Is Duke program now just like Calipari 2.0?

[CDu]

I dispute that there is such a thing as a "degree in jazz performance". I am not an expert in what degrees there are in music … but I would suppose that they involve learning a lot of music theory, which is not the simplest of things to learn. There are music conservatories where one can learn that sort of thing, so I have no idea what a college would provide over and above that. I am not the one that tried to compare music degrees to sports degrees, I think that is a digression. My opinion is that there are valid sports degrees as well as valid music degrees, but while performance levels of playing sports or music might be some small part of such a degree, it is not close to the full component. And, once again, I am positing that most OADs have no intention of returning to get any kind of degree, and thus their participation in a college sport does not meet the intent of what a college sport should be (again, in my opinion). I do not know how to validate such a claim, maybe there are statistics on this available somewhere.

There are absolutely degrees in music performance. And various other performing arts. And I don’t think the performance part of those performing arts degrees is a small part of those degree programs.

As such, why aren’t there similar degree tracks for athletes? There are TONS of courses that could be taught. In football, you could have classes on offensive and defensive schemes that would prepare them for their teams AND for careers in coaching. There could be courses on optimizing nutrition, physical training routines, and practice scheduling. Game theory could be taught with a focus on play calling. They could teach play development. Program management. Probably countless others. And you know what? With the exception of the last few, these are all things they are already doing but getting zero credit for, and are all extremely academic.

You talk about one and dones not being a part of the academic mission, but one could argue that this is because, for whatever reason, schools just haven’t viewed how much study and academic rigor are involved in sports - it just isn’t a perspective that folks at the head of universities have considered before.

[EKU1969]

Perhaps it’s because sports are perceived as games. All sports, high school, college, and pro are Big Business and have been for some time. I, for one, do not see a reversal of this any time soon. We either accept it, fight it, or look to something else for our entertainment needs. And, therefore, sports should be a discipline unto its own.

[MartinNessley]

I dispute that there is such a thing as a "degree in jazz performance". I am not an expert in what degrees there are in music … but I would suppose that they involve learning a lot of music theory, which is not the simplest of things to learn. There are music conservatories where one can learn that sort of thing, so I have no idea what a college would provide over and above that. I am not the one that tried to compare music degrees to sports degrees, I think that is a digression. My opinion is that there are valid sports degrees as well as valid music degrees, but while performance levels of playing sports or music might be some small part of such a degree, it is not close to the full component. And, once again, I am positing that most OADs have no intention of returning to get any kind of degree, and thus their participation in a college sport does not meet the intent of what a college sport should be (again, in my opinion). I do not know how to validate such a claim, maybe there are statistics on this available somewhere.

How in the world can you not be aware of music performance degrees? Maybe you should google before you dispute.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Perhaps it’s because sports are perceived as games. All sports, high school, college, and pro are Big Business and have been for some time. I.

Not all sports....some sports are "big charities" in college and high school, being supported by monies those sports cannot possibly produce. May be fees, taxes, or profits from other sports, but most sports in HS and college are not big business at all.

[75Crazie]

There are absolutely degrees in music performance. And various other performing arts. And I don’t think the performance part of those performing arts degrees is a small part of those degree programs.
...
You talk about one and dones not being a part of the academic mission, but one could argue that this is because, for whatever reason, schools just haven’t viewed how much study and academic rigor are involved in sports - it just isn’t a perspective that folks at the head of universities have considered before.

OK, I stand corrected regarding musical performance degrees … I allowed a digression to arrest my focus for a bit. I'd like to see statistics regarding the percentage of musical performance degree candidates who leave after one or two years because of professional opportunities vs the percentage of basketball athletes who leave after one year because of professional opportunities.

I think your last statement is right on. Nobody looks at the rigor of academic studies for P5 school basketball and football athletes because nobody really wants to know; it is inconvenient to many to know the truth of that. If you do not agree, then I'd like an explanation of the last 25 years at the cesspool down the road. While I think uNC is unique in the degree to which they took a professional disinterest in that academic rigor, I do not for a second believe they are the least bit unique in the fact that the disinterest occurs.

[Indoor66]

Maybe the academic discussion deserves a separate thread on the Office Topic board.

