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  1. #21
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    The more I sit on this movie, the more frustrated I become. Maybe my expectations were too high, but it just didn't hit the mark for me.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    He went back in time to 1970 and aged in real time from there.

    It was.. wow. My daughter cried all the way home. I'm still processing it. Amazing capstone to this era of Marvel movies.

    Get ready for the New Avengers in 2022-2023ish.
    No, he went back into the 40's (not the old cars when he's dancing with his true love).

    Saw it a 2nd time Sunday night. Two things:

    1) When Captain America went back to return the stones, he also had Thor's hammer. So he set that timeline correct (I didn't notice that the first time).

    2) There's a paradox about Captain America at the end. The time travel rules are clear that what you do in the past creates a new timeline. So there's no way he would have been with Bucky and Sam at the end (as an old person). Only way is if he went into the new timeline, then had a time travel capsule and at the end of his life took it to go back to the one where he had left to return the stones. Only thing that makes sense (and it makes little sense).

    Watching it a second time, I felt the first 30 minutes are a bit slow. The second half of the movie is outstanding. The final battle scenes are epic, and the movie had the most endings since the last Lord of the Rings movie.

    Spiderman will be interesting. Will be an odd world where 50% of the people have been dead for 5 years and now come back. What happens to old relationships? What happens to people who have moved on (and say remarried). How will people get jobs. There are going to be a ton of people (both among the vanished and among those who did not vanish) who will be really upset at what happened. And plenty of them will be blame the Avengers. Should be good stuff!

  3. #23
    What a blast! This might be the most fun I've ever had at a movie. I'm really glad I went to see it Saturday with a packed house, because reacting along with everyone else in the audience was part of the fun. And there were a number of huge applause moments--mostly each step of the final battle, as different characters came back and got their moment to shine. Could have used more of the Black Panther cast--they got huge ovations every time they were on screen but didn't have a whole lot to do.

    It's the kind of movie where a moment could be cheesy fan service--a call back line to an earlier film, seeing an old scene unfold from a new angle, or having all of the female characters team up in the battle--but I didn't care how obvious it was, it was too much fun!

    Really impressed with how the juggled the sheer magnitude of all the past films and characters. It was a very satisfying payoff.

    Lots of folks have already touched on other great aspects, thought I'd wade in to some of the less well received parts:

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    10) There is now a huge huge problem for the MCU... they have a time machine. So, any time something bad happens, they will need to explain why they should not just go back in time to fix it. They really need to come up with some explanation for why time travel cannot be used any more or it could become an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    There's a paradox about Captain America at the end. The time travel rules are clear that what you do in the past creates a new timeline. So there's no way he would have been with Bucky and Sam at the end (as an old person). Only way is if he went into the new timeline, then had a time travel capsule and at the end of his life took it to go back to the one where he had left to return the stones. Only thing that makes sense (and it makes little sense).
    Quote Originally Posted by Native View Post
    I think your point about time travel as a deus ex machina for future films is a good one, and I don't think they did a bang-up job of explaining the rules for time travel in this one. Can time travelers interact with their past selves? It would have been much more difficult to do, but it would have been a cool exercise to see a script wherein the time travel events actually dictate the events of the movies we already saw. Of course, the Harry Potter franchise already did that, so it probably would have been panned as a rip-off.
    Time travel is always a narrative mess. And Harry Potter still faced the same problem: introduced time travel in book 3, realized it was way too effective and would undo any semblance of drama, and then had to come back in book 5 and say "all the time machines are now broken."

    Tell me, how many timelines are there now in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Two? Three? Hundreds?

    I understand why they did it--and from a meta-standpoint, what a way to close this chapter by revisiting your greatest hits . . . and also revisiting Thor 2--but I was always impressed by how tightly interwoven the movies were and how well they worked in a shared timeline and universe. That's all a bit of a mess now.

    Really the only way out of a time-travel paradox is, as others have suggested, the story-line where going back in time causes the very thing you were trying to prevent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Native View Post
    Oh, and I completely understand all the myriad reasons why they didn't/couldn't/shouldn't have done it, but how amazing would it have been had Stan Lee played Old Captain America at the end?
    I've seen fan theories on this, still could be possible. Old cap was still pretty spry for 115 or whatever, he could still have a lot of time left. Maybe after the scene at the lake he goes to revisit each of his friends in their timelines again, but looks more like Stan Lee as he ages. Or, just stick with the GotG2 explanation, where Stan Lee is an agent of the Watchers.

