Is Duke program now just like Calipari 2.0?

[kybluedevil]

Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about Tre's return. But let's be honest. Coach K and Calipari have similar recruiting goals: Get the best players for one year. Hope the team meshes from November-March. Reload, Repeat, Rinse, etc.

It is debatable if this tactic has been effective. Sure, we have had some players not develop as upper classemen. And Luke Kennard left earlier than most have hoped. But everything I found detestable in what Calipari did at Kentucky has now been increasingly found in Durham. Best example: last year's team. We were lucky to have Grayso Allen. And yes, we were two bounces away from back-to-back final Fours. And I agree it's hard to turn away recruits like Zion and RJ when they come knocking on your door.

But surely there has to be a middle ground from the unbearable 2008-2009 Duke team, and the one-and-done teams (2011-present). Just look at Sparty, UNC, and UVA.


What does it say that the recent UVA & UNC teams bear more in similarity to the "old" Duke teams than what Duke is fielding these days?
Duke has turned into another factory farm for the NBA. Years after Coach K avowed he would "never" succumb to this.

Let's hope things turn around soon.

[proelitedota]

We didn't change. The players did.

Nolan, Singler, Henderson would all be one or two n dones in this era of Duke basketball.

[Steven43]

Uh oh. Here comes trouble. I’m not even going to touch this right now. By the way, could you please post the quote or interview where Coach K “avowed he would never succumb to this”?

[-jk]

Both are reacting to what the NBA is handing them. That's a given; they're both really good.

I think K is handling it better.

K doesn't chase players off, but actually welcomes marginal first rounders back. With open arms!

Calipari's won one NCAA, and missed it entirely another time. K's won two in the last 10 years (3 in 20); one with OaD players and one without, and hasn't missed in decades.

UVa? It's UVa's first final four in decades. (We have baggage so I won't emphasize last year - we came close enough in '86.) It's not easy for anyone, no matter how good a program they have.

Izzo? He has a reputation, but really hasn't covered.

unc cheated so aggressively for decades (and I'm absolutely sure they still do, just better; it's built into their "Way"), that they don't count in any way, shape, or form.

Nova? They would be a more interesting question...

-jk

[freshmanjs]

Both are reacting to what the NBA is handing them. That's a given; they're both really good.

I think K is handling it better.

K doesn't chase players off, but actually welcomes marginal first rounders back. With open arms!

Calipari's won one NCAA, and missed it entirely another time. K's won two in the last 10 years (3 in 20); one with OaD players and one without, and hasn't missed in decades.

UVa? It's UVa's first final four in decades. (We have baggage so I won't emphasize last year - we came close enough in '86.) It's not easy for anyone, no matter how good a program they have.

Izzo? He has a reputation, but really hasn't covered.

unc cheated so aggressively for decades (and I'm absolutely sure they still do, just better; it's built into their "Way"), that they don't count in any way, shape, or form.

Nova? They would be a more interesting question...

-jk

Agree, although to be fair, Cal's miss happened when Noel had a season ending injury. If Brandon Ingram had such an injury in 2016, there's a good chance we would have similarly missed. Cal's tournament results have been outstanding at KY (as K's have been at Duke).

[Owen Meany]

But surely there has to be a middle ground from the unbearable 2008-2009 Duke team, and the one-and-done teams (2011-present). Just look at Sparty, UNC, and UVA.


What does it say that the recent UVA & UNC teams bear more in similarity to the "old" Duke teams than what Duke is fielding these days?
Duke has turned into another factory farm for the NBA. Years after Coach K avowed he would "never" succumb to this.

Let's hope things turn around soon.

UNC recruited Okafor, Winslow, Jones, Rivers, Kyrie, Parker, Ingram, Bagley, Carter, Trent, Williamson, Barrett, and Reddish (I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive). The only Duke OAD and can think of they didn't recruited was Duval. They just missed out on these players, as Roy Williams has explicitly stated. They have already had 2 players declare this year after one season. They had one the year before last as well. They are all in on Cole Anthony for next year who will certainly be OAD.

[JetpackJesus]

What does it say that the recent UVA & UNC teams bear more in similarity to the "old" Duke teams than what Duke is fielding these days?

That Coach K is better at recruiting and developing players?

Roy had two OAD's this year--despite his best efforts to hold one of those players back--to Duke's (probably) three, and Roy offered at least one of Duke OAD's. He would have several more OAD's over the years if he were better at developing his top recruits or better at landing the players he recruits.

