infinity stones, then return to their original timeline's 2023.

    I think this is how it works in the MCU: as the Ancient One explains it to Hulk when he retrieves the time stone in 2012, changing the past creates a branch in the timeline resulting in an alternate reality, another segment of the multiverse. The original timeline still exists, which eliminates the Back the Future II problem, but there is also an alternate timeline branching from the change in the past that runs parallel to the original timeline. Time travel in the MCU, therefore, is not just traveling along a timeline, but jumping from timeline to timeline. Into the Spiderverse plays with this device to bring in multiple universes' versions of spiderman/pig/gwen, and the current season of Agents of Shield and Spiderman: Far From Home seem to employ it, as well. I will be curious to see how the next phase of the MCU deals with, uses, or distances itself from the multiverse.
    Peter Quill is responsible for the deaths of Black Widow and Iron Man at the very least. I hope this gets thrown at him at some point. It probably will not because he is such a goofy, likable character.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddevil View Post
    Peter Quill is responsible for the deaths of Black Widow and Iron Man at the very least. I hope this gets thrown at him at some point. It probably will not because he is such a goofy, likable character.
    Kinda true but not really true. Yes, he caused their deaths but that was the ONLY scenario Strange saw where they would defeat Thanos. Quill doesn’t punch Thanos, they never win.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Kinda true but not really true. Yes, he caused their deaths but that was the ONLY scenario Strange saw where they would defeat Thanos. Quill doesn’t punch Thanos, they never win.
    In my book, this doesn't absolve Quill of responsibility for the deaths that followed - which include Vision, too, as well as any number of other combatants from the massive battles in both Infinity War and Endgame. If Quill had been able to shelve his emotions for even 30 seconds on Titan, then the rest of squad likely would have wrested the gauntlet from Thanos, as it was already partially off his hand at the time. Dr. Strange seeing Quill's choice as inevitable in the futures he previewed only means that Quill was always gonna Quill - act like a manchild easily overborne by selfish impulse and emotion. His choices, however in-character, are still his responsibility, even if he makes the same choice 100 time out of 100. He doesn't bear sole responsibility in this case (hello, Thanos and Thor), but it is certainly tough to look past that costly failure to keep calm on Titan without assigning some degree of blame.

    Otherwise, we wind up in an oddly determinist/consequentialist place where no one bears responsibility for the consequences of their actions - including Thanos, who, according to Strange, was always gonna Thanos and act like an overpowered sociopath, yet whose actions ultimately lead to the Avenger's victory - so long as the outcome at some defined point is favorable in the minds of those reviewing events. That would seem like an odd message from a company whose keystone hero's defining ethos is "with great power comes great responsibility." Or, if you prefer the Tom Holland-Civil War remix, "When you can do the kind of things that I can do, but you don't, and bad things happen, they happen because of you."

    To be clear, I love that moment in the movie, as it is completely earned and in-character (unlike some other recent character choices in other fictional settings, so I've heard ), and a wonderful way to ratchet up both pathos and tension as that fight plays out. But I distinctly remember a collective expletive from the audience at that moment, and more than one of those utterances aimed at Quill, not just reacting to the movement of the story. All that said, this may be a matter of personal philosophy at this point, so I imagine YMMV.

    And to your point, Reddevil, as much fun as the guardians movies are, we may see some guardians grapple with the consequences of Infinity War and Endgame in Guardians 3. On the one hand, everyone but Rocket and Nebula missed the last 5 years, but once they are caught up to speed, it would seem realistic for at least Quill to need to process all that happened, a la Stark in Iron Man 3. On the other hand, I don't know that we have seen any the guardians engage in much introspection, so maybe it wouldn't work. I will be interested to see what comes from Guardians 3.

  5. #65
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    It was plainly obvious to me that the Russo Brothers HATED Peter Quill.

    Infinity War: feels inferior to Thor, doesn’t listen to Gamora’s warnings about the Soul Stone, refuses to sacrifice her, “I’m not from Earth, I’m from Missouri”, undermines the team effort on Titan.

    Endgame: Rhodey agrees with Nebula (“Okay, so he’s an idiot”), Nebula explains the relationship to 2014 Gamora (“it was him or the tree”), feels inferior to Thor again.

    Arguably his biggest sin was at the end, having visited 2023 Earth and not taken a lot of digital music for the ship.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddevil View Post
    Peter Quill is responsible for the deaths of Black Widow and Iron Man at the very least. I hope this gets thrown at him at some point.
    I'd love that, but I waited all through Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame for any character to say to Iron Man "Dude, YOU were the one responsible for Ultron, stop acting like it's all of our fault" and it never happened.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishDevil View Post
    In my book, this doesn't absolve Quill of responsibility for the deaths that followed - which include Vision, too, as well as any number of other combatants from the massive battles in both Infinity War and Endgame. If Quill had been able to shelve his emotions for even 30 seconds on Titan, then the rest of squad likely would have wrested the gauntlet from Thanos, as it was already partially off his hand at the time. Dr. Strange seeing Quill's choice as inevitable in the futures he previewed only means that Quill was always gonna Quill - act like a manchild easily overborne by selfish impulse and emotion. His choices, however in-character, are still his responsibility, even if he makes the same choice 100 time out of 100. He doesn't bear sole responsibility in this case (hello, Thanos and Thor), but it is certainly tough to look past that costly failure to keep calm on Titan without assigning some degree of blame.
    I guarantee there were times where Quill did not punch Thanos. He looked at like over 15,000,000 scenarios. Heck, I bet Gamora isn’t even brought up in some of them.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    It was plainly obvious to me that the Russo Brothers HATED Peter Quill.