    Quote Originally Posted by tdrake51 View Post
    Fat Thor might be my favorite part of the movie.
    I liked Thor Lebowski for the first 15 minutes, but it kind of grew stale. And it highlights some of the inconsistent arcs for individual characters. At the end of Thor Ragnarok he was finally ready to be king, and understood his people need him. That's all pretty much undone in this film. Same as how the end of Iron Man 3--Tony destroying his suits--is completely undone in the next Avengers movie, when he has his suits again AND is trying to build dozens of autonomous iron men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    The final battle scenes are epic, and the movie had the most endings since the last Lord of the Rings movie.
    Was having a great time but really had to use the bathroom near the end. Every time I thought it was over--nope! Thank goodness the theater warned us ahead of time with dozens of posted signs that there was no end-credits scene.


    Look, this is all in good fun. Even the flaws--dissecting all the ways the time travel doesn't make sense--are enjoyable because these movies have given so much great entertainment. I imagine there'll be some momentum slowing down, and we've probably passed peak-superhero, but if the individual movies are good I'll keep going to see them.

  4. #24
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    The stones stop there from being a paradox. Nothing Steve could do in the past could change the timeline in any meaningful way. I think there us more to the story though. Bucky said he was going to miss him before he left, but he was only going to be gone 5 minutes.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post


    Look, this is all in good fun. Even the flaws--dissecting all the ways the time travel doesn't make sense--are enjoyable because these movies have given so much great entertainment. I imagine there'll be some momentum slowing down, and we've probably passed peak-superhero, but if the individual movies are good I'll keep going to see them.
    I think it is important that they cast well for the next wave.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NashvilleDevil View Post
    I think it is important that they cast well for the next wave.
    I strongly suspect that Cumberbatch, Holland, and Boseman will be the main characters in the next phase of the MCU. All three are already well cast, in my opinion.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I strongly suspect that Cumberbatch, Holland, and Boseman will be the main characters in the next phase of the MCU. All three are already well cast, in my opinion.
    Boseman...I'd love to see him as the next James Bond. That guy is lethal elegance personified. I'm hoping he replaces Captain as the moral heart of the Avengers.

    I'm not sure where Strange and Spidey will fit into things. I can also see Spidey playing a bit of a moral compass (with great power, great responsibility) while looking at problems (and their solutions) with the naivety of youth.

    Strange, hmm...I'm not sure where he will fit. Is it confirmed that he's an official Avenger now? Or does he return to his Sanctorum to focus on his weird mystical mumbo jumbo?

    I wonder what roll Hulk/Banner will play now? I don't see Hawkeye or War Machine doing much.

    I have no idea what this means for Falcon now that he's also Captain America? Are they going to give Captain Falcon America a solo movie to develop his character? He really has just seemed like "that guy in a flying suit" to me. A bit like War Machine, but without the cool Stark tech.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I have no idea what this means for Falcon now that he's also Captain America? Are they going to give Captain Falcon America a solo movie to develop his character? He really has just seemed like "that guy in a flying suit" to me. A bit like War Machine, but without the cool Stark tech.
    Falcon and Winter Soldier are getting a TV series on the Disney+ streaming service. So are Scarlett Witch and Vision (not sure how that is going to work) and there is going to be a Loki and a Hawkeye series as well. Kevin Fiege says he is going to oversee the series and, unlike the Marvel stuff on ABC and Netflix, these shows will tie into the larger MCU and will serve to help set up stuff in the next phase of Marvel movies.

    -Jason "Disney will get all of our money eventually... I plan to sign up for Disney+ just for the Marvel and Star Wars stuff" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  9. #29
    Like others have noted, I need some time to process.

    The opening 15-30 minutes set the table nicely (Hawkeye’s family disappearing through Thor killing Thanos).

    After that, it felt a little slow with a lot of fan service.

    But when it took off in the second half / final third wow did it ever take off.

    I fully expected both Cap and Tony to die.
    I thought the super soldier serum kept Steve Rogers from aging, so I was surprised to see him older.

    Whew. Emotional roller coaster.
    Not afraid to admit I experienced a lot of high emotional moments throughout the film.