[Dukehky]

Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about Tre's return. But let's be honest. Coach K and Calipari have similar recruiting goals: Get the best players for one year. Hope the team meshes from November-March. Reload, Repeat, Rinse, etc.

It is debatable if this tactic has been effective. Sure, we have had some players not develop as upper classemen. And Luke Kennard left earlier than most have hoped. But everything I found detestable in what Calipari did at Kentucky has now been increasingly found in Durham. Best example: last year's team. We were lucky to have Grayso Allen. And yes, we were two bounces away from back-to-back final Fours. And I agree it's hard to turn away recruits like Zion and RJ when they come knocking on your door.

But surely there has to be a middle ground from the unbearable 2008-2009 Duke team, and the one-and-done teams (2011-present). Just look at Sparty, UNC, and UVA.


What does it say that the recent UVA & UNC teams bear more in similarity to the "old" Duke teams than what Duke is fielding these days?
Duke has turned into another factory farm for the NBA. Years after Coach K avowed he would "never" succumb to this.

Let's hope things turn around soon.

I am so tired of this. Duke has been the best program of the decade. There are 2 titles with 2 completely different ways of doing things. If Kyrie stays healthy, there's also likely a back to back championship in there.

UNC had a phenomenal two year run with starting line-ups packed with seniors who were mcdonalds all Americans. Don't let the fact that they beat us twice this year when we didn't have our best player cloud your mind.


UVA lost to a 16 seed last year and is currently enjoying their first run to the Final Four since Ralph Sampson.

MSU hasn't won a title since 2000.

Yes I'm happy we're not any of those teams.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Who cares if K and Calipari have the same goals? Every coach in the country has the same goal, to recruit good players and win the national title. Get over your sensibilities because YOU want to see kids stay at Duke for longer and develop. As long as the kids who come in play hard and try their best on and off the court, they can do what they want after their freshman year. I'm sorry that what you would prefer the program to look like isn't how it is currently going.

I would not trade my years watching Marvin Bagley, Zion or RJ for anything. They gave it everything they had. Who gives a S*** that they happened to be recruits Calipari also wanted and stayed one year.

Shut this thread down and any other threads that resemble them.

Also, "Old Duke" teams were loaded with talent. Look at 2001, DUnleavy, Boozer, Williams, Battier, Duhon? Are you freaking kidding me, every one of them was a McD's AA who stayed 4 years. Let's go 06, Shelden, JJ, Dockery, McRoberts, Paulus, Nelson... All McDonalds all Americans who stayed more than one year.

It's not K who has changed, it is college basketball and the players who play it. I mean, sure, if we want to keep kids who stay all 4 years, we can recruit in the 30s and 40s, and then we'd suck. Then everyone would complain about us not getting talent.

I'll take the talent and trust K to sort it all out. It's freaking hard to win a national championship, it's hard to win an ACC regular season championship, especially with the unbalanced schedules and the fact that we get UNC and UVA nearly every year.

FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT!

[CameronCrazy'11]

I don't think the recruiting strategy has actually changed that much. Duke has always gone after the best players. They just weren't landing the top kids every year in the late 2000's like they are now, and as a result players tended to stay longer. Now, because of olympics, national championships, Duke Blue Planet, or whatever the reason is, they are landing top 5 guys consistently.

And to be honest, I don't think there's any program out there that could be landing one-and-dones like Duke does every year, but chooses not to. There are programs that have one-and-done players, programs that target those kids but don't sign them, and programs that don't even try because they wouldn't be considered.

[CDu]

Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about Tre's return. But let's be honest. Coach K and Calipari have similar recruiting goals: Get the best players for one year. Hope the team meshes from November-March. Reload, Repeat, Rinse, etc.

It is debatable if this tactic has been effective. Sure, we have had some players not develop as upper classemen. And Luke Kennard left earlier than most have hoped. But everything I found detestable in what Calipari did at Kentucky has now been increasingly found in Durham. Best example: last year's team. We were lucky to have Grayso Allen. And yes, we were two bounces away from back-to-back final Fours. And I agree it's hard to turn away recruits like Zion and RJ when they come knocking on your door.

But surely there has to be a middle ground from the unbearable 2008-2009 Duke team, and the one-and-done teams (2011-present). Just look at Sparty, UNC, and UVA.


What does it say that the recent UVA & UNC teams bear more in similarity to the "old" Duke teams than what Duke is fielding these days?
Duke has turned into another factory farm for the NBA. Years after Coach K avowed he would "never" succumb to this.