    Infinity War: feels inferior to Thor, doesn’t listen to Gamora’s warnings about the Soul Stone, refuses to sacrifice her, “I’m not from Earth, I’m from Missouri”, undermines the team effort on Titan.

    Endgame: Rhodey agrees with Nebula (“Okay, so he’s an idiot”), Nebula explains the relationship to 2014 Gamora (“it was him or the tree”), feels inferior to Thor again.

    Arguably his biggest sin was at the end, having visited 2023 Earth and not taken a lot of digital music for the ship.
    But that's Quill in his own movies, too - lovable manchild jerk who gets it wrong before he gets it right. So I guess James Gunn agrees?

    Guardians 1: Quill betrays Yondu and steals the power stone for his own gain. Saves Gamora from Drax, but does so for the promised payday. Gamora says they need to make the power stone safe after it is clear that Ronan/Thanos cannot have it, Quill just wants to sell it to another bidder and run away. Finally encourages team to fight Ronan and ultimately takes the power stone even understanding that it will likely kill him to do so.

    I haven't seen Guardians 2 in a while, but my memory is that he gets seduced by his power as the son of Ego, a celestial, and ignores the warnings of his friends, before realizing Ego's murderous intent. In fact, it is the news that Ego killed his mother that wakes Quill up and prompts him lash out at Ego in grief and pain, foreshadowing his reaction to Gamora's death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    I'd love that, but I waited all through Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame for any character to say to Iron Man "Dude, YOU were the one responsible for Ultron, stop acting like it's all of our fault" and it never happened.
    Well, we did get that moment in Endgame, or at least close to it:

    Tony Stark : What we needed was a suit of armor around the world! Remember that? Whether it impacted our precious freedoms or not, that's what we needed!

    Steve Rogers : Well, that didn't work out, did it?

    A suit of armor around the world was Tony's stated reason for building Ultron.

    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    I guarantee there were times where Quill did not punch Thanos. He looked at like over 15,000,000 scenarios. Heck, I bet Gamora isn’t even brought up in some of them.
    You may be right, but I don't think this changes his responsibility. In fact, if that is true, and Quill in fact had the ability not to punch Thanos, then wouldn't that make his decision in Endgame less excusable?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishDevil View Post
    You may be right, but I don't think this changes his responsibility. In fact, if that is true, and Quill in fact had the ability not to punch Thanos, then wouldn't that make his decision in Endgame less excusable?
    Not really. I would assume in every scenario where he didn’t punch Thanos, the avengers lost. It’s weird to think about but strange said before the initial battle on titan that there was only ONE way to win this thing. Quill has to throw the punch to get the W for 50% of living creatures. Sure a few got sacrificed along the way but trillions were saved.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    I guarantee there were times where Quill did not punch Thanos. He looked at like over 15,000,000 scenarios.
    15,000,000 scenarios is only like 24 yes/no decision points though. Could easily be that Quill is always punching Thanos.

    I wonder if all the people who were not snapped away but died immediately after from plane crashes, etc (I vaguely remember this being a real thing that was depicted at the end of Infinity War) were revived.

  11. #71
    Saw online the idea of blurting out Endgame spoilers at telemarketers. Pure brilliance IMO.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Saw online the idea of blurting out Endgame spoilers at telemarketers. Pure brilliance IMO.
    Because Endgame is killing it internationally, where the telemarketers are located?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    15,000,000 scenarios is only like 24 yes/no decision points though.
    How so?

  14. #74
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    2^24 is 16,777,216. So 24 different binary choices get 16,777,216 possible unique permutations.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    2^24 is 16,777,216. So 24 different binary choices get 16,777,216 possible unique permutations.
    That's your opinion.

    That is the cool thing about math, there's no one right answer.

  16. #76
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    I hope you guys are ready to have a massively belated discussion on this because I'm finally going to see it tomorrow.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I hope you guys are ready to have a massively belated discussion on this because I'm finally going to see it tomorrow.

    Well...?

    I'm probably being petty in another thread.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by YmoBeThere View Post
    Well...?
    Sorry to keep you waiting! I'm sure you've been axiously anticipating my take on the movie

    Ok, here goes. I'm going to list some complaints first, but I did like the movie. It probably doesn't make my top 5 MCU list but it did do a great job wrapping everything up.