    Agree with Jason’s original observations upthread along with others.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post

    2) There's a paradox about Captain America at the end. The time travel rules are clear that what you do in the past creates a new timeline. So there's no way he would have been with Bucky and Sam at the end (as an old person). Only way is if he went into the new timeline, then had a time travel capsule and at the end of his life took it to go back to the one where he had left to return the stones.
    I have a theory about this. I don’t believe Captain America created a paradox. What if Steve was Peggy’s husband from the get go? I rewatched the entire MCU before Endgame. A few things I noticed to support this theory in other films as well as Endgame.
    In Civil War Sharon Carter makes a comment about nobody really knowing Peggy because she had a ton of secrets. There are a couple of pictures shown of Peggy’s kids throughout the MCU but never of her husband. The scene of them in the 70s she has pictures of Steve on her desk why have those if she’s married to someone else? If future Steve is her husband he would know when and when not to show up so as not to be seen and he would know the exact time and date that he was sent into the past. Obviously just a theory but I believe one that’s plausible without creating a paradox.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post

    2) There's a paradox about Captain America at the end. The time travel rules are clear that what you do in the past creates a new timeline. So there's no way he would have been with Bucky and Sam at the end (as an old person). Only way is if he went into the new timeline, then had a time travel capsule and at the end of his life took it to go back to the one where he had left to return the stones. Only thing that makes sense (and it makes little sense).
    Quote Originally Posted by mr shadow 008 View Post
    I have a theory about this. I don’t believe Captain America created a paradox. What if Steve was Peggy’s husband from the get go? I rewatched the entire MCU before Endgame. A few things I noticed to support this theory in other films as well as Endgame.
    In Civil War Sharon Carter makes a comment about nobody really knowing Peggy because she had a ton of secrets. There are a couple of pictures shown of Peggy’s kids throughout the MCU but never of her husband. The scene of them in the 70s she has pictures of Steve on her desk why have those if she’s married to someone else? If future Steve is her husband he would know when and when not to show up so as not to be seen and he would know the exact time and date that he was sent into the past. Obviously just a theory but I believe one that’s plausible without creating a paradox.
    Let me start this by saying I loved the movie and hope to see it again shortly. I'm not sure, but I think I get the time travel rules - if you travel back in time and change the past, the timeline from which you traveled continues unaffected, you just create an alternate timeline/universe from the point you change the past. So returning the stones back to their original points in time was not about preserving the End Game timeline and the victory over Thanos in 2023, it was basically just making good on the promise to the Ancient One in order to get her to give up the time stone in 2012 and not creating alternate universe(s) that were horrible because the time stones were not where they were in the End Game 2023 timeline - mighty considerate of our heroes, but not actually necessary for their victory. Otherwise, if the stones had to be put back in their places because our heroes could not have found them otherwise, we are working with Back to the Future "that future doesn't exist anymore" rules and paradoxes abound.

    As for Cap in the past, what Mr. Shadow lays out is possible, but yeesh. One of my wife's first responses to the movie was, "I would love to see a movie of Cap's last trip through time there at the end!" I disagreed. After the initial excitement of returning the stones, the visual (cars) and audio (music) cues on his return to Peggy place him in the post-war 40s. Steve Rogers is a national celebrity, serial star, and international war hero who just recently died in tragic and heroic fashion. He is instantly recognizable. And if his presence in the past still leads to the End Game 2023 timeline, he cannot make himself known. He has to sit out Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War, and the Gulf Wars, not to mention the events of every other MCU movie. He has to allow Hydra to infiltrate SSR/Shield - where his beloved wife works - and foment chaos in the world. He has to let Bucky endure torment and do horrible things as the Winter Soldier, including killing Howard and Maria Stark. He has to hide under the basement stairs anytime Peggy has a houseguest. In your theory he has kids, but even if the kids were "already part of the past," they and Peggy have to pretend as if Steve is still dead. So, Cap has a few hours of excitement returning the stones, followed by 80ish years of hiding and pretending like awful things aren't happening in the world? Seems like a pretty tough thing for Mr. "We Don't Trade Lives," but the universe is at stake, so maybe. Or maybe he does not pretend, but works behind the scenes, and that work is also "already part of the past"?

    One problem is that Cap does not know what is and is not part of the past already. If he has kids, will he still be in the End Game 2023 timeline? If he helps mitigate the threats of Hydra, Bucky, nuclear annihilation, and countless wars, how does he know he will still be able to meet Sam and Bucky, or even know that Thanos will not prevail? This is the function of the photographs from the future in Back to the Future, and Steve lacks a similar canary for his time travel coal mine. The only way to know the timeline he enters to return the stones and Thor's hammer leads to End Game 2023 is to do nothing in the past - which he clearly does not do, as he at least bought a ring

    I don't think Cap went back into the past without a paradox/alternate timeline. I think Steve's rekindling with Peggy indicates that Old Cap is from an alternate timeline as Udaman suggests, an idea that pairs nicely with the Spiderverse (though I don't know how Spiderverse and the MCU are connected, if at all), and more importantly, certain elements of the forthcoming Agents of Shield season that we have seen in previews. Another point in favor of multiverse Old Cap - where did the shield come from that Old Cap gives to Sam at the end? IIRC, the shield from End Game 2023 was in Stark's possession after Civil War, was given back to Cap at the beginning of End Game, and was broken by Thanos in the final battle. If Old Cap is not from an alternate timeline, where does the shield come from?