Let's hope things turn around soon.

Yes, Duke and Kentucky have VERY similar recruiting strategies.

No, it is not really debatable whether or not it has been effective. Duke has had much more success since going all-in on one-and-dones: three elite-8s and a title in 5 years compared with two elite-8s and a title in the prior 10 years. And the historical tourney success of those teams landing multiple one and dones has been better than the success of teams without. No, it does not guarantee a title, as a 6-game single-elimination makes even the absolute best teams no more than a 40% chance at winning.

And let’s be clear: the UVa and UNC teams don’t resemble Duke’s best teams other than in age. Those Duke teams you reminisce about? With seniors Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Hill, etc.? They don’t exist today. Those guys are in the NBA as freshmen and sophomores in today’s game. UNC and UVa and MSU have veteran teams because they don’t have many guys with clear-cut NBA talent.

Predicting who will be a four-year guy is hard. Who thought coming in that Kennard would leave after two years? Conversely, who thought Allen would stay four years after his sophomore year? The game has changed, not the coaches. Calipari was ahead of other coaches in recognizing it. Coach K has caught up and passed him though.

[Wander]

Setting aside any moral questions or questions of effectiveness... yes, Duke and Kentucky are extremely similar programs right now.

[75Crazie]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Who cares if K and Calipari have the same goals? Every coach in the country has the same goal, to recruit good players and win the national title. Get over your sensibilities because YOU want to see kids stay at Duke for longer and develop. As long as the kids who come in play hard and try their best on and off the court, they can do what they want after their freshman year. I'm sorry that what you would prefer the program to look like isn't how it is currently going. …

FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT!

Funny, crazy pills is just what I feel like everybody is taking. You ask that we figure out what we want … I want a "Duke college basketball" program. That is not what we have now, and I want my old Duke back … and I don't care if you are sick and tired of hearing it, I for one will continue to support those that want something similar. I want a basketball program that makes use of players who WANT to be in college … and I want those who care only about professional basketball aspirations to go some different route. I realize there is no feasible alternative route today … but that is what I want to evolve, whether it is a beefed up G league or something different. I personally don't give a fig if we don't get the Marvin Bagleys or Zion Williamsons of the world, and I also do not care if the absence of those types of players means that not every Duke game of the year is on some sort of television channel. I want Duke basketball to be something that I am proud of … and my pride has disappeared.

THAT IS WHAT I WANT. And it is not necessarily a wrong desire just because it does not match yours.

[Dukehky]

Funny, crazy pills is just what I feel like everybody is taking. You ask that we figure out what we want … I want a "Duke college basketball" program. That is not what we have now, and I want my old Duke back … and I don't care if you are sick and tired of hearing it, I for one will continue to support those that want something similar. I want a basketball program that makes use of players who WANT to be in college … and I want those who care only about professional basketball aspirations to go some different route. I realize there is no feasible alternative route today … but that is what I want to evolve, whether it is a beefed up G league or something different. I personally don't give a fig if we don't get the Marvin Bagleys or Zion Williamsons of the world, and I also do not care if the absence of those types of players means that not every Duke game of the year is on some sort of television channel. I want Duke basketball to be something that I am proud of … and my pride has disappeared.

THAT IS WHAT I WANT. And it is not necessarily a wrong desire just because it does not match yours.

So you just don't like high level college basketball? Because those who care about professional aspirations are pretty standard on high level college basketball teams. Also, why is it not okay to want to be in college for one year? I'm not thrilled to have watched Marvin Bagley and Zion because they were the number 1 recruits. I was thrilled to watch them because they played hard and did what they needed to as student athletes. Marvin was a All-Academic ACC as a freshman, I'll remind you.

Ultimately, it seems as though you don't like student athletes doing what is best for them. If Zion could have gone pro after high school but still chose to come to Duke, would you feel the same.

I'm sorry you lost your pride in Duke basketball based on the fact that we have extraordinary young people who come to Duke to play basketball then go on to pursue their professional goals after a year... Seems rational.

I'll tell the kids to get off your lawn and to stop skateboarding on the sidewalk though.

[jgehtland]

Seems like a fairly useless argument to be having. They have already announced a sunset on the "1 year out of high school" age limit (colloquially known as the "one and done") rule for entrance into the NBA ranks. That will happen in the 2022 season. Between now and then, every team in the nation will pursue as many surefire NBA players as they can, just as they have always done. Starting in 2023, the board will be reset. It will be very similar to those "halcyon days of yore" where the expectations were not that you should immediately make the league after a year. And teams will fight over, lets face it, lesser talents to stack their rosters.