[CDu]

OK, I stand corrected regarding musical performance degrees … I allowed a digression to arrest my focus for a bit. I'd like to see statistics regarding the percentage of musical performance degree candidates who leave after one or two years because of professional opportunities vs the percentage of basketball athletes who leave after one year because of professional opportunities.

I think your last statement is right on. Nobody looks at the rigor of academic studies for P5 school basketball and football athletes because nobody really wants to know; it is inconvenient to many to know the truth of that. If you do not agree, then I'd like an explanation of the last 25 years at the cesspool down the road. While I think uNC is unique in the degree to which they took a professional disinterest in that academic rigor, I do not for a second believe they are the least bit unique in the fact that the disinterest occurs.

I think you misunderstood my last paragraph entirely. I was saying that athletes are subjected to a TON of academic rigor. It just isn’t the academic rigor that you and I are used to. They spend countless hours studying film, memorizing playbooks, signals, etc, to the degree necessary to make split-second decisions. It is arguably every bit as challenging as studying biology or sociology. Just different. And because it is different, it has unfortunately not been recognized as such by school presidents and the general public.

[EKU1969]

Not all sports...some sports are "big charities" in college and high school, being supported by monies those sports cannot possibly produce. May be fees, taxes, or profits from other sports, but most sports in HS and college are not big business at all.

Your second sentence makes my point...revenue sports generate enough money to keep other sports going, whether through direct payments or having donors give to all sports. As you like to say, “They are all related😉”

[clinresga]

An education in "playing" sports? No, I am most definitely of the opinion that that is not a valid college program, and is instead a poor justification for the behavior of modern collegiate sports programs. What would a bachelor degree in playing football be called, specifically? Now, an education in "teaching" sports, or music, or …? Sure, I can get that. But still this argument is specious, because my contention is that OADs have, for the most part, no interest at all in a college degree in any program … not even sports administration. I grant that there are exceptions, but I believe (without any definitive proof) that my contention is largely correct.

What a wonderful example of circular reasoning. You argue that playing (a loaded word, really) sports is not a legitimate academic enterprise, and therefore no degree should be offered. You then "prove" that athletes are not academically serious students because they are not pursuing a degree.

And yes, I get it that for you, academics is narrowly defined as "book learning." One that would exclude, for example, music performance. The proud graduates holding degrees in performance from the Juilliard School ("The Diploma program is a three-year program of study for the few very gifted undergraduate musicians in keyboard, orchestral instruments, and voice, who for personal or professional reasons must pursue a non-degree course of study concentrating almost exclusively on performance") would beg to differ.

If you accept a broader definition of what an academic pursuit can be, one that encompasses playing sports at the highest level, then OADs are indeed pursuing a degree. And I'd argue that whether it takes one year or four, a student who ends up in the NBA would be considered to have satisfied the graduation requirements of that performing sports degree, indeed, graduating summa cum laude.

You will likely then argue that a sports performance degree program should be by nature at a specialized "conservatory" like Julliard rather than a mainstream college like Duke. And I'd reply that as long as Duke wants to enroll these highly talented kids in order to gain the enormous institutional benefits of having a highly visible program like Duke Basketball, then Duke must accept the responsibility to provide these kids with a proper opportunity to pursue their chosen profession.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What a wonderful example of circular reasoning. You argue that playing (a loaded word, really) sports is not a legitimate academic enterprise, and therefore no degree should be offered. You then "prove" that athletes are not academically serious students because they are not pursuing a degree.

And yes, I get it that for you, academics is narrowly defined as "book learning." One that would exclude, for example, music performance. The proud graduates holding degrees in performance from the Juilliard School ("The Diploma program is a three-year program of study for the few very gifted undergraduate musicians in keyboard, orchestral instruments, and voice, who for personal or professional reasons must pursue a non-degree course of study concentrating almost exclusively on performance") would beg to differ.

If you accept a broader definition of what an academic pursuit can be, one that encompasses playing sports at the highest level, then OADs are indeed pursuing a degree. And I'd argue that whether it takes one year or four, a student who ends up in the NBA would be considered to have satisfied the graduation requirements of that performing sports degree, indeed, graduating summa cum laude.