    A different set of rabbit-hole questions that the multiverse train of thought raises (but does NOT beg, because words have meaning, dagnabbit!): is the infinity gauntlet only capable of affecting its own universe? We were told that it has some limitations - Professor Hulk could not bring Black Widow back with his un-snappening - but the limitations are less than clear. If Thanos had been aware of alternate timelines/the multiverse, could he have snapped half of life in ALL universes out of existence? And if so, even though Infinity War/End Game's Thanos did not, what is to stop one of the countless other incarnations of Thanos in the multiverse from doing so? I assume the gauntlet is incapable of affecting multiple universes in order not to break the fictional frame, but if that is true, what is to stop a Thanos from a timeline in which he assembles the guantlet from moving between alternate timelines and carrying on his 50%ing? That may sound far-fetched, but the End Game 2023 timeline was only two changes away from a scenario where that was possible - Thanos succeeds in claiming the gauntlet after traveling from 2014, and Thanos does not destroy the van time machine in the battle.

    In any event, I look forward to seeing the movie again soon and will be paying particular attention to the time travel rules to see if it hints at what phase 4 could hold.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by IrishDevil View Post
    As for Cap in the past, what Mr. Shadow lays out is possible, but yeesh. One of my wife's first responses to the movie was, "I would love to see a movie of Cap's last trip through time there at the end!" I disagreed. After the initial excitement of returning the stones, the visual (cars) and audio (music) cues on his return to Peggy place him in the post-war 40s. Steve Rogers is a national celebrity, serial star, and international war hero who just recently died in tragic and heroic fashion. He is instantly recognizable. And if his presence in the past still leads to the End Game 2023 timeline, he cannot make himself known. He has to sit out Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War, and the Gulf Wars, not to mention the events of every other MCU movie. He has to allow Hydra to infiltrate SSR/Shield - where his beloved wife works - and foment chaos in the world. He has to let Bucky endure torment and do horrible things as the Winter Soldier, including killing Howard and Maria Stark. He has to hide under the basement stairs anytime Peggy has a houseguest. In your theory he has kids, but even if the kids were "already part of the past," they and Peggy have to pretend as if Steve is still dead. So, Cap has a few hours of excitement returning the stones, followed by 80ish years of hiding and pretending like awful things aren't happening in the world? Seems like a pretty tough thing for Mr. "We Don't Trade Lives," but the universe is at stake, so maybe. Or maybe he does not pretend, but works behind the scenes, and that work is also "already part of the past"?
    Maybe he wore glasses and combed his hair a little differently. Works for Superman.

    But yea, the idea of sitting out the JFK Assassination, the Cuban Missle Crisis, 9/11 - that'd be hard. Not to mention the Hydra infilitration etc. But I like the idea that Steve was working covertly to stop various crises around the world, and those were just the ones that he couldn't quite prevent. As in, maybe he stopped 100 other things from happening that otherwise would've. Or maybe some of the events he didn't stop would have been even worse without his intervention.

    It's a fun game to play. In the end it really doesn't make sense but it's fun to pull at the ball of yarn.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    A few random thoughts...


    12) No post-credit scene. Perfect! I was terrified they would put something in there and this movie had tied things up so perfectly. I am glad they made the smart choice of not teasing Far From Home or anything else.

    -Jason "more later..." Evans

    Do we warn others in a non-spoiler thread so they don't waste 5-10 minutes of their lives? We've been trained for 20 some movies to stay, so we stayed.


    Quote Originally Posted by BLPOG View Post
    A lot of grown men were crying in my theater. A lot.

    ...
    I was NOT crying, I have allergies!


    I enjoyed it quite a bit. The best of the bunch. Tremendous affection for the characters and their personal journeys. They didn't just bring in very good (some nearly great) actors, Marvel actually gave the characters (and the audience) something to care about and dialog through which to express themselves. Makes me even more frustrated when I consider the mess that Star Wars has become.


    There is a reason that time travel is called a paradox. The Avengers' use of time travel movies in their "discussions" was tremendous. The five year gap with the reappearance of the missing 1/2 of the population would be an unimaginable burden. The infrastructure would collapse. At some point popcorn logic must take over.