Those of us who do not begrudge a young person being allowed to pursue their professional ambitions will be happy for those young people, and sad that we don't get to see them lace it up in Duke blue and white for even a short period of time.

Those of us who would rather see players stick around for four years will have that opportunity.

And there isn't anything any of us can do about it; it happens in 3 years, like it or not. So enjoy the ride in the meantime, and let's see what the world looks like on Midnight Madness 2023.

[-jk]

“They have already announced a sunset on the "1 year out of high school" age limit (colloquially known as the "one and done") rule for entrance into the NBA ranks. ”

Really? I haven’t seen it as a done deal.

Linky? Please?

(I’m really tired of one and done. I think we are all!)

-jk

[jgehtland]

“They have already announced a sunset on the "1 year out of high school" age limit (colloquially known as the "one and done") rule for entrance into the NBA ranks. ”

Really? I haven’t seen it as a done deal.

Linky? Please?

(I’m really tired of one and done. I think we are all!)

-jk

You are right, it isn't official yet, my bad. Just double checked - I thought it was official, but just "likely".

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...221-story.html

[frb]

We didn't change. The players did.

Nolan, Singler, Henderson would all be one or two n dones in this era of Duke basketball.

Henderson would've been a first rounder but Singler and Nolan would have left to be 2nd rounders/undrafted? Unlikely. Nolan averaged 8 ppg as a Sophomore. He only turned into the player we remember as a Jr.

Singler may have been able to seek into the first round as a soph but most likely second round. He was considered basically an "as is" player. He's as good as he's ever gonna be right now. 09 was a very good draft.. even the second half of R1.. Jeff Teague, Jrue Holiday, Darren Collison, Taj Gibson, James Johnson, Wayne Ellington, Omri Casspi. Toney Douglas. All still in the NBA except Douglas.

[frb]

look at 05 and 06... very veteran teams. both got bounced in the round of 16. it's a tough tournament to win. Coach K is considered the GOAT by some and only won it 5 times in 40 years. He had 2 dry spells of 9 years each. I think K is the GOAT. Wooden's players were mostly purchased.. no coincidence he didn't win a title at UCLA until his 13th season. When the money rolled in.

the direction of the program is just fine. We have to recruit the best of the best each year because we are expected to win every year. Have to reload with elite recruits. If you reload with non instant impact kids, you're going to have down years until you build it back up. it would be great to have 4 senior starters but what about year 1 and 2 when those seniors probably weren't that good yet? Coach K isn't afforded "down" seasons or "rebuilding years".. a down season for him is the Elite 8.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Henderson would've been a first rounder but Singler and Nolan would have left to be 2nd rounders/undrafted? Unlikely. Nolan averaged 8 ppg as a Sophomore. He only turned into the player we remember as a Jr.

Singler may have been able to seek into the first round as a soph but most likely second round. He was considered basically an "as is" player. He's as good as he's ever gonna be right now. 09 was a very good draft.. even the second half of R1.. Jeff Teague, Jrue Holiday, Darren Collison, Taj Gibson, James Johnson, Wayne Ellington, Omri Casspi. Toney Douglas. All still in the NBA except Douglas.

Yeah, it's not like players weren't going early back in the late 2000's. Guys like Nolan, Singler, and Scheyer were all in that weird sweet spot where their physical and skill profiles made them outstanding college players but not great NBA prospects. But plenty of other guys from their classes went pro after a year.

[Furniture]

Both are reacting to what the NBA is handing them. That's a given; they're both really good.

I think K is handling it better.

K doesn't chase players off, but actually welcomes marginal first rounders back. With open arms!

Calipari's won one NCAA, and missed it entirely another time. K's won two in the last 10 years (3 in 20); one with OaD players and one without, and hasn't missed in decades.

UVa? It's UVa's first final four in decades. (We have baggage so I won't emphasize last year - we came close enough in '86.) It's not easy for anyone, no matter how good a program they have.

Izzo? He has a reputation, but really hasn't covered.

unc cheated so aggressively for decades (and I'm absolutely sure they still do, just better; it's built into their "Way"), that they don't count in any way, shape, or form.

Nova? They would be a more interesting question...

-jk

someone else listened to Jason’s podcast summary then....