You will likely then argue that a sports performance degree program should be by nature at a specialized "conservatory" like Julliard rather than a mainstream college like Duke. And I'd reply that as long as Duke wants to enroll these highly talented kids in order to gain the enormous institutional benefits of having a highly visible program like Duke Basketball, then Duke must accept the responsibility to provide these kids with a proper opportunity to pursue their chosen profession.

Should Duke also, as an institution of higher learning, open their doors to trade school students? Teach machining classes, kitchen science classes, and woodworking?

I am in no way disparaging these pursuits, but to suggest Duke ought to be all things to all students is absurd.

[clinresga]

Should Duke also, as an institution of higher learning, open their doors to trade school students? Teach machining classes, kitchen science classes, and woodworking?

I am in no way disparaging these pursuits, but to suggest Duke ought to be all things to all students is absurd.

If Duke started touting a CIA-level cooking program, featuring an on-campus Michelin ** restaurant, and flooding social media with references to the "cooking brotherhood" of chefs, somms, and GM's who trained at Duke and now run the best restaurants in the world, then yeah, Duke should be obligated to provide those students with an opportunity to get culinary degrees.

Of course Duke cannot and should not be all things to all people. But it was Duke's decision to go all in on hoops as part of the university's identity. And by doing so, they gain an obligation to provide those students with an "academic" path forward.

[CDu]

I am in no way disparaging these pursuits, but to suggest Duke ought to be all things to all students is absurd.

I don't think he or she was making the argument that Duke ought to be all things to all students. That seems like a kind of unfair and tangential counterargument to be making here.

I think the argument is more that athletes are subjected to a brutal academic load. They have the academic requirements of their sport and desired profession (and those are absolutely brutal in and of themselves), PLUS the academic requirements of an undergraduate student. And the argument is that if people are willing to consider performing arts as degree programs, why can't sports be considered a performance degree program as well?

[clinresga]

I don't think he or she was making the argument that Duke ought to be all things to all students. That seems like a kind of unfair and tangential counterargument to be making here.

I think the argument is more that athletes are subjected to a brutal academic load. They have the academic requirements of their sport and desired profession (and those are absolutely brutal in and of themselves), PLUS the academic requirements of an undergraduate student. And the argument is that if people are willing to consider performing arts as degree programs, why can't sports be considered a performance degree program as well?

Exactly. It's a novel notion, and raises serious qualms (like, what the Cheats did would have been OK--but it was not, because those were NOT the rules during the many years they cheated). But it is intellectually more honest when we admit that a very small number of students may be talented enough that playing their chosen sport can be their sole "academic" pursuit. Just like a vanishingly small number of students are accepted into Julliard to study performance only. And like OADs, they are the ones who end up soloing with the NY Philharmonic. If I were Zion, I'd be trying to eat, drink, and breathe basketball, 24/7, have a fabulous career in the Association, and then exercise his other academic talents a la LaBron. If Duke wants him, Duke should accept this premise.

[richardjackson199]

Maybe Calipari 2.0 means Calipari wants his players to stay at least 2.0 years before leaving. Herro may return? Keldon Johnson may return? Hagans is returning. Richards is returning again. Before the season even guys like EJ Montgomery probably thought they were OAD.

It's like Calipari has now sold his studs on the idea that they're all going to be the next PJ Washington. He's also bringing in more grad transfers. I think he's quietly trying to have older teams. He's correctly assuming that too many freshmen OAD's usually won't get it done. But he still wants to appear to be a prime location for top OAD studs.

Cal is slimy, but smart. But I really hope Johnson and Herro leave. I think they will.

[Dukehk]

Maybe Calipari 2.0 means Calipari wants his players to stay at least 2.0 years before leaving. Herro may return? Keldon Johnson may return? Hagans is returning. Richards is returning again. Before the season even guys like EJ Montgomery probably thought they were OAD.

It's like Calipari has now sold his studs on the idea that they're all going to be the next PJ Washington. He's also bringing in more grad transfers. I think he's quietly trying to have older teams. He's correctly assuming that too many freshmen OAD's usually won't get it done. But he still wants to appear to be a prime location for top OAD studs.

Cal is slimy, but smart. But I really hope Johnson and Herro leave. I think they will.