    I felt like the first part of the movie was really slow. I think someone else mentioned this as well. The speed with which they killed Thanos was jarring, but ultimately I thought it ended up working well for the film. After that, though, it really didn't engage me until they got to Vormir, at which point it picked up and pretty much everything from that point on was awesome. There were some good bits during the other time travel scenes but even that part felt a little slow to me up until Vormir. As a couple others have noted, Captain Marvel just...felt out of place. The part where she blew up Thanos' ship was super cool. I think the movie would have been better if that were her first appearance...the parts with her talking towards the beginning just felt extremely awkward. Not her fault, but it just wasn't compelling dialog and...didn't add anything. In fact, it didn't make any sense. "I'm too busy dealing with other problems in the universe to be especially involved with your Earth problems...even though your Earth problem happens to actually be arguably the biggest problem in the universe currently." It would have been better if she were either more integrated with the story or if she had fewer appearances.

    The Fat Thor bit was hilarious, I loved the Lebowski line, but I felt like it was a little bit overdone. I was tired of it about part way through the prep for the time travel. I did think the moment he had with his mother was really really good though. Captain America wielding Thor's hammer was awesome as well. I also loved Tony meeting his dad, extremely well done.

    Speaking of Tony...pretty much everything with him fell extremely flat for me except for the scene with his dad, the opening scene where he was recording the message on the spaceship, and the final battle. Unlike some others, I thought his death was pretty much telegraphed, and assumed he would die as soon as they came to get him and it showed him playing with his daughter. I think his death didn't resonate with me emotionally as much as it did for some because I spent the whole movie waiting for it. The way he died was awesome though, just a totally badass ending to the battle. I just didn't connect with the funeral scenes afterward.

    I wanted Banner Hulk to kick some tail, and was somewhat disappointed. I may have missed some scenes during the final battle, but there couldn't have been much. Also felt a bit too much like Shrek to me.

    Hawkeye going on a worldwide killing spree (killing criminals, of course) after his family disappeared was awesome. This movie had some of my favorite stuff from him between that and the scene on Vormir. Opening with his family disappearing was a great choice.

    As far as the time-travel stuff, I didn't have any issues with any of the potential plot holes mentioned there. I honestly wish they hadn't spent so much time joking about it, because it distracted from the actual sense of despair and peril involved, but I thought it all more or less made sense. I like that Steve was Betty's husband all along (if that isn't confirmed already it will be). To the person who asked about him not aging...I assume he isn't actually literally immortal. At some point it wore off and he started aging. Even as an old man, he looked pretty spry for being over 100 years old. The Far From Home trailer pretty much confirms that we are dealing with a multiverse/multiple timeline situation, and it appears that is the main cause of the danger in the movie. I assume time travel won't be used for reasons like "we don't fully understand the dangers, we might ruin things, etc" where it was only justified when there was danger at the universal scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    So in Infinity War, when Thanos recognizes Iron Man and says that he's "cursed with knowledge"... it's because Thanos already knows at that point that he's going to be beheaded by Thor after the Snap, which will eventually be reversed. Right?
    Is there any reason you think that? I think when Thanos said he recognized Iron Man it was more recognizing the type of person he is (extremely intelligent, feels responsible for taking care of the world kind of stuff).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    I'd love that, but I waited all through Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame for any character to say to Iron Man "Dude, YOU were the one responsible for Ultron, stop acting like it's all of our fault" and it never happened.
    I felt like Tony started being really unreasonable about everything during Civil War. He was kind of hard to like in this movie other than a)when he was with his kid, b) when he met his dad, and c) the final battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Kinda true but not really true. Yes, he caused their deaths but that was the ONLY scenario Strange saw where they would defeat Thanos. Quill doesn’t punch Thanos, they never win.
    I love Gaurdians and Quill...but I get so mad every time I watch Infinity War during this scene. It was so absurdly stupid of him that it almost takes me out of the movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Saw online the idea of blurting out Endgame spoilers at telemarketers. Pure brilliance IMO.
    Unrelated, but I'm not a fan of crap like this. Just hang up on them...presumably they aren't exactly working their dream job no reason to make it even more miserable by being a jerk.


    Anyways, that was my somewhat disjointed initial take...it was a lot to process and I probably forgot some important things I had hoped to mention. Ultimately I thought it was a good wrap up to this phase of the MCU and the Infinity War storyline, but I'm not sure it will be as re-watchable as some of the others. Just too painfully slow, and they didn't do a good job maintaining a sense of urgency throughout the slow part.

  19. #79
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    School ended today for my son so we finally got around to watching Endgame.

    I thought IW was superior as they did a better job of spacing out the action.

    As others have already mentioned Thanos seemed way overpowered in this movie as he easily handles a hammer wielding Cap, juiced up Thor, and Ironman.

    The absence of Gamora at the end of the movie was a surprise. It's pretty hard for a green skinned alien to go around unnoticed.

    Cap showing up as an old man was also interesting and of course you have to wonder why his going back to live life didn't screw everything up.

    There were definitely a number of tear jerking moments in this flick. My two favorites were between Clint and Natasha when they were going for the Soul Stone and of course when Cap spies Peggy through the office window.

  20. #80
    I finally got around to seeing it last night and I liked it. I didn't love it, but honestly, given all the stories they had to tie up and all the characters they had to include I can't see how the movie could have been any better. I'm actually really impressed with this movie from a business standpoint: there are about a million things that could have gone wrong with the making of a film like this and as far as I can tell none of them did.

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