  14. #34
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    I'm guessing the stand alone Black Widow movie won't pick up from where End Game leaves off? Kind of expected her to survive to be in her next movie.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I'm guessing the stand alone Black Widow movie won't pick up from where End Game leaves off? Kind of expected her to survive to be in her next movie.
    This was one of the more interesting twists of Endgame. I thought for sure Cap and one other person would end up going for the Soul stone, and Cap would have to sacrifice himself, and we would get a Cap / Red Skull reunion.

    This would have robbed us of Captain America being worthy (and Thor being excited, not jealous) of Thor’s hammer.

  16. #36
    1. If Age of Ultron didn’t exist, would the other 3 Avengers movies compete with the original Star Wars as the best trilogy of all time?

    2. Did Okoye’s seemingly meaningless comment about an earthquake tease a villain for Black Panther 2?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    1. If Age of Ultron didn’t exist, would the other 3 Avengers movies compete with the original Star Wars as the best trilogy of all time?

    2. Did Okoye’s seemingly meaningless comment about an earthquake tease a villain for Black Panther 2?
    I'm not sure SW is the best trilogy of all time. Toy Story and LoTR both come to mind.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by luburch View Post
    I'm not sure SW is the best trilogy of all time. Toy Story and LoTR both come to mind.
    Also under consideration:

    Batman Begins, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Returns

    Mad Max, Road Warrior, Beyond Thunderdome

    Spiderman 1, 2, and 3

    Back to the Future 1, 2, & 3

    Terminator 1, 2, and 3

    Godfather 1, 2, and 3

    -Jason "Toy Story or LOTR probably win this contest because they each have an excellent ending while all the others got pretty weak by the time we get to entry #3" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Also under consideration:

    Batman Begins, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Returns

    Mad Max, Road Warrior, Beyond Thunderdome

    Spiderman 1, 2, and 3

    Back to the Future 1, 2, & 3

    Terminator 1, 2, and 3

    Godfather 1, 2, and 3

    -Jason "Toy Story or LOTR probably win this contest because they each have an excellent ending while all the others got pretty weak by the time we get to entry #3" Evans
    Yeah, the third entry likely dooms the Godfather, Terminator, and Spiderman trilogies, if not Back to the Future, as well. Indy has not been mentioned, but I have to think that it, too falls short, though likely on the Temple of Doom, not the Last Crusade. I can't speak to the Mad Max trilogy, but the Dark Knight Rises, while weaker than the first two Nolan Batmans (Batmen?), may still be competitive with Return of the Jedi, which was not without its flaws (hello, Ewoks).

    I would think that the forthcoming Toy Story 4 takes it out of the running in a trilogy contest. Some might also argue that Indy is also DQ'd for the same reason, but those people are crazy, as the Last Crusade was clearly the last Indy movie and no one remembers anything to the contrary because Indiana Jones never encountered Soviets, Crystal Skulls, or anyone named Mutt. Right? Right.

    So SW Ep. 4-6, LOTR, and Dark Knight is the frame of comparison in my mind, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. The epic sweep, massive story, huge stakes, and loaded cast of the Avengers movies were all made possible by a decade of movies leading up to and supporting them. What would the Avengers movies look like if they had to include not only the conflict with Thanos, but also the salient content of the entire MCU establishing that conflict into the 8-10 hours of the Avengers movies only? People grouse about the lead-in history lesson of LOTR - how much more of that would have been necessary to set up the mythology, characters, and stakes of the Avengers movies? Even disregarding Age of Ultron, I don't think it does trilogies justice to compare them with the MCU.

    Doesn't make any of the movies less fun, though Relatedly, I am excited to see whether Rise of Skywalker can vault SW Ep 7-9 into the conversation - I would think Ep 9 has to be better than solid to belong among the top trilogies.

    As to the earthquake in Wakanda - Could be a villain intro, or could be a small reference to some upcoming event in Agents of Shield with Daisy Johnson/Quake. Looking forward to seeing what comes of it, though, since it is Chekov's earthquake at this point, isn't it?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Also under consideration:

    Batman Begins, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Returns

    Mad Max, Road Warrior, Beyond Thunderdome

    Spiderman 1, 2, and 3

    Back to the Future 1, 2, & 3

    Terminator 1, 2, and 3

    Godfather 1, 2, and 3

    -Jason "Toy Story or LOTR probably win this contest because they each have an excellent ending while all the others got pretty weak by the time we get to entry #3" Evans
    I'll throw in the Before Sunrise trilogy, even though obviously those movies are not operating on the same scale. The Alien trilogy also deserves mention, but is similar to some of yours, in that the 3rd entry is significantly weaker than the first two movies.

    I thought Endgame was excellent. The Avengers Assemble scene, and all the moments immediately before and after, was maybe the most epic 30-60 seconds ever put on screen.

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