Johnson is projected in the lottery so he is gone.

Herro is also rising up the draft board. Currently he is a first round lock and likely to be mid-late pick. I don't think anyone would turn that down. I would be very surprised if he did.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Maybe Calipari 2.0 means Calipari wants his players to stay at least 2.0 years before leaving. Herro may return? Keldon Johnson may return? Hagans is returning. Richards is returning again. Before the season even guys like EJ Montgomery probably thought they were OAD.

It's like Calipari has now sold his studs on the idea that they're all going to be the next PJ Washington. He's also bringing in more grad transfers. I think he's quietly trying to have older teams. He's correctly assuming that too many freshmen OAD's usually won't get it done. But he still wants to appear to be a prime location for top OAD studs.

Cal is slimy, but smart. But I really hope Johnson and Herro leave. I think they will.

Grad transfers are also a good way to take a flier on guys and fill holes without being on the hook for (potentially) four years of a scholarship if someone busts. It's the equivalent of short contracts in professional sports. It reduces risk.

[DukeTrinity11]

Maybe Calipari 2.0 means Calipari wants his players to stay at least 2.0 years before leaving. Herro may return? Keldon Johnson may return? Hagans is returning. Richards is returning again. Before the season even guys like EJ Montgomery probably thought they were OAD.

It's like Calipari has now sold his studs on the idea that they're all going to be the next PJ Washington. He's also bringing in more grad transfers. I think he's quietly trying to have older teams. He's correctly assuming that too many freshmen OAD's usually won't get it done. But he still wants to appear to be a prime location for top OAD studs.

Cal is slimy, but smart. But I really hope Johnson and Herro leave. I think they will.

Once again for the millionth time, freshman OADs do great in the NCAAT.

2010 Wall and Cousins: Elite 8
2012 Teague, Davis and MKG: National Title
2014 Randle and Young: Title Game
2015 Towns, Booker and Lyles: Final 4
2015 Jones, Winslow and Okafor: National Title
2017 Tatum and Giles: 2nd Round (Giles wasn't really a OAD talent at Duke since he was injured)
2017 Fox, Bam and Monk: Elite 8
2018 SGA and Knox: Sweet 16
2018 Bagley and Carter: Elite 8
2019 Zion, Barrett and Reddish: Elite 8
2019 Herro and Johnson: Elite 8

So of 11 teams anchored by multiple freshmen who declared for the draft and were 1st Rounders: 2 Titles, 2 Final 4s, 5 Elite 8s, 1 Sweet 16 and 1 2nd Round Appearance

I'd rather get the most top end talent and just roll the balls out rather than get bottom top 100 players and have them coached up magnificently.

OAD is a tremendous success.

[richardjackson199]

Once again for the millionth time, freshman OADs do great in the NCAAT.

2010 Wall and Cousins: Elite 8
2012 Teague, Davis and MKG: National Title
2014 Randle and Young: Title Game
2015 Towns, Booker and Lyles: Final 4
2015 Jones, Winslow and Okafor: National Title
2017 Tatum and Giles: 2nd Round (Giles wasn't really a OAD talent at Duke since he was injured)
2017 Fox, Bam and Monk: Elite 8
2018 SGA and Knox: Sweet 16
2018 Bagley and Carter: Elite 8
2019 Zion, Barrett and Reddish: Elite 8
2019 Herro and Johnson: Elite 8

So of 11 teams anchored by multiple freshmen who declared for the draft and were 1st Rounders: 2 Titles, 2 Final 4s, 5 Elite 8s, 1 Sweet 16 and 1 2nd Round Appearance

I'd rather get the most top end talent and just roll the balls out rather than get bottom top 100 players and have them coached up magnificently.

OAD is a tremendous success.

Condescend much?

I was just making a point that Calipari who used to celebrate how many OAD's he had now seems to be having a lot of highly ranked guys stay a little longer, a la Roy. I don't care how right you think you are or how wrong you think I am. You don't score points by being rude.

[frb]

Grad transfers are also a good way to take a flier on guys and fill holes without being on the hook for (potentially) four years of a scholarship if someone busts. It's the equivalent of short contracts in professional sports. It reduces risk.

100%. basically no risk. all upside. i like those kind of bets.